Celtics trade grades?

[todd_days_41]

Two guys on the team minus tonight despite this stellar performance in Denver: Theis and White.

But they make everyone else soooooo much better!!

Celtics are 10-3 since the deadline, just blew out another playoff team on the road, Theis and White had productive time in this game, and all you can do is come here and complain about their +/- tonight?

Okay, I give in to you. You changed my mind. The trades sucked. White and Theis are trash. Stevens is terrible. Udoka is awful. This team could have been playing so much better if only Richardson, Langford and Schröder were still here.

I'm outta this thread.

Man, do you need a box of tissues or what? Considering your deep acumen on the team, presumably you don’t actually believe the Cs late success is due to — instead of in spite of — Stevens weak trades.

In which case, if you just don’t like any negativity, why read it and / or comment at all?

I happen to have strong concern about the very obvious problem White has become, and how he may very well need to be removed from the playoffs rotation due to the liability he represents offensively. What coach is going to bother defending him? The Cs essentially play 4 on 5 when he’s on the floor.

Idk Richardson and Schroeder were on the roster in the beginning of the season when the team was below .500. I’ll take the current version over the former.

So the Celtics were losing because of Richardson and Schroder, and they’re winning because of White and Theis? Pretty sure that’s not an accurate statement.

So White and Theis are…. good luck? Oh boy.

[slamtheking]

Two guys on the team minus tonight despite this stellar performance in Denver: Theis and White.

But they make everyone else soooooo much better!!

Celtics are 10-3 since the deadline, just blew out another playoff team on the road, Theis and White had productive time in this game, and all you can do is come here and complain about their +/- tonight?

Okay, I give in to you. You changed my mind. The trades sucked. White and Theis are trash. Stevens is terrible. Udoka is awful. This team could have been playing so much better if only Richardson, Langford and Schröder were still here.

I'm outta this thread.

Man, do you need a box of tissues or what? Considering your deep acumen on the team, presumably you don’t actually believe the Cs late success is due to — instead of in spite of — Stevens weak trades.

In which case, if you just don’t like any negativity, why read it and / or comment at all?

I happen to have strong concern about the very obvious problem White has become, and how he may very well need to be removed from the playoffs rotation due to the liability he represents offensively. What coach is going to bother defending him? The Cs essentially play 4 on 5 when he’s on the floor.

Idk Richardson and Schroeder were on the roster in the beginning of the season when the team was below .500. I’ll take the current version over the former.

So the Celtics were losing because of Richardson and Schroder, and they’re winning because of White and Theis? Pretty sure that’s not an accurate statement.

So White and Theis are…. good luck? Oh boy.

what seems to get glazed over by those supporting the trades is that the team had turned it around before the trades, not because of the trades.  also being glazed over is the ascension of Tatum's game at the same time as the improved play -- also not due to the acquisition of White because it began before the deals.  I can understand the removal of Schroder as having a positive impact but he wasn't moved as part of the White deal but as a result of it.  White, while a better ballhandler and passer, isn't nearly as capable of taking over the offense when needed like Schroder could do.   

if the deal was just Richardson for White, I'd be less disgruntled or if the deal only included Romeo or this year's pick, I'd still think we overpaid but not as egregiously as we have with at least 3 assets moved and possibly 4 depending on that swap

[seancally]

Two guys on the team minus tonight despite this stellar performance in Denver: Theis and White.

But they make everyone else soooooo much better!!

Celtics are 10-3 since the deadline, just blew out another playoff team on the road, Theis and White had productive time in this game, and all you can do is come here and complain about their +/- tonight?

Okay, I give in to you. You changed my mind. The trades sucked. White and Theis are trash. Stevens is terrible. Udoka is awful. This team could have been playing so much better if only Richardson, Langford and Schröder were still here.

I'm outta this thread.

Man, do you need a box of tissues or what? Considering your deep acumen on the team, presumably you don’t actually believe the Cs late success is due to — instead of in spite of — Stevens weak trades.

In which case, if you just don’t like any negativity, why read it and / or comment at all?

I happen to have strong concern about the very obvious problem White has become, and how he may very well need to be removed from the playoffs rotation due to the liability he represents offensively. What coach is going to bother defending him? The Cs essentially play 4 on 5 when he’s on the floor.

Idk Richardson and Schroeder were on the roster in the beginning of the season when the team was below .500. I’ll take the current version over the former.

So the Celtics were losing because of Richardson and Schroder, and they’re winning because of White and Theis? Pretty sure that’s not an accurate statement.

So White and Theis are…. good luck? Oh boy.

