Author Topic: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?  (Read 7438 times)

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Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2022, 10:20:14 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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For what it's worth, Hoopshype did a survey of NBA front offices in the offseason and had them rate publicly-available advanced stat metrics.  There were four metrics that were used by one or more front offices as their primary go-to metric: RAPTOR, LEBRON, EPM, and, DPM.  Tatum ranked 6th, 8th, 10th, and 11th in those four, respectively.  However, DPM uses a lot of past performance in its ranking (which is probably why it's the most trusted in the NBA because it is less subject to the effects of small sample-size), but that means that it has Kawhi, who hasn't played this season and is likely out all year, ranks ahead of Tatum based on past performance.  So of players who've seen at least one minute of action this year, Tatum was top-10 in all 4.  There were 19 players in the top ten of at least one of these metrics (excluding the injured Kawhi), but Tatum was one of only 5 to make the top-10 in all four.

In other words, analytics would give a pretty resounding yes that Tatum is top-10, but probably not top 5.

Note: I used the per-minute values for all of these rankings at whatever default minutes a particular stat used.  But Tatum has also played a ton of minutes, and scores even higher when you use a total wins version of these stats, rather than something which is minutes or possessions-adjusted.  He's top 5 in the three stats (Raptor, LEBRON, and EPM) that offer this calculation.

I suspect that the vast majority of front offices don't use any of those crap metrics.  :D

Quote
“I don’t really use any,” said one executive, who is the president of basketball operations for a team in the Eastern Conference. “They are all pretty bad.”

Quote
Among the 29 individuals who participated in our survey, six said that EPM was their preferred catch-all metric. That was the second-most among all metrics. Eleven others said that they trust EPM as an all-in-one metric while only one said that they did not.

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Among the 29 individuals who participated in our survey, eight (8) said that DPM was their preferred catch-all metric. That was the most among all metrics. Ten (10) others said that they trust DPM as an all-in-one metric while only one (1) said that they did not.

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Among the 29 individuals who participated in our survey, four said that LEBRON was their preferred catch-all metric. Fourteen others said that they trust LEBRON as an all-in-one metric while two said that they did not.

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Among the 29 individuals who participated in our survey, six said that RAPTOR was their preferred catch-all metric, which made it the third-most-popular in that regard. Eight others said that they trust RAPTOR as an all-in-one metric but an additional seven said that they did not.

That’s 17-18 of 29 respondents who either prefer or trust DPM, EPM, and LEBRON, and 14 of 29 for RAPTOR.  Only 1-2 respondents didn’t trust the first three.  RAPTOR did less well in that regard, but still far from a “vast majority” (studies have shown it performs less well when sample sizes is limited by minutes).
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 10:33:16 AM by Celtics2021 »

Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2022, 10:34:45 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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For what it's worth, Hoopshype did a survey of NBA front offices in the offseason and had them rate publicly-available advanced stat metrics.  There were four metrics that were used by one or more front offices as their primary go-to metric: RAPTOR, LEBRON, EPM, and, DPM.  Tatum ranked 6th, 8th, 10th, and 11th in those four, respectively.  However, DPM uses a lot of past performance in its ranking (which is probably why it's the most trusted in the NBA because it is less subject to the effects of small sample-size), but that means that it has Kawhi, who hasn't played this season and is likely out all year, ranks ahead of Tatum based on past performance.  So of players who've seen at least one minute of action this year, Tatum was top-10 in all 4.  There were 19 players in the top ten of at least one of these metrics (excluding the injured Kawhi), but Tatum was one of only 5 to make the top-10 in all four.

In other words, analytics would give a pretty resounding yes that Tatum is top-10, but probably not top 5.

Note: I used the per-minute values for all of these rankings at whatever default minutes a particular stat used.  But Tatum has also played a ton of minutes, and scores even higher when you use a total wins version of these stats, rather than something which is minutes or possessions-adjusted.  He's top 5 in the three stats (Raptor, LEBRON, and EPM) that offer this calculation.

I suspect that the vast majority of front offices don't use any of those crap metrics.  :D

Quote
“I don’t really use any,” said one executive, who is the president of basketball operations for a team in the Eastern Conference. “They are all pretty bad.”

