Zach Lowe’s All-NBA

[seancally]

Lowe has a podcast with Arnovitz where he sets his All-NBA ballot.

First team:
Embiid
Jokic
Giannis
Luka
Curry

Second team:
KAT
Durant
Lebron
Morant
CP3

Third team:
Gobert
Tatum
Derozan
Booker
Trae Young/Donovan Mitchell (couldn’t actually tell which one he has ahead right now)

So… how do we feel about that? I have trouble rewarding Lebron for leading a Lakers team to a record that’s currently 10 games below .500, especially after the hate Beal and others have gotten in the past for having losing records despite great individual performances.

Durant has missed over a third of the season, yet in this ballot gets the nod over Tatum for 2nd team.

This all happens because Lowe thinks Jokic/Embiid/Giannis must all be 1st team, despite positional redundancy. Not sure what he would’ve done in seasons where Shaq and Hakeem dominated the league.

[aefgogreen]

ha, I'm actually listening to it right now!  Lebron's lack of team success bumps him off the first team but I have no problem putting him on the second team. I'd still like to have Tatum on the second team - I'd either move Lebron to guard and bump CP3 or start three forwards (if that's possible) and bump KAT to third team.  But I don't think Lebron on the second team over Tatum is ridiculous.  There's cases to be made for both (Lebron the GM has been awful, but I'm not sure you can take that into account). 

My gripe is that making an All NBA team determines whether or not you can get the supermax. We saw Tatum get screwed last year.  Journalists should not be making this choice and I have yet to hear one NBA writer say they want this responsibility.

[hpantazo]

There's no way both Embiid and Jokic should make it , fully due to position. It's not the MVP race leaderboard, it's all NBA team. Put one of them on the second team and move KAT to 3rd team. Tatum has now earned 1st team imo.

[Atzar]

All-NBA voting should not be left to writers whose priorities and emphases change with the weather. 

[Moranis]

I have a hard time putting Embiid and Jokic both on the 1st team even though they both deserve it.  They are both clearly centers and adjusting their positions means someone like Gobert gets on the 3rd team over far more deserving forwards.  You can't just mess with history like that (throughout the 60's Wilt and Bill were the 2 best players in the world, 1 was 1st Team, the other was 2nd team and guys like Thurmond (2nd in MVP in voting in 67) didn't even make a team).

As for things like Durant and Lebron, the All NBA is much more a stat based, rather than value based discussion such that team record doesn't come as much into play and you can miss some more games than the MVP, DPOY, etc..  Lebron is leading the league in scoring on a solid efficiency and has good rebound and assist stats.  He has missed some games, but not enough to bar him from a team.  Durant is a much closer case as he missed a lot of games.  I'd have a hard time putting him on any team, though if he gets up to 55 it is at least arguable (still not enough for me personally).

[aefgogreen]

I have a hard time putting Embiid and Jokic both on the 1st team even though they both deserve it.  They are both clearly centers and adjusting their positions means someone like Gobert gets on the 3rd team over far more deserving forwards.  You can't just mess with history like that (throughout the 60's Wilt and Bill were the 2 best players in the world, 1 was 1st Team, the other was 2nd team and guys like Thurmond (2nd in MVP in voting in 67) didn't even make a team).

As for things like Durant and Lebron, the All NBA is much more a stat based, rather than value based discussion such that team record doesn't come as much into play and you can miss some more games than the MVP, DPOY, etc..  Lebron is leading the league in scoring on a solid efficiency and has good rebound and assist stats.  He has missed some games, but not enough to bar him from a team.  Durant is a much closer case as he missed a lot of games.  I'd have a hard time putting him on any team, though if he gets up to 55 it is at least arguable (still not enough for me personally).

I disagree - I think the NBA has become more postion-less and have no problem putting both Embid and Jokic on the first team.  Especially when you take Jokic's passing and shooting skills into account.

[footey]

I listened to it as well. Kevin Arnovitz, on the same POD, had Derosan and Tatum deadlocked for one of the forward positions on the 2nd team, and seemed to be leaning more toward Tatum due to his defensive superiority. Their offensive numbers are pretty close.

Kevin also had Lebron as first team by the way.

[hpantazo]

I have a hard time putting Embiid and Jokic both on the 1st team even though they both deserve it.  They are both clearly centers and adjusting their positions means someone like Gobert gets on the 3rd team over far more deserving forwards.  You can't just mess with history like that (throughout the 60's Wilt and Bill were the 2 best players in the world, 1 was 1st Team, the other was 2nd team and guys like Thurmond (2nd in MVP in voting in 67) didn't even make a team).

As for things like Durant and Lebron, the All NBA is much more a stat based, rather than value based discussion such that team record doesn't come as much into play and you can miss some more games than the MVP, DPOY, etc..  Lebron is leading the league in scoring on a solid efficiency and has good rebound and assist stats.  He has missed some games, but not enough to bar him from a team.  Durant is a much closer case as he missed a lot of games.  I'd have a hard time putting him on any team, though if he gets up to 55 it is at least arguable (still not enough for me personally).

