Double-big front court working, surprised?

[RodyTur10]

For years I have been advocating for a double-big line-up. Loved the Horford/Baynes tandem for example.
But it seemed like the traditional big power forward was really going away in modern NBA.
I thought it couldn't work anymore with Horford and Robert Williams.
Boy, have I been wrong. They complement each other so well on defense.

Reminding me of the great partnership of Millsap/Horford we had to face in Atlanta.
And here's also a point I'm trying to make. For me the position you play is the position you defend.
The funny part is that Horford is mainly defending centers in the post, while Williams is lurking on the perimeter ready to drop chase blocks. So in my opinion Robert Williams is actually the power forward in practice.
He's playing the same role on defense as Antetokounmpo.

[Roy H.]

I am surprised. 

I didn't think Horford had it in him to be a power forward any more.  That was mostly based upon his time in Philly, which didn't work out.  Was that just incompetent coaching?  Obviously, you're not going to maximize Horford's talents on a team that has Embiid, Simmons and Harris, but he shouldn't have looked as bad as he did.

I do think that our future after Horford will probably involve a stretch four rather than a traditional PF.  I'm hoping the team doesn't try to go with a Theis / Timelord starting lineup if Horford departs.  But, for this season the two big lineup has been excellent in a way that I definitely wasn't expecting.

[jambr380]

After the Tristan/Theis situation of last year, I can definitely say that I am somewhat surprised. I don't think it would work well with just any two bigs, but these two complement each other quite well. I also think Tatum has come into his own as a SF, where I think he used to be more effective using his athleticism against other PFs. Now he can essentially play whatever position he wants.

[ozgod]

It's interesting because Timelord is mainly the 5 on offensive sets where he sets the screens for the ball handler and is the rim roller with Al stretching the floor as a stretch 4 on the wings and in the corner, while on defensive sets Al is the one that defends the opposition big (or main screen setter) while Timelord defends one of the wings in the corner so he can be the one providing the help defending the rim. And they can easily swap roles if the opposition tries to pull Timelord out above the key. Because they have complementary skills, and Al still has the size to bang with players like Jokic and Embiid when they try to post him up, it's worked well.

[colincb]

No. I expected that TL and AH would work defensively. Didn't know how much AH had left offensively but knew he had played well in OKC. Didn't know that TL would be able to stay on the court, but I expected him to be good.

PF and PG were the great unknowns.

[Kernewek]

It's interesting because Timelord is mainly the 5 on offensive sets where he sets the screens for the ball handler and is the rim roller with Al stretching the floor as a stretch 4 on the wings and in the corner, while on defensive sets Al is the one that defends the opposition big (or main screen setter) while Timelord defends one of the wings in the corner so he can be the one providing the help defending the rim. And they can easily swap roles if the opposition tries to pull Timelord out above the key. Because they have complementary skills, and Al still has the size to bang with players like Jokic and Embiid when they try to post him up, it's worked well.

Good post. I'm not really sure how 'traditional' the Timelord/Horford pairing is in practice, even though looking at their nominal positions you see 'big guy at C, big guy at PF'.

[Goldstar88]

It’s working because of Timelords quickness. He can cover quicker 4’s and is extremely agile for a 5. Al also has looked spryer than most thought he would.

[liam]

Al's shot was not there earlier in the year but as long as he's a threat from outside ( not even necessarily all the way to the 3 point line...) it works on offense and it works on defense because both of the bigs can guard pretty much anyone. I wanted more shooting on the floor but both Al and Timelord are offensive threats and Smart's shooting got better in this new year. I am surprised it rounded into shape.

[sgrogan]

It's interesting because Timelord is mainly the 5 on offensive sets where he sets the screens for the ball handler and is the rim roller with Al stretching the floor as a stretch 4 on the wings and in the corner, while on defensive sets Al is the one that defends the opposition big (or main screen setter) while Timelord defends one of the wings in the corner so he can be the one providing the help defending the rim. And they can easily swap roles if the opposition tries to pull Timelord out above the key. Because they have complementary skills, and Al still has the size to bang with players like Jokic and Embiid when they try to post him up, it's worked well.

TP
I think this sums it up.
When RWIII switches out top, they just can't drive by him. Al's still a second line of defense. Same is true in reverse. The numbers are pretty staggering. #1 net, #1 points allowed, #1 2P%, #1 3p%, #1 least assists against.

[Surferdad]

...For me the position you play is the position you defend.
...

Yes me too, but I think a lot of folks don't look at it that way, at least initially.

[Hoopvortex]

And here's also a point I'm trying to make. For me the position you play is the position you defend.
The funny part is that Horford is mainly defending centers in the post, while Williams is lurking on the perimeter ready to drop chase blocks. So in my opinion Robert Williams is actually the power forward in practice.

It’s about time people noticed that.

Following on that, it’s worth asking if it even makes sense to keep using the old antiquated names like “power forward”.

[Celtics2021]

It's interesting because Timelord is mainly the 5 on offensive sets where he sets the screens for the ball handler and is the rim roller with Al stretching the floor as a stretch 4 on the wings and in the corner, while on defensive sets Al is the one that defends the opposition big (or main screen setter) while Timelord defends one of the wings in the corner so he can be the one providing the help defending the rim. And they can easily swap roles if the opposition tries to pull Timelord out above the key. Because they have complementary skills, and Al still has the size to bang with players like Jokic and Embiid when they try to post him up, it's worked well.

This is what I thought would happen at the time of the trade.

With Williams, I think the theory is he'd (Horford) be a 4 on offense and a 5 on defense, and vice versa for TimeLord.  I'm not personally sold on that lineup, but I expect it will get a chance for a few minutes a game unless Williams is traded away.

It's gone far better than I ever hoped it would, but the offensive and defensive alignment of the two hasn't surprised me.

[sgrogan]

And here's also a point I'm trying to make. For me the position you play is the position you defend.
The funny part is that Horford is mainly defending centers in the post, while Williams is lurking on the perimeter ready to drop chase blocks. So in my opinion Robert Williams is actually the power forward in practice.

It’s about time people noticed that.

Following on that, it’s worth asking if it even makes sense to keep using the old antiquated names like “power forward”.

You need a name to draw up generic plays. If you know the 10 guys on the floor you can just use names. It's the roles attached to the names that matters.

[Moranis]

Cleveland and Memphis have had great success with multiple big man lineups as well.  I know Giannis isn't a traditional big, but he is a giant of a man who played next to Lopez last year on the way to a title.  Toronto won with Gasol and Ibaka playing decent minutes together (though Ibaka didn't start).  Size is still the hardest thing to get.  The size just has to be good enough. 

[nickagneta]

For a long time after Baynes left, this fan base had a height fetish and the complaints about only having undersized bigs like Theis, Timelord and Horford we're littered across this blog. Some were clamouring for Enes and Tacko to get much more minutes because only bigs like that could propel this team past bigs like Embiid in the playoffs.

I'm glad those voices went quiet and it's been proven you don't have to have guys that are 7 foot tall or taller to properly defend great bigs and get past their teams in the playoffs.