Quote
Among the 29 individuals who participated in our survey, six said that EPM was their preferred catch-all metric. That was the second-most among all metrics. Eleven others said that they trust EPM as an all-in-one metric while only one said that they did not.

Quote
Among the 29 individuals who participated in our survey, eight (8) said that DPM was their preferred catch-all metric. That was the most among all metrics. Ten (10) others said that they trust DPM as an all-in-one metric while only one (1) said that they did not.

Quote
Among the 29 individuals who participated in our survey, four said that LEBRON was their preferred catch-all metric. Fourteen others said that they trust LEBRON as an all-in-one metric while two said that they did not.

Quote
Among the 29 individuals who participated in our survey, six said that RAPTOR was their preferred catch-all metric, which made it the third-most-popular in that regard. Eight others said that they trust RAPTOR as an all-in-one metric but an additional seven said that they did not.

That’s 18 of 29 respondents who either prefer or trust DPM, EPM, and LEBRON, and 14 of 29 for RAPTOR.  Only 1-2 respondents didn’t trust the first three.  RAPTOR did less well in that regard, but still far from a “vast majority” (studies have shown it performs less well when sample sizes is limited by minutes).

Many of those respondents were media members, etc., without access to actually reliable metrics.  And, if a member of a front office said that one of the listed metrics is their preferred publicly available, catch-all metric doesn't mean they actually use it substantially.  If they do, they should be fired, because teams have access to all kinds of proprietary tracking data that is much, much more useful than a catch-all metric.

As noted:

Quote
If I could add a wrinkle to your story, it would be that all-in-one stats are overused – that the next phase of basketball analytics is all about context-dependent numbers,” said another front office member from the Western Conference. “That would be the most honest quote I could give.”

Quote
However, the most common feedback to the survey we received was that most teams focus on their own custom-developed systems when evaluating players.



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Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2022, 10:43:49 AM »

Offline tonydelk

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It's a good question. I'll reply with another question; are there nine other players you'd rather have on your team in a seven game series?

I can't think of many and it's because Tatum does everything (score, pass, rebound, defend), he's very young and he has the clutch gene.

He might be top 5.   

LeBron, Giannis, Kawhi, Doncic, Jokic, Trae Young, Embiid, Durant, Harden, Curry, Ja Morant in no particular order...Tatum's in tough competition right now.

Giannis, Embiid are about the only two I'd build a team around over Tatum.  All of the above are superstars don't get me wrong but If I'm building a team I'll take our newly 24yr old superstar over any of the aging ones that are almost in their mid 30s (Kawhi, LBJ, Harden, Curry and Durant).  I love Ja and he's special but the way he plays he will be hurt a lot.  I still like Tatum over Ja.  I also like Trae but he's absolutely not better then Tatum.  Especially how poor he is on D.  Same with Luka.  Luka is special but you can see his conditioning isn't the best and he will never be a plus defender like Tatum.  The Joker is close. He's 27 and is a stud but I lean towards tatum.  He's the better scorer and defender and with his improved playmaking he will surpass the Joker. 

While I'm always going to be partial to the C's you can't deny Tatum is making major improvements every year getting close to a top 5 NBA player.  He works on his physicality and that has improved his athleticism.  He's getting closer and closer to Durant level skill.  I think Tatum is the better defender right now.  They are equal rebounders.  Durant is the better shooter.  He's just so smooth.  I think Tatum is becoming better at attacking the basket the Durant.  He's getting hard to stop.  Not as hard as Giannis.  No one is better at attacking the basket then The Greek Freak.  Durant is a good facilitator but a lot of his play making are from being so good at finding the right pass out of a double.  This is where Tatum needs to keep improving.  He's so much better this year but he has another level he can get to.  If Tatum can take one more leap on playmaking and become more aware about driving versus settling for 3s when his shot isn't falling next year then there will be no denying he's top 3-5. 

Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2022, 10:51:18 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Last 30 games he is top 5 for me. Averaging 27.4 pts, 7.9 rebs, 6.9 ast on 46.7 fg% with elite defense.

Where are you getting those numbers?  I don't think Tatum has averaged more than 5.0 assists in any month so far.  Typo?

