Celtics trade grades?

[mobilija]

Two guys on the team minus tonight despite this stellar performance in Denver: Theis and White.

But they make everyone else soooooo much better!!

Celtics are 10-3 since the deadline, just blew out another playoff team on the road, Theis and White had productive time in this game, and all you can do is come here and complain about their +/- tonight?

Okay, I give in to you. You changed my mind. The trades sucked. White and Theis are trash. Stevens is terrible. Udoka is awful. This team could have been playing so much better if only Richardson, Langford and Schröder were still here.

I'm outta this thread.

Man, do you need a box of tissues or what? Considering your deep acumen on the team, presumably you don’t actually believe the Cs late success is due to — instead of in spite of — Stevens weak trades.

In which case, if you just don’t like any negativity, why read it and / or comment at all?

I happen to have strong concern about the very obvious problem White has become, and how he may very well need to be removed from the playoffs rotation due to the liability he represents offensively. What coach is going to bother defending him? The Cs essentially play 4 on 5 when he’s on the floor.

Are we living in some alternate reality here? On what planet are they going to remove White from the playoff rotation?? What are we doing here people. Lol. White is been pretty good. Yes, his 3 pt shot isn’t falling. But it’s not like he can’t go to the hoop, defend, initiate offense. This is a truly ridiculous take.

Nothing new here (ridiculous takes).

People here see guys have a slump and go "ugh trade this fool".

Here we are, end of the season, closing in on third, heck, maybe even second seed.

People have no patience. No chill. Just knee-jerking negativity and never believe people can actually IMPROVE.

Seriously.

Everyone's been shooting under their career percentages. That's evening out now. Heck, there's memes about JT always having a crappy early season and then rounding into superstar form towards the end.

This isn't new.

Teams developing chemistry isn't new.

New players that struggle for a bit before contributing, isn't new.

Life gets a lot more fun when you practice a little bit of patience, and occasionally believe people can become better.

Or, y'know. Just keep the short-sighted (quite literally) approach and stay negative.

Should've seen this coming at the start of the season too, when Smart made 1 bad play that "cost us a game" and people wanted him outta town.

Over 1 mistake. Hah.

Short, sighted.

Pardon the dire post. Just been a shame losing this place cuz I love the Celtics, but really dislike the negativity here all the time.

It's far from ridiculous.

What PG or SG on another team will be a regular part of their team's playoff rotation while shooting ~20% from three? Or ~37% from the field? How many minutes is that player actually going to play? How many 4th quarter minutes? And does that team have any true aspirations of a championship?

White's shooting 10-12% worse from 3 than the closest like-examples... guys like Thybuille and Okoro. But Thybuille is a longer, better defender; a better shooter; and yet will also likely will see tighter minutes in lieu of Green, Korkmaz, and Milton when it counts due to his offensive liability.

Why would any opposing coach defend White in the playoffs? They won't -- his defender will sink off him to the paint and / or double Tatum or Brown until he proves he can make shots. So how many minutes will Udoka actually play White under the circumstances? If he can't improve his shot, he's a situational player only.

I get that folks don't like it. But the reality is ugly. He needs to turn a big corner in the last couple weeks of the season. Dismissing the problem would be ridiculous.

His shooting is a bit of a problem, but one that is easily solved. Through patience.
He needs time to adjust to his new team and his shooting percentages should head back towards his statistical average. It's ok to be concerned that maybe he's running out of time this season. But to pan the whole trade as a disaster is a "sky is falling" take. Gotta let it play out, might not be till next year that White's shooting comes back. But we also just might get pretty far regardless, he offers many other positives.

[Roy H.]

If you want to hate the trade, go ahead.  That's not an unfair take.

I mean, I can't argue with that perspective.  You choices are Derrick White vs. Josh Richardson, Romeo Langford, our #1 pick, and no swap rights to our pick in 2028.  I suspect, to date, most people would take the latter assests.