Unfortunately emphasizing stats over team record did not apply last season when many people pointed to the Celtics team record for Tatum not making the all-NBA team.

[Moranis]

I have a hard time putting Embiid and Jokic both on the 1st team even though they both deserve it.  They are both clearly centers and adjusting their positions means someone like Gobert gets on the 3rd team over far more deserving forwards.  You can't just mess with history like that (throughout the 60's Wilt and Bill were the 2 best players in the world, 1 was 1st Team, the other was 2nd team and guys like Thurmond (2nd in MVP in voting in 67) didn't even make a team).

As for things like Durant and Lebron, the All NBA is much more a stat based, rather than value based discussion such that team record doesn't come as much into play and you can miss some more games than the MVP, DPOY, etc..  Lebron is leading the league in scoring on a solid efficiency and has good rebound and assist stats.  He has missed some games, but not enough to bar him from a team.  Durant is a much closer case as he missed a lot of games.  I'd have a hard time putting him on any team, though if he gets up to 55 it is at least arguable (still not enough for me personally).

Unfortunately emphasizing stats over team record did not apply last season when many people pointed to the Celtics team record for Tatum not making the all-NBA team.

Tatum's stats were in the same general range as Butler and George though who were both better defenders that Tatum as well.  No issue with team record serving as a sort of tiebreaker. 

[Atzar]

I have a hard time putting Embiid and Jokic both on the 1st team even though they both deserve it.  They are both clearly centers and adjusting their positions means someone like Gobert gets on the 3rd team over far more deserving forwards.  You can't just mess with history like that (throughout the 60's Wilt and Bill were the 2 best players in the world, 1 was 1st Team, the other was 2nd team and guys like Thurmond (2nd in MVP in voting in 67) didn't even make a team).

As for things like Durant and Lebron, the All NBA is much more a stat based, rather than value based discussion such that team record doesn't come as much into play and you can miss some more games than the MVP, DPOY, etc..  Lebron is leading the league in scoring on a solid efficiency and has good rebound and assist stats.  He has missed some games, but not enough to bar him from a team.  Durant is a much closer case as he missed a lot of games.  I'd have a hard time putting him on any team, though if he gets up to 55 it is at least arguable (still not enough for me personally).

Unfortunately emphasizing stats over team record did not apply last season when many people pointed to the Celtics team record for Tatum not making the all-NBA team.

Tatum's stats were in the same general range as Butler and George though who were both better defenders that Tatum as well.  No issue with team record serving as a sort of tiebreaker.

Yeah, it's worth remembering that Tatum's commitment on that end from last year to this one is night and day.  This year, it's justifiable to bump Tatum over Derozan and perhaps even Lebron on the basis of superior defense.  Last year he earned no such credit.  The whole team quit playing defense, and Tatum was as guilty as anybody.

[tazzmaniac]

In this era of positional basketball with starting all-stars being selected as 2 guards and 3 bigs, I don't see why all-NBA should be done by position.  Especially with player's contracts potentially being affected by all-NBA selection, the 1st team all-NBA ought to be the best 5 for the year. 

No one has mentioned that 4 of his top 5 are foreign born with 3 of those coming straight from Europe to the NBA. 

[Donoghus]

In this era of positional basketball with starting all-stars being selected as 2 guards and 3 bigs, I don't see why all-NBA should be done by position.  Especially with player's contracts potentially being affected by all-NBA selection, the 1st team all-NBA ought to be the best 5 for the year. 

No one has mentioned that 4 of his top 5 are foreign born with 3 of those coming straight from Europe to the NBA.

Absolutely.

[nickagneta]

If you put two centers on the 1st team, then the opposite should be okay on the other teams....no centers. The same holds true with other positions.

Gobert doesn't deserve an All-NBA nod so if 3rd team has no center, so be it. And Tatum and DeRozan are more 2nd team deserving than either Paul or Morant or Lebron. Move the PGs to 3rd team and have a no PG 2nd team.

[gouki88]

Tatum ahead of Durant. He's played 24 more games, his team is much better, Tatum is a much better defender and statistically not much separates them on offence.

[jambr380]

If you put two centers on the 1st team, then the opposite should be okay on the other teams....no centers. The same holds true with other positions.

Gobert doesn't deserve an All-NBA nod so if 3rd team has no center, so be it. And Tatum and DeRozan are more 2nd team deserving than either Paul or Morant or Lebron. Move the PGs to 3rd team and have a no PG 2nd team.

I agree with this. No way they can conceivably put 2 full-time definite Centers on the same team. If that happens, then it should just be a ranking of the top 15 players this season (5 for each team). And Tatum is definitely in the top 10.