He must have read it wrong.  Per NBA.com, in his last 30 JT has averaged 27.4/7.8/4.7

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=12%2F23%2F2021&DateTo=03%2F07%2F2022&TeamID=1610612738
I added everything up and divided by 30. Maybe I messed up somewhere but ESPN also had a graphic up today saying avg 8 rebs 7 ast which is more than What I got.

Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2022, 10:53:24 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Quote
8. Boston Celtics
2021-22 record: 39-27
Previous ranking: 10

The one thing that could be held against Boston as it turned its season around over the past few weeks was the lack of elite competition. By beating the Grizzlies and Nets (finally with Durant and Irving on the court together) this week, that critique no longer applies. The Celtics have to be seen as a legitimate East contender at this point, behind the combination of Tatum's continued ascension and the league's best defense. -- Bontemps

This is from the weekly ESPN Power Rankings. Boston was down in the 20's at one point when Jayson was struggling with his shot and playmaking growth.

But as the article said, which echoed my statement, the team's defense and Tatum's ascension is the reason for the C's climb up the rankings. Key word.... "ascension". He has risen....to a top 10 player.

At 24 to have as many 50 point games and as many 60 point games as Larry Bird is astounding.

Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2022, 11:05:18 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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For what it's worth, Hoopshype did a survey of NBA front offices in the offseason and had them rate publicly-available advanced stat metrics.  There were four metrics that were used by one or more front offices as their primary go-to metric: RAPTOR, LEBRON, EPM, and, DPM.  Tatum ranked 6th, 8th, 10th, and 11th in those four, respectively.  However, DPM uses a lot of past performance in its ranking (which is probably why it's the most trusted in the NBA because it is less subject to the effects of small sample-size), but that means that it has Kawhi, who hasn't played this season and is likely out all year, ranks ahead of Tatum based on past performance.  So of players who've seen at least one minute of action this year, Tatum was top-10 in all 4.  There were 19 players in the top ten of at least one of these metrics (excluding the injured Kawhi), but Tatum was one of only 5 to make the top-10 in all four.

In other words, analytics would give a pretty resounding yes that Tatum is top-10, but probably not top 5.

Note: I used the per-minute values for all of these rankings at whatever default minutes a particular stat used.  But Tatum has also played a ton of minutes, and scores even higher when you use a total wins version of these stats, rather than something which is minutes or possessions-adjusted.  He's top 5 in the three stats (Raptor, LEBRON, and EPM) that offer this calculation.

I suspect that the vast majority of front offices don't use any of those crap metrics.  :D

Quote
“I don’t really use any,” said one executive, who is the president of basketball operations for a team in the Eastern Conference. “They are all pretty bad.”

Quote
Among the 29 individuals who participated in our survey, six said that EPM was their preferred catch-all metric. That was the second-most among all metrics. Eleven others said that they trust EPM as an all-in-one metric while only one said that they did not.

Quote
Among the 29 individuals who participated in our survey, eight (8) said that DPM was their preferred catch-all metric. That was the most among all metrics. Ten (10) others said that they trust DPM as an all-in-one metric while only one (1) said that they did not.

Quote
Among the 29 individuals who participated in our survey, four said that LEBRON was their preferred catch-all metric. Fourteen others said that they trust LEBRON as an all-in-one metric while two said that they did not.

Quote
Among the 29 individuals who participated in our survey, six said that RAPTOR was their preferred catch-all metric, which made it the third-most-popular in that regard. Eight others said that they trust RAPTOR as an all-in-one metric but an additional seven said that they did not.

That’s 18 of 29 respondents who either prefer or trust DPM, EPM, and LEBRON, and 14 of 29 for RAPTOR.  Only 1-2 respondents didn’t trust the first three.  RAPTOR did less well in that regard, but still far from a “vast majority” (studies have shown it performs less well when sample sizes is limited by minutes).

Many of those respondents were media members, etc., without access to actually reliable metrics.  And, if a member of a front office said that one of the listed metrics is their preferred publicly available, catch-all metric doesn't mean they actually use it substantially.  If they do, they should be fired, because teams have access to all kinds of proprietary tracking data that is much, much more useful than a catch-all metric.