But, don't hate the player.  People are too hyper-focused on the outside shooting, which is admittedly truly terrible.  But, White plays great defense, gets to the hoop, draws fouls, and passes the ball.  Once he breaks out of his slump -- which may be tomorrow, in the playoffs, or next year -- he'll be a more well-rounded player than Richardson and will improve the team beyond what we're seeing now.

[Goldstar88]

If you want to hate the trade, go ahead.  That's not an unfair take.

I mean, I can't argue with that perspective.  You choices are Derrick White vs. Josh Richardson, Romeo Langford, our #1 pick, and no swap rights to our pick in 2028.  I suspect, to date, most people would take the latter assests.

But, don't hate the player.  People are too hyper-focused on the outside shooting, which is admittedly truly terrible.  But, White plays great defense, gets to the hoop, draws fouls, and passes the ball.  Once he breaks out of his slump -- which may be tomorrow, in the playoffs, or next year -- he'll be a more well-rounded player than Richardson and will improve the team beyond what we're seeing now.

Well said, Roy. I’m feeling better about the trade now that Pritchard is playing more and hitting shots off the bench consistently. Now the C’s have Payton and Grant as off the bench snipers, which takes the sting out of White struggling mightily on the offensive end. Derrick did make a Midrange jump shot yesterday from around the FT line which was good to see. If he can take say 2 shots from deep per game vs his current 5 attempts and just look to score inside of the Arc, that would be terrific. The rest of his game is really solid.

[todd_days_41]

If you want to hate the trade, go ahead.  That's not an unfair take.

I mean, I can't argue with that perspective.  You choices are Derrick White vs. Josh Richardson, Romeo Langford, our #1 pick, and no swap rights to our pick in 2028.  I suspect, to date, most people would take the latter assests.

But, don't hate the player.  People are too hyper-focused on the outside shooting, which is admittedly truly terrible.  But, White plays great defense, gets to the hoop, draws fouls, and passes the ball.  Once he breaks out of his slump -- which may be tomorrow, in the playoffs, or next year -- he'll be a more well-rounded player than Richardson and will improve the team beyond what we're seeing now.

No one will be happier than me to eat crow if / when White turns it around offensively -- I'd be thrilled if he could just go back to being the player he was in SAS this year, much less the one he was last year. Sufficient back-up guard play, basically. Then it would just be a major overpay, not an absurdity. What it he doesn't? Are we going to have him "play through it" at the risk of playoff wins?

I don't like the player much, so I don't like the trade. That's what I'm hatin' on -- the trade, in the trade thread. I didn't like it when it was SAS White. I certainly don't like it now that he's BOS White. He's overrated because he played for Pop -- period.

White plays great defense, gets to the hoop, draws fouls, and passes the ball.

And I think these are more projections than realities. White is a good team defender, he's a positive piece of the puzzle for sure (... he'd better be). Individual defender? Gets beat off the dribble plenty, as I see it. He's not great.

He's making two 2s a game, and making 2 FTs a game. His assists are down as a Celtic. Not sure these purported skills really add up to much value.

[slamtheking]

If you want to hate the trade, go ahead.  That's not an unfair take.

I mean, I can't argue with that perspective.  You choices are Derrick White vs. Josh Richardson, Romeo Langford, our #1 pick, and no swap rights to our pick in 2028.  I suspect, to date, most people would take the latter assests.

But, don't hate the player.  People are too hyper-focused on the outside shooting, which is admittedly truly terrible.  But, White plays great defense, gets to the hoop, draws fouls, and passes the ball.  Once he breaks out of his slump -- which may be tomorrow, in the playoffs, or next year -- he'll be a more well-rounded player than Richardson and will improve the team beyond what we're seeing now.

I think "hate" is the wrong term.

People who don't like the trade and the subsequent trade involving Schroder (myself included) aren't saying White is a stiff or scrub.  The guy does have talent.  Problem is, shooting isn't one of those talents -- certainly not this year for Spurs and even less so for the Celtics.  The big issue is the overpayment to get him.  As in severe overpayment.  White is a better ball handler and passer than the 3 rotation guys we gave up (Richardson, Schroder in that other deal because we now had White, and Romeo).  He's a solid defender but so was Richardson and Romeo.  I would offer that Richardson and Romeo were better at guarding bigger guys than White but that may be in the eye of the individual.  What White isn't better at is a shooter/scorer than Richardson or Schroder.  I'd put him behind Romeo as well right now because Romeo could at least make corner 3's and drive to the hoop from the corner. 