I said “idk” — beats me. I just know this team is better now than they were then. They win more and they play together. That is abundantly obvious. And no I don’t think Richardson or Schroeder would be a better fit right now…. There aren’t a lot of role players that would be obvious upgrades just because it’s hard to imagine this team playing much better than they are right now.

[Goldstar88]

Two guys on the team minus tonight despite this stellar performance in Denver: Theis and White.

But they make everyone else soooooo much better!!

Celtics are 10-3 since the deadline, just blew out another playoff team on the road, Theis and White had productive time in this game, and all you can do is come here and complain about their +/- tonight?

Okay, I give in to you. You changed my mind. The trades sucked. White and Theis are trash. Stevens is terrible. Udoka is awful. This team could have been playing so much better if only Richardson, Langford and Schröder were still here.

I'm outta this thread.

Man, do you need a box of tissues or what? Considering your deep acumen on the team, presumably you don’t actually believe the Cs late success is due to — instead of in spite of — Stevens weak trades.

In which case, if you just don’t like any negativity, why read it and / or comment at all?

I happen to have strong concern about the very obvious problem White has become, and how he may very well need to be removed from the playoffs rotation due to the liability he represents offensively. What coach is going to bother defending him? The Cs essentially play 4 on 5 when he’s on the floor.

I’m still not sold on the trade, but I will say that White being able to run the point and let Pritchard fire away like a SG is a plus. Derrick needs to stop jacking 3’s until he works with a shooting coach in the off-season.

[JBcat]

White last night 0-8 overall, 0-5 from 3.  Down to 22.6% from 3 while with the Celtics.  He was having trouble hitting the rim.

Time to break out the sports phycologist or maybe a hypnotist.  Some form of intervention is needed.

He did everything else well.  Shooting is way off right now, but he’s still a better fit as a PG than Schröder.  I will agree he’s not playing like a guy worth a 1st and a swap, but I’d still rather have our post-deadline roster than our pre-deadline roster.  The ball moves with White, even if sometimes that movement results with him bricking a wide-open shot.

Yeah, he defends, passes, penetrates, gets to the line, and generally hits his shots from inside the arc.  My guess is that if you tracked his movement, he'd be near the top on the team.  He's reportedly good in the locker room.

It's just his three point shot that is broken.  I suspect he's inside his own head a bit.

I think Zach Lowe's comments in this article basically sum up my feelings on White and the trade, and speak to what you're getting at....

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2022/02/13/celtics-trade-deadline-reaction-derrick-white-daniel-theis-josh-richardson-dennis-schroder/

“Derrick White is a good player,” Lowe said. “He’s 27 years old. His Spurs-iness – he moves around a lot, he’s a quick decision-maker, he’s unselfish – is exactly what the Celtics need between (Jayson) Tatum and (Jaylen) Brown. That’s exactly the player they need. Just keep it moving.

“I just wish he shot it better. I think he’s 31 percent from deep this year and he’s average/below-average for his career. The Celtics are dying, dying for one killer shooter around those guys. And I think he’s got three more years left on his contract that’s got $16, $17 million a pop. As evidenced by the fact that the Celtics traded two draft assets for him, it does have market value. I just don’t think it’s a great contract.

“I think he’s a good player. I think he’ll help the Celtics. Defensively, he’ll make them even better but they’re already elite defensively – I think they’re third or fourth in the league in points allowed per possession. Offensively, maybe his passing, juice, and ball movement will help them out. I just wish he shot it better.

“I’m not sure I would’ve done this trade. Josh Richardson’s been playing well too. … You get some long-term certainty with Derrick White. You get him through his prime, he’s 27 years old. I just wish he could shoot it better. I’m not sure if I would’ve done this trade if I was Boston. Maybe I would have and just said ‘It’s just the 16th pick in the draft and swapped rights, it’s not that big of a deal.’ I’m not overjoyed about it.”

Actually Boston is now 1st in defensive points per possession, so more elite than brother Zach was thinking - and that's in no small part due to the contributions of DWhite. But have we not noticed how much better the offense is running? He's less ball-dominant than Schroeder, and turns it over (unlike Dennis) at an outstandingly low rate. More man movement and more ball movement. Josh Richardson shot better from 3 but Derrick makes the whole team offense better.

I suppose Zach wrote this before we got to see how well this is working out. Just a really savvy set of moves by the Boston braintrust.