As noted:

Quote
If I could add a wrinkle to your story, it would be that all-in-one stats are overused – that the next phase of basketball analytics is all about context-dependent numbers,” said another front office member from the Western Conference. “That would be the most honest quote I could give.”

Quote
However, the most common feedback to the survey we received was that most teams focus on their own custom-developed systems when evaluating players.

Just so we're clear, the four stats I mentioned are to a degree "context-dependent".  They consider the other players on the floor for both teams, how the team performs when the player is out, and a couple consider a "player-type" (for example, we expect bigs to have good shooting percentages near the basket for obvious reasons, whereas less-so for guards, and stats take this into account).  And just because teams use and prefer their own metrics, it doesn't mean they're going to evaluate the best players in the game tremendously differently.  All four of these metrics had Jokic, Embiid, and Giannis as the top 3 in the game, in some order.  I'd be shocked if teams' proprietary metrics said anything markedly differently.  It's clear to everyone who's watched basketball who the best players this season have been, and these metrics don't disagree.  If you're trying to find a role player, sure, context matters, and I would say is critically important.  Is that defensive part-timer for one team tailor-made to the role you're trying to fit on your roster?  EPM isn't going to tell you that.  But when you're trying to compare the top 10-20 guys in the league, these context-dependent stats simply matter less.  In other words, all-in-one stats can be useful for players who do it all.

And to borrow another quote from the same executive you like:

Quote
The executive also added that “averaging across a few numbers you trust” ... is “probably the way to go” to get the best evaluation.

Again, Tatum is one of five players in the top 10 of all four of these stats.  When several different sources are saying the same thing, you can probably believe that thing.  And in this case, that thing is Tatum has elevated himself into the Top 10.

Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2022, 11:09:34 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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When several different sources are saying the same thing, you can probably believe that thing.

I'm not sure that I agree here.  Or at least, the probability isn't that high.  There's such a thing as group think, particularly when these metrics are using the same basic numbers and give weight to the same types of things.


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Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2022, 11:09:52 AM »

Online Goldstar88

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Quote
8. Boston Celtics
2021-22 record: 39-27
Previous ranking: 10

The one thing that could be held against Boston as it turned its season around over the past few weeks was the lack of elite competition. By beating the Grizzlies and Nets (finally with Durant and Irving on the court together) this week, that critique no longer applies. The Celtics have to be seen as a legitimate East contender at this point, behind the combination of Tatum's continued ascension and the league's best defense. -- Bontemps

This is from the weekly ESPN Power Rankings. Boston was down in the 20's at one point when Jayson was struggling with his shot and playmaking growth.

But as the article said, which echoed my statement, the team's defense and Tatum's ascension is the reason for the C's climb up the rankings. Key word.... "ascension". He has risen....to a top 10 player.

At 24 to have as many 50 point games and as many 60 point games as Larry Bird is astounding.

It really is. I think Pierce hit 50 only one time in 19 seasons. I also feel like Tatum gets little to no credit for his defensive ability. He’s the 3rd best defensive player on the team and can guard the 1-4. At times, I think he’s more effective than Smart due to his height, length and athleticism.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2022, 11:14:13 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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When several different sources are saying the same thing, you can probably believe that thing.

I'm not sure that I agree here.  Or at least, the probability isn't that high.  There's such a thing as group think, particularly when these metrics are using the same basic numbers and give weight to the same types of things.

How do you evaluate if a metric is correct if not to compare it to other things?  Do you think that a bunch of other players have a case for top 3?  Would you put one of Giannis, Jokic, or Embiid outside the top 5 this year?

Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2022, 11:14:54 AM »

Online slamtheking

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Quote
8. Boston Celtics
2021-22 record: 39-27
Previous ranking: 10

The one thing that could be held against Boston as it turned its season around over the past few weeks was the lack of elite competition. By beating the Grizzlies and Nets (finally with Durant and Irving on the court together) this week, that critique no longer applies. The Celtics have to be seen as a legitimate East contender at this point, behind the combination of Tatum's continued ascension and the league's best defense. -- Bontemps

This is from the weekly ESPN Power Rankings. Boston was down in the 20's at one point when Jayson was struggling with his shot and playmaking growth.