White's about at the point where Marcus was a couple of years ago when opposing defenses would sag off him daring (hoping) him to shoot.  if his shooting continues to be this bad going into the playoffs, no doubt about it but opposing teams will sag off him into the paint to clog up his drives and provide help defense on cutters through the lane/lobs to Timelord at the rim and cheat towards providing an extra defender on Tatum and/or Brown. 

IMHO, the difference between the C's having a long shot at the title this year and being a serious contender is the J's getting well-rounded scoring help from the rest of the team.  That has to include White.  If he's hitting at least a respectable percentage, we could be hanging banner 18 this year.  if he continues to brick away, that's going to make it a mighty tough slog through the playoffs

[Hoopvortex]

Two guys on the team minus tonight despite this stellar performance in Denver: Theis and White.

But they make everyone else soooooo much better!!

Celtics are 10-3 since the deadline, just blew out another playoff team on the road, Theis and White had productive time in this game, and all you can do is come here and complain about their +/- tonight?

Okay, I give in to you. You changed my mind. The trades sucked. White and Theis are trash. Stevens is terrible. Udoka is awful. This team could have been playing so much better if only Richardson, Langford and Schröder were still here.

I'm outta this thread.

Man, do you need a box of tissues or what? Considering your deep acumen on the team, presumably you don’t actually believe the Cs late success is due to — instead of in spite of — Stevens weak trades.

In which case, if you just don’t like any negativity, why read it and / or comment at all?

I happen to have strong concern about the very obvious problem White has become, and how he may very well need to be removed from the playoffs rotation due to the liability he represents offensively. What coach is going to bother defending him? The Cs essentially play 4 on 5 when he’s on the floor.

Idk Richardson and Schroeder were on the roster in the beginning of the season when the team was below .500. I’ll take the current version over the former.

So the Celtics were losing because of Richardson and Schroder, and they’re winning because of White and Theis? Pretty sure that’s not an accurate statement.

So White and Theis are…. good luck? Oh boy.

I said “idk” — beats me. I just know this team is better now than they were then. They win more and they play together. That is abundantly obvious. And no I don’t think Richardson or Schroeder would be a better fit right now…. There aren’t a lot of role players that would be obvious upgrades just because it’s hard to imagine this team playing much better than they are right now.

I’d point out the Cs we’re on a pretty good run before the trade deadline. Simply never understood the part where folks questioned Richardson’s fit.

I think he fit well. He certainly rehabilitated his career, a good sign that he was given a role he could be productive in.

[Hoopvortex]

If you want to hate the trade, go ahead.  That's not an unfair take.

I mean, I can't argue with that perspective.  You choices are Derrick White vs. Josh Richardson, Romeo Langford, our #1 pick, and no swap rights to our pick in 2028.  I suspect, to date, most people would take the latter assests.

But, don't hate the player.  People are too hyper-focused on the outside shooting, which is admittedly truly terrible.  But, White plays great defense, gets to the hoop, draws fouls, and passes the ball.  Once he breaks out of his slump -- which may be tomorrow, in the playoffs, or next year -- he'll be a more well-rounded player than Richardson and will improve the team beyond what we're seeing now.

... Derrick did make a Midrange jump shot yesterday from around the FT line which was good to see ...

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, that’s an area of the court that he’s shot well in this season.

[Vermont Green]

I dug up some interesting line up data (at least interesting to me) concerning White.  I wanted to see if he was better with Smart or better with Pritchard (this is for the last 15 games):

White + Pritch    +56 / 142 min
White + Smart   -21 / 175 min
Smart + Pritch   +11 / 34 min

White +Brown + Tatum  +36 / 58 min (no Smart or Pritchard)

What stands out with this is that White is fine except when playing with Smart.  +103 without Smart, -21 with Smart.  That is based on 15 games and over 400 minutes.  So what is the deal with Smart and White?

