Tatum Has Entered the MVP Race

[Vermont Green]

My honest opinion is that Jokic, Giannis, and Embiid are in a tier of their own this season and Tatum - when also considering his slow start to the season - is not on that level.

If we get an entire season of this out of him next year, I expect that my stance will be entirely different.

If we end up with that one seed in the East he has to be in consideration.

Both these things are true at the same time.  Tatum will be in consideration but after consideration, it will be determined that he is behind Embiid, Jokic, and Giannis.  He has gained ground on these other players through the course of the season but he has not surpassed them just yet.

Even with the injuries, Durant will still be in the discussion also.  Without him, the Nets aren't even in the playoffs.  But again, after discussion, it will be determined that he didn't play enough games so it will go to one of the top 3

[Roy H.]

A guy who probably deserves more consideration than he gets is Booker.  26 / 5 / 5 on a team that's on pace for 66 wins or so.

I think his name not coming up is partially due to Kiorrik's theory:  voters attribute the Suns success to a team effort, rather than one player carrying them to victory.  Also, of course, many give CP3 a ton of credit there, which by extension lessens Booker's perceived impact.

[Kiorrik]

A guy who probably deserves more consideration than he gets is Booker.  26 / 5 / 5 on a team that's on pace for 66 wins or so.

I think his name not coming up is partially due to Kiorrik's theory:  voters attribute the Suns success to a team effort, rather than one player carrying them to victory.  Also, of course, many give CP3 a ton of credit there, which by extension lessens Booker's perceived impact.

I find that last sentence interesting because you're not wrong; I personally see the Suns as CP3 + Booker. Not Booker + CP3.

Even though if I do think about it for a couple more seconds, it's CP3's brain with Booker's execution. Which means Booker is the guy doing the work. And possibly doing the brain stuff in the future too.

[Moranis]

A guy who probably deserves more consideration than he gets is Booker.  26 / 5 / 5 on a team that's on pace for 66 wins or so.

I think his name not coming up is partially due to Kiorrik's theory:  voters attribute the Suns success to a team effort, rather than one player carrying them to victory.  Also, of course, many give CP3 a ton of credit there, which by extension lessens Booker's perceived impact.

I think it is much more that people aren't even sure Booker is better than Paul, and if you aren't even the surefire best player on your team, how can you be the MVP of the entire league. 

[Roy H.]

A guy who probably deserves more consideration than he gets is Booker.  26 / 5 / 5 on a team that's on pace for 66 wins or so.

I think his name not coming up is partially due to Kiorrik's theory:  voters attribute the Suns success to a team effort, rather than one player carrying them to victory.  Also, of course, many give CP3 a ton of credit there, which by extension lessens Booker's perceived impact.

I think it is much more that people aren't even sure Booker is better than Paul, and if you aren't even the surefire best player on your team, how can you be the MVP of the entire league.

Isn't that the same argument, worded differently?

[Kiorrik]

A guy who probably deserves more consideration than he gets is Booker.  26 / 5 / 5 on a team that's on pace for 66 wins or so.

I think his name not coming up is partially due to Kiorrik's theory:  voters attribute the Suns success to a team effort, rather than one player carrying them to victory.  Also, of course, many give CP3 a ton of credit there, which by extension lessens Booker's perceived impact.

I think it is much more that people aren't even sure Booker is better than Paul, and if you aren't even the surefire best player on your team, how can you be the MVP of the entire league.

Isn't that the same argument, worded differently?

No not at all

Instead, it's what you said but with alternate vocabulary.

[A Future of Stevens]

A guy who probably deserves more consideration than he gets is Booker.  26 / 5 / 5 on a team that's on pace for 66 wins or so.

I think his name not coming up is partially due to Kiorrik's theory:  voters attribute the Suns success to a team effort, rather than one player carrying them to victory.  Also, of course, many give CP3 a ton of credit there, which by extension lessens Booker's perceived impact.

I think it is much more that people aren't even sure Booker is better than Paul, and if you aren't even the surefire best player on your team, how can you be the MVP of the entire league.

Isn't that the same argument, worded differently?

No not at all

Instead, it's what you said but with alternate vocabulary.

Haha that was awesome. 

[Moranis]

A guy who probably deserves more consideration than he gets is Booker.  26 / 5 / 5 on a team that's on pace for 66 wins or so.

I think his name not coming up is partially due to Kiorrik's theory:  voters attribute the Suns success to a team effort, rather than one player carrying them to victory.  Also, of course, many give CP3 a ton of credit there, which by extension lessens Booker's perceived impact.

I think it is much more that people aren't even sure Booker is better than Paul, and if you aren't even the surefire best player on your team, how can you be the MVP of the entire league.

Isn't that the same argument, worded differently?

I don't think it is a team effort thing at all.  I think it is solely because many people believe Paul is the best player.  So I agree with the 2nd part of your argument, but not the 1st.

[Who]

Suns record with CP3 49 wins 10 losses (68 win pace)
Suns record without CP3 11 wins 4 losses (60 win pace)

Suns showing themselves to be a very good team without CP3 this season. Cameron Payne averaging 14.1ppg and 9.5apg in 11 starts this season. Booker stepping up without CP3. Bridges and Ayton continue to get better.

Does CP3 get too much credit for what is happening in PHO? Does Booker get too little? Does Bridges (14ppg 63% TS% All-Defense) and Ayton (17ppg 10reb) get too little? Does their bench (Payne, C.Johnson, McGee) get too little?

I say yes to each one of those.

[liam]

You right though.

He'll win Finals MVP along with Banner #18 this June 

TP

[Roy H.]

Does CP3 get too much credit for what is happening in PHO? Does Booker get too little? Does Bridges (14ppg 63% TS% All-Defense) and Ayton (17ppg 10reb) get too little? Does their bench (Payne, C.Johnson, McGee) get too little?