But as the article said, which echoed my statement, the team's defense and Tatum's ascension is the reason for the C's climb up the rankings. Key word.... "ascension". He has risen....to a top 10 player.

At 24 to have as many 50 point games and as many 60 point games as Larry Bird is astounding.
while that's certainly a significant accomplishment to have that many high scoring games, I discount the comparison to Bird because Larry didn't need to go off for 50+ points a game with the teammates he had.  Anyone who saw Bird in his prime knows he sacrificed some of his scoring to get his teammates involved and with Mchale, Parish, Max, Tiny, Ainge, etc... he didn't have to put up a lot of those high-score games but he was more than capable of doing so.

Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2022, 11:15:32 AM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

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Last 30 games he is top 5 for me. Averaging 27.4 pts, 7.9 rebs, 6.9 ast on 46.7 fg% with elite defense.

Where are you getting those numbers?  I don't think Tatum has averaged more than 5.0 assists in any month so far.  Typo?

He must have read it wrong.  Per NBA.com, in his last 30 JT has averaged 27.4/7.8/4.7

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=12%2F23%2F2021&DateTo=03%2F07%2F2022&TeamID=1610612738
I added everything up and divided by 30. Maybe I messed up somewhere but ESPN also had a graphic up today saying avg 8 rebs 7 ast which is more than What I got.

Just averaging the last 19 games, which is the last time he scored 50+, puts him at 29.4 ppg, 7.5 rpg, and 5.1 apg in only 35 mpg on 49/38/87 shooting splits. He's averaging 9.5 attempted threes a game and 6.3 attempted free throws a game in that stretch. Because of those numbers, he is averaging 1.41 points per shot. On top of that, his assist/turnover ratio is something like 2/1.

He's a truly great player.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 12:34:24 PM by DefenseWinsChamps »

Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2022, 11:27:03 AM »

Offline showtime

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 Top 5 and moving up!

Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2022, 11:28:38 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Tough to argue he isn't playing like one right now.


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Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2022, 11:46:01 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Last 30 games he is top 5 for me. Averaging 27.4 pts, 7.9 rebs, 6.9 ast on 46.7 fg% with elite defense.

Where are you getting those numbers?  I don't think Tatum has averaged more than 5.0 assists in any month so far.  Typo?

He must have read it wrong.  Per NBA.com, in his last 30 JT has averaged 27.4/7.8/4.7

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateFrom=12%2F23%2F2021&DateTo=03%2F07%2F2022&TeamID=1610612738
I added everything up and divided by 30. Maybe I messed up somewhere but ESPN also had a graphic up today saying avg 8 rebs 7 ast which is more than What I got.

Just averaging the last 19 games, which is the last time he scored 50+, puts him at 29.4 ppg, 7.5 rpg, and 5.1 apg in only 35 mpg on 49/38/87 shooting splits. He's averaging 9.5 threes a game and 6.3 free throws a game in that stretch. Because of those numbers, he is averaging 1.41 points per shot. On top of that, his assist/turnover ratio is something like 2/1.

He's a truly great player.

Attempts?


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Re: Has Tatum elevated into top 10 player in the NBA status?
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2022, 11:47:14 AM »

Offline bdm860

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At 24 to have as many 50 point games and as many 60 point games as Larry Bird is astounding.

It really is. I think Pierce hit 50 only one time in 19 seasons. I also feel like Tatum gets little to no credit for his defensive ability. He’s the 3rd best defensive player on the team and can guard the 1-4. At times, I think he’s more effective than Smart due to his height, length and athleticism.

To be fair to Pierce, during Pierce's solo prime, the whole league was putting up a lot fewer points, team's were averaging 95ppg.  In Bird's time, and right now with Tatum the league average is about 110ppg.

Pierce had a lot of 40+ point games that might have been 50+ in a different era.

Let's use this time to recognize Pierce scoring 45 in a game the Celtics won 77-58. 

After 18 months with their Bigs, the Littles were: 46% less likely to use illegal drugs, 27% less likely to use alcohol, 52% less likely to skip school, 37% less likely to skip a class