Also that first round pick we are giving up sits at 23 now, and could possibly fall back more in a weak draft. I’m not worried about losing that pick at all. White fits the team better than Richardson, and you get the extra 2 years of security of contract length. Yeah that pick swap isn’t great in 2028, but if our core the Jays, R Williams, and Smart are still around it will hopefully be a non lottery pick with a better chance of not having to swap. I was slightly bummed we also traded the 22 year old Langford, but honestly even liking his potential a little he just seemed too passive to stick in the league. Wish him well, and hope he proves me wrong.

Regarding his shooting plenty of players start becoming better 3 point shooters later on in their careers. Look at Al Horford, he didn’t become a respectable 3pt shooter until age 29, or dare I say Smart’s 3 point shooting since January 1st (hopefully turning the corner for good). Even if White’s shooting doesn’t really improve, he’s still a really solid fit for this team that we’ll have locked for a while.

[todd_days_41]

Two guys on the team minus tonight despite this stellar performance in Denver: Theis and White.

But they make everyone else soooooo much better!!

Celtics are 10-3 since the deadline, just blew out another playoff team on the road, Theis and White had productive time in this game, and all you can do is come here and complain about their +/- tonight?

Okay, I give in to you. You changed my mind. The trades sucked. White and Theis are trash. Stevens is terrible. Udoka is awful. This team could have been playing so much better if only Richardson, Langford and Schröder were still here.

I'm outta this thread.

Man, do you need a box of tissues or what? Considering your deep acumen on the team, presumably you don’t actually believe the Cs late success is due to — instead of in spite of — Stevens weak trades.

In which case, if you just don’t like any negativity, why read it and / or comment at all?

I happen to have strong concern about the very obvious problem White has become, and how he may very well need to be removed from the playoffs rotation due to the liability he represents offensively. What coach is going to bother defending him? The Cs essentially play 4 on 5 when he’s on the floor.

Idk Richardson and Schroeder were on the roster in the beginning of the season when the team was below .500. I’ll take the current version over the former.

So the Celtics were losing because of Richardson and Schroder, and they’re winning because of White and Theis? Pretty sure that’s not an accurate statement.

So White and Theis are…. good luck? Oh boy.

I said “idk” — beats me. I just know this team is better now than they were then. They win more and they play together. That is abundantly obvious. And no I don’t think Richardson or Schroeder would be a better fit right now…. There aren’t a lot of role players that would be obvious upgrades just because it’s hard to imagine this team playing much better than they are right now.

I’d point out the Cs we’re on a pretty good run before the trade deadline. Simply never understood the part where folks questioned Richardson’s fit.

[gouki88]

Two guys on the team minus tonight despite this stellar performance in Denver: Theis and White.

But they make everyone else soooooo much better!!

Celtics are 10-3 since the deadline, just blew out another playoff team on the road, Theis and White had productive time in this game, and all you can do is come here and complain about their +/- tonight?

Okay, I give in to you. You changed my mind. The trades sucked. White and Theis are trash. Stevens is terrible. Udoka is awful. This team could have been playing so much better if only Richardson, Langford and Schröder were still here.

I'm outta this thread.

Man, do you need a box of tissues or what? Considering your deep acumen on the team, presumably you don’t actually believe the Cs late success is due to — instead of in spite of — Stevens weak trades.

In which case, if you just don’t like any negativity, why read it and / or comment at all?

I happen to have strong concern about the very obvious problem White has become, and how he may very well need to be removed from the playoffs rotation due to the liability he represents offensively. What coach is going to bother defending him? The Cs essentially play 4 on 5 when he’s on the floor.

Idk Richardson and Schroeder were on the roster in the beginning of the season when the team was below .500. I’ll take the current version over the former.

So the Celtics were losing because of Richardson and Schroder, and they’re winning because of White and Theis? Pretty sure that’s not an accurate statement.

So White and Theis are…. good luck? Oh boy.

I said “idk” — beats me. I just know this team is better now than they were then. They win more and they play together. That is abundantly obvious. And no I don’t think Richardson or Schroeder would be a better fit right now…. There aren’t a lot of role players that would be obvious upgrades just because it’s hard to imagine this team playing much better than they are right now.

I’d point out the Cs we’re on a pretty good run before the trade deadline. Simply never understood the part where folks questioned Richardson’s fit.

White is a much better fit. Pritchard provides better shooting than Richardson, White provides better everything else, and they can play together, unlike Richardson and PP.

[PAOBoston]

Two guys on the team minus tonight despite this stellar performance in Denver: Theis and White.

But they make everyone else soooooo much better!!

Celtics are 10-3 since the deadline, just blew out another playoff team on the road, Theis and White had productive time in this game, and all you can do is come here and complain about their +/- tonight?