I say yes to each one of those.

Agreed.  CP3 makes a difference, but every one of those players is integral.  If anything, they just showed that they're an elite team even without Paul.

[Vermont Green]

Does CP3 get too much credit for what is happening in PHO? Does Booker get too little? Does Bridges (14ppg 63% TS% All-Defense) and Ayton (17ppg 10reb) get too little? Does their bench (Payne, C.Johnson, McGee) get too little?

I say yes to each one of those.

Agreed.  CP3 makes a difference, but every one of those players is integral.  If anything, they just showed that they're an elite team even without Paul.

There are parallels between the Suns/Booker and the Celtics/Tatum.  I view Tatum as a better overall player than Booker and a more "valuable" player, but I am a Celtics fan.  I suspect the rest of the world of fans sees them more on par and both behind the upper tier of stars that includes (in no particular order):

Durant
Harden
Embiid
Giannis
Jokic
James

I think a major changing of the guard is eminent though.  Harden and James in particular may be starting to wear out.  Durant has had persistent durability issues.  Embiid could break at any point it seems.  Giannis and Jokic are likely not going anywhere anytime soon but there is still room for the likes of Tatum, Doncic, and Booker (and a few others) to move up into some of those upper elite top spots.  Just not right now or for this round of the MVP.

[Moranis]

Suns record with CP3 49 wins 10 losses (68 win pace)
Suns record without CP3 11 wins 4 losses (60 win pace)

Suns showing themselves to be a very good team without CP3 this season. Cameron Payne averaging 14.1ppg and 9.5apg in 11 starts this season. Booker stepping up without CP3. Bridges and Ayton continue to get better.

Does CP3 get too much credit for what is happening in PHO? Does Booker get too little? Does Bridges (14ppg 63% TS% All-Defense) and Ayton (17ppg 10reb) get too little? Does their bench (Payne, C.Johnson, McGee) get too little?

I say yes to each one of those.

Suns are 8-3 without Booker as well (also basically a 60 win pace).  If the Suns would have had a big drop off without Booker, then I think he would have a stronger argument, but the Suns didn't really drop off much without him either.  They are also 18-3 without Ayton, so his value is clearly not as much as the other 2 guys in the "big 3".

Booker isn't a MVP candidate because there is a question of whether or not he is the Suns best player, and you can never have that question and be a MVP candidate.  It is the same reason Paul isn't a MVP candidate either and it probably hurt Paul's case last year when he finished 5th (where there was less of a question regarding him and Booker).

[Kernewek]

Okay hear me out

I think perhaps he has less of a chance, because he's on a TEAM team.

We're kicking the snot outta people because we've played gorgeous team basketball. Yes Tatum has been the best player on our team. Yes you could make a case that right now he's the best player, on the best team. By a mile too. Not even close.

But I can sure imagine people not voting for him because he'd be in content "because the Celtics are winning".

Personally, I don't think this is the case, I actually think the opposite.  It's because the Celtics aren't winning enough.

We all know the Celtics are doing great right now, but we can't ignore the terrible first half of the season.

If the C's were doing this all year and had a record like Phoenix's, expected to finish in the mid-to-upper 60's for total wins (the C's current 23-4 stretch puts them on pace for 70 wins over a full season), Tatum would probably be the favorite to win.

A lot of MVP voters probably think like Shaq, who just recently compared the Celtics to the Bulls,  and whIle I disagree with his views on the Celtics, I can't blame him, I wouldn't want DeMar DeRozan getting MVP or All-NBA votes over Tatum because the Bulls had a great first half.

You got to lead your team all year to win MVP, not half a season.

Agreed with BDM about why Tatum probably won’t win MVP.

Agreed with whoever said they’d rather see him win Finals MVP anyway

[Moranis]

Does CP3 get too much credit for what is happening in PHO? Does Booker get too little? Does Bridges (14ppg 63% TS% All-Defense) and Ayton (17ppg 10reb) get too little? Does their bench (Payne, C.Johnson, McGee) get too little?

I say yes to each one of those.

Agreed.  CP3 makes a difference, but every one of those players is integral.  If anything, they just showed that they're an elite team even without Paul.

There are parallels between the Suns/Booker and the Celtics/Tatum.  I view Tatum as a better overall player than Booker and a more "valuable" player, but I am a Celtics fan.  I suspect the rest of the world of fans sees them more on par and both behind the upper tier of stars that includes (in no particular order):

Durant
Harden
Embiid
Giannis
Jokic
James

I think a major changing of the guard is eminent though.  Harden and James in particular may be starting to wear out.  Durant has had persistent durability issues.  Embiid could break at any point it seems.  Giannis and Jokic are likely not going anywhere anytime soon but there is still room for the likes of Tatum, Doncic, and Booker (and a few others) to move up into some of those upper elite top spots.  Just not right now or for this round of the MVP.

The numbers don't bear that out.  Bridges has by FAR the best on/off differential per 100 on the Suns at +9.0.  Booker is just +2.9 and Paul is only slightly better at +3.0.  Tatum on the oth is an elite +13.6.  He has only missed 4 games and Boston went 2-2 (which is actually better than Boston historically does when Tatum sits).  Of the rest of the starters for the C's, Smart is +5.6, Rob is +5.5, Brown is +5.5, and Horford is +3.1.  Tatum is not only unquestioned as Boston's best player, the team also plays its best when he is on the floor, and does poorly when he sits. 

So the numbers absolutely support that Tatum is a more valuable to Boston than Booker is to the Suns, and Tatum has better numbers and has played more games.  Tatum should clearly be ahead of Booker for post season awards and on the all nba team.  It isn't really close.