All of those stats are still very subject to sample size noise.  Having said that, I wonder (without evidence or film to back this up) if Smart and White might be somewhat redundant on offense.  In comparison, Pritchard has a very different skillset and synergizes with one of the two much better than they do with each other.

Just a guess.

What seems to be happening is that both White and Smart play better with Pritchard because Pritchard of late is hitting shots.  White and Smart both seem to need that shooter alongside them.  When it is White and Smart, you have two players trying to create for others, neither really looking for their own shot.

I agree about the sample size on these line up +/- data but we are talking 15 games and over 400 minutes.  It should level out, White and Smart will start to play better together, especially if White starts shooting more like his career norms.  But as it stands, it is quite a disparity.

[liam]

I dug up some interesting line up data (at least interesting to me) concerning White.  I wanted to see if he was better with Smart or better with Pritchard (this is for the last 15 games):

White + Pritch    +56 / 142 min
White + Smart   -21 / 175 min
Smart + Pritch   +11 / 34 min

White +Brown + Tatum  +36 / 58 min (no Smart or Pritchard)

What stands out with this is that White is fine except when playing with Smart.  +103 without Smart, -21 with Smart.  That is based on 15 games and over 400 minutes.  So what is the deal with Smart and White?

All of those stats are still very subject to sample size noise.  Having said that, I wonder (without evidence or film to back this up) if Smart and White might be somewhat redundant on offense.  In comparison, Pritchard has a very different skillset and synergizes with one of the two much better than they do with each other.

Just a guess.

What seems to be happening is that both White and Smart play better with Pritchard because Pritchard of late is hitting shots.  White and Smart both seem to need that shooter alongside them.  When it is White and Smart, you have two players trying to create for others, neither really looking for their own shot.

I agree about the sample size on these line up +/- data but we are talking 15 games and over 400 minutes.  It should level out, White and Smart will start to play better together, especially if White starts shooting more like his career norms.  But as it stands, it is quite a disparity.

I posted about how Pritchard could play with both Smart or with White when the trade went through and was lambasted on here. People telling me how Pritchard couldn't play in the NBA and that I was obsessed with a guy who shouldn't be in the NBA. Pritchard on the floor makes the team better just for the spacing he provides and when he's hitting at such a high volume he pulls guys out of the paint or scores. Pritchard is a useful member of this team.

[Hoopvortex]

No one will be happier than me to eat crow if / when White turns it around offensively --

He’s an asset on offense now. Offense is more than individual scoring.

White plays great defense, gets to the hoop, draws fouls, and passes the ball.

And I think these are more projections than realities. White is a good team defender, he's a positive piece of the puzzle for sure (... he'd better be). Individual defender? Gets beat off the dribble plenty, as I see it. He's not great.

It’s fair to say I have a higher opinion of his defense than you do.

He’s been an outstanding finisher this season, btw, .667 on 120 shots in the restricted area. Not a projection.

As for drawing fouls, his Free Throw Rate is a healthy .277, ntm he’s shooting .863 from there, which is like grade-AA+. Again, not a projection.

He's making two 2s a game, and making 2 FTs a game. His assists are down as a Celtic. Not sure these purported skills really add up to much value.

Probably per-game stats are even less useful for low-usage players like Derrick and Marcus Smart; but you’re better off controlling for minutes and possessions - then at least the comparisons are fruit-to-fruit (so to speak), if not actually apples-to-apples.

[todd_days_41]

Two guys on the team minus tonight despite this stellar performance in Denver: Theis and White.

But they make everyone else soooooo much better!!

Celtics are 10-3 since the deadline, just blew out another playoff team on the road, Theis and White had productive time in this game, and all you can do is come here and complain about their +/- tonight?

Okay, I give in to you. You changed my mind. The trades sucked. White and Theis are trash. Stevens is terrible. Udoka is awful. This team could have been playing so much better if only Richardson, Langford and Schröder were still here.