Okay, I give in to you. You changed my mind. The trades sucked. White and Theis are trash. Stevens is terrible. Udoka is awful. This team could have been playing so much better if only Richardson, Langford and Schröder were still here.

I'm outta this thread.

Man, do you need a box of tissues or what? Considering your deep acumen on the team, presumably you don’t actually believe the Cs late success is due to — instead of in spite of — Stevens weak trades.

In which case, if you just don’t like any negativity, why read it and / or comment at all?

I happen to have strong concern about the very obvious problem White has become, and how he may very well need to be removed from the playoffs rotation due to the liability he represents offensively. What coach is going to bother defending him? The Cs essentially play 4 on 5 when he’s on the floor.

Are we living in some alternate reality here? On what planet are they going to remove White from the playoff rotation?? What are we doing here people. Lol. White is been pretty good. Yes, his 3 pt shot isn’t falling. But it’s not like he can’t go to the hoop, defend, initiate offense. This is a truly ridiculous take.

[trickybilly]

It will NEVER cease to amaze me, how much people worry over the 2028 pick SWAP.

It's a swap: without going deep on the maths, the likelihood that it is at worst a 20th pick for a 10th pick (which assumes that there will be some truly unfortunate events taking place between then and now) is MUCH higher than a complete rebuild leading to a 25th for 5th pick swap.

Further to all this - if there is some disaster, then we literally just run a G-league team out there for 2027, get that #1 pick and keep it with its protection, probably all while finding a diamond in the rough. Case closed.

[Kiorrik]

Two guys on the team minus tonight despite this stellar performance in Denver: Theis and White.

But they make everyone else soooooo much better!!

Celtics are 10-3 since the deadline, just blew out another playoff team on the road, Theis and White had productive time in this game, and all you can do is come here and complain about their +/- tonight?

Okay, I give in to you. You changed my mind. The trades sucked. White and Theis are trash. Stevens is terrible. Udoka is awful. This team could have been playing so much better if only Richardson, Langford and Schröder were still here.

I'm outta this thread.

Man, do you need a box of tissues or what? Considering your deep acumen on the team, presumably you don’t actually believe the Cs late success is due to — instead of in spite of — Stevens weak trades.

In which case, if you just don’t like any negativity, why read it and / or comment at all?

I happen to have strong concern about the very obvious problem White has become, and how he may very well need to be removed from the playoffs rotation due to the liability he represents offensively. What coach is going to bother defending him? The Cs essentially play 4 on 5 when he’s on the floor.

Are we living in some alternate reality here? On what planet are they going to remove White from the playoff rotation?? What are we doing here people. Lol. White is been pretty good. Yes, his 3 pt shot isn’t falling. But it’s not like he can’t go to the hoop, defend, initiate offense. This is a truly ridiculous take.

Nothing new here (ridiculous takes).

People here see guys have a slump and go "ugh trade this fool".

Here we are, end of the season, closing in on third, heck, maybe even second seed.

People have no patience. No chill. Just knee-jerking negativity and never believe people can actually IMPROVE.

Seriously.

Everyone's been shooting under their career percentages. That's evening out now. Heck, there's memes about JT always having a crappy early season and then rounding into superstar form towards the end.

This isn't new.

Teams developing chemistry isn't new.

New players that struggle for a bit before contributing, isn't new.

Life gets a lot more fun when you practice a little bit of patience, and occasionally believe people can become better.

Or, y'know. Just keep the short-sighted (quite literally) approach and stay negative.

Should've seen this coming at the start of the season too, when Smart made 1 bad play that "cost us a game" and people wanted him outta town.

Over 1 mistake. Hah.

Short, sighted.

Pardon the dire post. Just been a shame losing this place cuz I love the Celtics, but really dislike the negativity here all the time.

[Vermont Green]

I dug up some interesting line up data (at least interesting to me) concerning White.  I wanted to see if he was better with Smart or better with Pritchard (this is for the last 15 games):

White + Pritch    +56 / 142 min
White + Smart   -21 / 175 min
Smart + Pritch   +11 / 34 min  (No White)

White +Brown + Tatum  +36 / 58 min (no Smart or Pritchard)

What stands out with this is that White is fine except when playing with Smart.  +92 without Smart, -21 with Smart.  That is based on 15 games and over 400 minutes.  So what is the deal with Smart and White?

[Donoghus]

Man, enjoy what's in front of you right now.  Fanbases would kill to have what the Celtics have going right now. 

Worry about this stuff down the road.

