Greatest What If (Injury Edition)

[Kernewek]

Len Bias

Sadly yes.

Is a cocaine overdose an injury?

It is if you ask Kenny Powers
https://youtu.be/z9bQ4xOtPkc

I’m too young for prime Walton so for my eye test it would probably be Grant Hill or Penny, but I voted Penny

[Moranis]

I am not certain that Magic would not have won another title if he had of kept playing.

I re-watched the entire Bulls-Lakers Finals recently and the Bulls bench was the biggest difference in that series. Lakers had no backup guards or wings that they could rely on for any type of positive contribution. Whenever they would come into the game, they would lose ground. Whenever Magic went to the bench, they would lose ground. The Lakers had 6-7 players in that series that they could rely on against a 10-11 man Bulls team. They had 4 guys above 41mpg because they could not trust their bench (one of the worst in the league).

The Lakers would solid FA additions to round out their depth would have taken that team to another level. Add in the injuries to Worthy and Byron Scott. Add in the youth and upwards trajectory of both Divac and Elden Campbell (a pup in 1991 Finals).

They had a few of the Lakers 1992 preseason games on youtube before Magic had to retire and they looked phenomenal in those games. Better understanding of when to run and when to play halfcourt. More depth. The Lakers struggled for most of 1991 learning / adapting to Mike Dunleavy's system. They caught fire late in the year and made an unexpected run to the Finals. This team could've been much better in 1992 after making that adjustment and now being able to add to and improve on that system.

Magic played 45.6 mpg that series which is a lot, but Jordan was at 44 and Pippen was at 43.6.  I don't think the bench would have really overcome the difference that was Jordan and Pippen vs. Magic and Worthy, especially as Magic was on the back end of his prime while Jordan and Pippen were in their mid-20's.  The Lakers needed another really high end player to come while Magic was still an All NBA level player (and Worthy was still very good) and I just don't know how they were going to get that player.  By the time Divac really came into his own, Magic would have been way past his prime.  And Worthy was out of the league at age 32 after the 94 season (after being a 20 mpg, 10 point scorer off the bench).  maybe he sticks around if Magic is still there, but maybe not, but either way he wasn't a top level player. 

I just don't see how the Lakers beat the Bulls in 92 or 93 and I don't think they were going to be good enough to beat the Rockets, Magic, or even the Knicks in the 94 and 95 seasons (if not other teams).

[Jvalin]

Arvydas Sabonis.

This. I don't even think it's close. Prime Sabas was a GOAT candidate in my book. If he had entered the NBA in his late teens/early 20s, I bet he would have been in the same convo with Kareem/Wilt/Russ/Dream/Shaq. Talent-wise, I think he was better than all of them. The way I see it, he was a rich man's Jokic. No disrespect to the brilliance of the Joker, but I fully believe prime Sabas was hands down the better player. Likewise, I think Jokic is a rich man's prime Walton (although Walton was definitely a better rim protector).

A couple more names:

Magic. If it weren't for the HIV diagnosis, I believe he would have had a better GOAT case than Jordan. Personally speaking, I consider him the GOAT regardless, but I realise he doesn't have the longevity of some of the other candidates.

Drazen. Imo, he was the first Steph Curry. Most elite shooters are off-ball specialists (for instance, Klay, Reggie). Drazen was a god-level shooter who could also put the ball on the floor and create his own shot. Steph is a better ball handler/facilitator, but Drazen was 3 inches taller, hence he was better at creating his own shot, especially in the clutch. He was also a ruthless competitor who thrived under pressure. The only player ever who wasn't afraid to regularly talk trash to prime Jordan and could actually back it up.

Magic had 12 years before he had to walk away.  He was 31 and would be 32 before the next season started.  I'm not sure how much he would have had left.  He'd certainly be 1st or 2nd in assists, but I don't think his GOAT case fails because he is 6th instead of top 2, and I don't think the Lakers would have won another title.  The Bulls beat them in 5 in 91 and I don't know how much better they would have gotten as Magic and Worthy aged even with Divac coming up.  Now maybe if Shaq still would have come there, Magic could have picked up a title when he was in late 30's, but again I don't think that makes his GOAT case.

Jordan won 3 championships from the age of 33 to 35. Had he retired at the age of 31 (like Magic did), the ring count would have been comfortably in favour of Magic. Likewise, if Magic had won just one of MJ's five championships post 1991, the ring count would have tipped in favour of Magic.

Obviously, none of these really matter. Ring count isn't the only factor, otherwise Bill Russell would have been the undisputed GOAT. Talent-wise, I've seen enough from Magic in his 12 years to put him ahead of everybody else, including Jordan. My case is rather simple. Basketball is a team game. Maximizing the impact of the whole team is more important than maximizing the impact of an individual player. Why? Because nobody is good enough to win by himself. Magic is the GOAT at elevating his teammates, hence I believe he's the GOAT in general.

What could Magic have done, aside from win titles, that would have altered the GOAT perception of him?  That is what I was asking about.  Jordan only played 13 seasons in Chicago (including the season he came back during).  It isn't like he played a lot longer than Magic, so longevity isn't a factor when you look at those 2.  So if Magic didn't win any more titles, do you think the added stats or seasons of solid win percentages would have actually altered the narrative?  I don't.  I think Magic would have needed more titles to really enter the discussion, and I don't' think he gets them because Worthy, quite simply, wasn't in the same class of player as Pippen and I don't think Magic's game was really conducive to be the guy the same way Jordan's was.  Magic was never a scorer, he needed scoring teammates, and I just don't think the Lakers were going to be good enough in the early 90's to overcome the Bulls (if they actually made it there), without a dramatic change in teammates for the Lakers.

What do you mean ''aside from winning titles''? Most fans measure greatness by counting rings. Jordan got 6. Magic got 5. Jordan must have been better. As simple as that. Again, if Magic had won just one of MJ's five championships post 1991, the GOAT conversation would have been waaaay different. Imagine if Jordan had never came back after his first retirement in 1993. That's basically what happened to Magic. 

Magic never relied on athleticism. He was playing the game as a thinker. Elite-BBIQ players find a way to stay effective even in their late 30s/early 40s. For instance, LeBron, Duncan, Stockton, CP3, Nash, Kidd, Manu, Pau, etc. Magic had even developed a 3pt shot. He also led the league in FT% in 1989. More often than not, FT% is indicative of shooting potential. I see no reason to believe Magic's game would have aged worse than Jordan's. If anything, Jordan relied on athleticism more than Magic.

The way I see it, the Lakers would have been legit conteders for at least 3-4 extra years. I mean, Magic was only 31 when he announced his retirement. Fwiw, Vlade was no scrub. He was a terrific option in the half court either as a scorer or as a facilitator. Personally speaking, I'm relatively low on Worthy, but he's obviously an all-time great.