I'm outta this thread.

Man, do you need a box of tissues or what? Considering your deep acumen on the team, presumably you don’t actually believe the Cs late success is due to — instead of in spite of — Stevens weak trades.

In which case, if you just don’t like any negativity, why read it and / or comment at all?

I happen to have strong concern about the very obvious problem White has become, and how he may very well need to be removed from the playoffs rotation due to the liability he represents offensively. What coach is going to bother defending him? The Cs essentially play 4 on 5 when he’s on the floor.

Idk Richardson and Schroeder were on the roster in the beginning of the season when the team was below .500. I’ll take the current version over the former.

So the Celtics were losing because of Richardson and Schroder, and they’re winning because of White and Theis? Pretty sure that’s not an accurate statement.

So White and Theis are…. good luck? Oh boy.

I said “idk” — beats me. I just know this team is better now than they were then. They win more and they play together. That is abundantly obvious. And no I don’t think Richardson or Schroeder would be a better fit right now…. There aren’t a lot of role players that would be obvious upgrades just because it’s hard to imagine this team playing much better than they are right now.

I’d point out the Cs we’re on a pretty good run before the trade deadline. Simply never understood the part where folks questioned Richardson’s fit.

White is a much better fit. Pritchard provides better shooting than Richardson, White provides better everything else, and they can play together, unlike Richardson and PP.

Pritchard and Richardson couldn't play together? Why?

Pritchard's minutes are a function of Schroeder's departure -- as this board clamored for endlessly to such an end -- not Richardson's. The idea that White somehow makes it possible for Pritchard to be productive (while Richardson restricted it) is poppycock, IMO. Pritchard's getting his opportunity now that DS (another shoot first / only guard) is gone, and using it well.

[mobilija]

If both Richardson and White were free agents, so no trade assets involved, and you only have room for one of them on the team, which would you pick?

[feckless]

I think White is the better fit.  Richardson is the better scorer and shooter.  White is a much better passer and defender.  We probably overpaid for White but the ball moves better, he defends better and he blends better than Richardson.

[todd_days_41]

I think White is the better fit.  Richardson is the better scorer and shooter.  White is a much better passer and defender.  We probably overpaid for White but the ball moves better, he defends better and he blends better than Richardson.

I object to the notion that White is a much better defender than JR. Richardson's defensive versatility is an underrated part of his game, and I think White gets by more on smarts than skill on the defensive end.

Folks are making too much of White's defense on a team that was already defensively elite with Richardson.

[Celtics2021]

I think White is the better fit.  Richardson is the better scorer and shooter.  White is a much better passer and defender.  We probably overpaid for White but the ball moves better, he defends better and he blends better than Richardson.

I object to the notion that White is a much better defender than JR. Richardson's defensive versatility is an underrated part of his game, and I think White gets by more on smarts than skill on the defensive end.

Folks are making too much of White's defense on a team that was already defensively elite with Richardson.

We could win the title the next four seasons and I don't think you'd admit you're wrong, but man, you're just wrong.

If we look at just Richardson's last 16 games, so it mostly includes the good run for the team and ignores the three months of mediocrity before that (which Richardson was absolutely a part of), and compare them to White's first 16 games, we see that the Celtics score 5.3 more points per 100 possessions with White on the court than Richardson on the court (114.0 to 108.7), and give up 2.5 points (102.1 to 104.6) per possession fewer with White compared Richardson. 

The team overall was playing well for both of these samples (12-4 with Richardson and 13.3 with White).  But the team had an overall Net rating of 13.2 while Richardson was on it during that stretch, but only a 4.1 net rating with Richardson on the court, so 9.1 points worse.  With White on the team, the overall net rating has been a similar 13.0, but that rating barely changes with White on the court compared to off (11.9 with him on).

Both players were on the court a similar amount (25.6 for White and 23.0 for Richardson).  The Celtics are simply a much better team with White than Richardson, for all the reasons everyone has been telling you over the last 10 pages of this thread.  I really hope you can get over these blinders you've put on, because you're missing something special, and Derrick White is an important part of that.