[colincb]

I dug up some interesting line up data (at least interesting to me) concerning White.  I wanted to see if he was better with Smart or better with Pritchard (this is for the last 15 games):

White + Pritch    +56 / 142 min
White + Smart   -21 / 175 min
Smart + Pritch   +11 / 34 min

White +Brown + Tatum  +36 / 58 min (no Smart or Pritchard)

What stands out with this is that White is fine except when playing with Smart.  +103 without Smart, -21 with Smart.  That is based on 15 games and over 400 minutes.  So what is the deal with Smart and White?

Duplicative skills. They're both excellent defenders, distribute well, and shoot not so well.

[Atzar]

I dug up some interesting line up data (at least interesting to me) concerning White.  I wanted to see if he was better with Smart or better with Pritchard (this is for the last 15 games):

White + Pritch    +56 / 142 min
White + Smart   -21 / 175 min
Smart + Pritch   +11 / 34 min

White +Brown + Tatum  +36 / 58 min (no Smart or Pritchard)

What stands out with this is that White is fine except when playing with Smart.  +103 without Smart, -21 with Smart.  That is based on 15 games and over 400 minutes.  So what is the deal with Smart and White?

All of those stats are still very subject to sample size noise.  Having said that, I wonder (without evidence or film to back this up) if Smart and White might be somewhat redundant on offense.  In comparison, Pritchard has a very different skillset and synergizes with one of the two much better than they do with each other.

Just a guess.

[todd_days_41]

Two guys on the team minus tonight despite this stellar performance in Denver: Theis and White.

But they make everyone else soooooo much better!!

Celtics are 10-3 since the deadline, just blew out another playoff team on the road, Theis and White had productive time in this game, and all you can do is come here and complain about their +/- tonight?

Okay, I give in to you. You changed my mind. The trades sucked. White and Theis are trash. Stevens is terrible. Udoka is awful. This team could have been playing so much better if only Richardson, Langford and Schröder were still here.

I'm outta this thread.

Man, do you need a box of tissues or what? Considering your deep acumen on the team, presumably you don’t actually believe the Cs late success is due to — instead of in spite of — Stevens weak trades.

In which case, if you just don’t like any negativity, why read it and / or comment at all?

I happen to have strong concern about the very obvious problem White has become, and how he may very well need to be removed from the playoffs rotation due to the liability he represents offensively. What coach is going to bother defending him? The Cs essentially play 4 on 5 when he’s on the floor.

Are we living in some alternate reality here? On what planet are they going to remove White from the playoff rotation?? What are we doing here people. Lol. White is been pretty good. Yes, his 3 pt shot isn’t falling. But it’s not like he can’t go to the hoop, defend, initiate offense. This is a truly ridiculous take.

Nothing new here (ridiculous takes).

People here see guys have a slump and go "ugh trade this fool".

Here we are, end of the season, closing in on third, heck, maybe even second seed.

People have no patience. No chill. Just knee-jerking negativity and never believe people can actually IMPROVE.

Seriously.

Everyone's been shooting under their career percentages. That's evening out now. Heck, there's memes about JT always having a crappy early season and then rounding into superstar form towards the end.

This isn't new.

Teams developing chemistry isn't new.

New players that struggle for a bit before contributing, isn't new.

Life gets a lot more fun when you practice a little bit of patience, and occasionally believe people can become better.

Or, y'know. Just keep the short-sighted (quite literally) approach and stay negative.

Should've seen this coming at the start of the season too, when Smart made 1 bad play that "cost us a game" and people wanted him outta town.

Over 1 mistake. Hah.

Short, sighted.

Pardon the dire post. Just been a shame losing this place cuz I love the Celtics, but really dislike the negativity here all the time.

It's far from ridiculous.

What PG or SG on another team will be a regular part of their team's playoff rotation while shooting ~20% from three? Or ~37% from the field? How many minutes is that player actually going to play? How many 4th quarter minutes? And does that team have any true aspirations of a championship?

White's shooting 10-12% worse from 3 than the closest like-examples... guys like Thybuille and Okoro. But Thybuille is a longer, better defender; a better shooter; and yet will also likely will see tighter minutes in lieu of Green, Korkmaz, and Milton when it counts due to his offensive liability.

Why would any opposing coach defend White in the playoffs? They won't -- his defender will sink off him to the paint and / or double Tatum or Brown until he proves he can make shots. So how many minutes will Udoka actually play White under the circumstances? If he can't improve his shot, he's a situational player only.

I get that folks don't like it. But the reality is ugly. He needs to turn a big corner in the last couple weeks of the season to be a positive for this team. Dismissing the problem would be ridiculous.