Lebron James out, further treatment on knee

[Roy H.]

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I think a couple of you are piling dirt on Lebron's grave a little too soon.  Yes, he's 38.  Yes, he's finally showing mortality with injuries.

But, in terms of numbers:

29.1 ppg (4th best in his career)
.588 eFG% (5th best in career)
62.5% 2PT% (best in his career)
2.8 3PM (best in his career)
1.1 blocks (3rd best in his career)
3.1 turnovers (3rd lowest in his career)

He's above his career averages in rebounds, FT%, FG%.  His points per 36 minutes are the highest of his career.

I want to see this trade, haha:

BRK trades:  Harden
BRK receives:  Lebron

PHI trades: Simmons
PHI receives:  Harden

LAL trades:  Lebron
LAL receives:  Simmons

The clear winner there is Brooklyn, right?  I think so, because Lebron is still a superstar.  For the next three seasons, I suspect he'll still be a top five-ish player in the NBA (clearly behind only Giannis, Jokic, Embiid and Durant).

I'm not piling dirt, personally, but I don't think he's the player who can carry an otherwise abysmal team far in the playoffs any more.  He's not going to pull off some run like in 2017 where he got to the finals with the shell of Kevin Love and no one else.  He's not going pull an otherwise mediocre team to a 66-16 record and conference finals appearance like in the 2008-2009 season.  There are probably 10-12 teams where he could come in, be the best player, and elevate them to being a true championship contender for the next couple of years.  The Celtics are one of those teams.  The Lakers are not.  He's diminished from his greatness.  He is still great, but the Lakers this year need him to be about 10 years younger for them to really have a chance.

As tazz says, can any player do that?  Hell, in NBA history there are only a handful who could.  In the past 40 years, you've got Bird, Duncan and Lebron who have carried bad / mediocre teams to 60 win seasons and championships.  Hakeem is in that conversation, Shaq too.  And that's pretty much it, in terms of players who have demonstrated the ability.

In terms of the top four or five players in the league, can any of Jokic, Giannis, Curry or Durant carry a bad team for extended stretch?  Results suggest otherwise.

I agree with you on the larger point:  Lebron is still an All-NBA player who would elevate any well-constructed team to contender status.

I think I must have left out a point I was trying to make.  LeBron can’t carry teams like he used to, but he’s still trying.  He’s playing nearly as many minutes per game as he did his last season in Cleveland, when he led the league in that.  But at 37, with injuries that are quickly mounting, I think this will hasten his demise.  He can’t go at the pace he used to, and the Lakers can’t survive if he doesn’t.

I will add he also stays in in blowouts cause he is chasing points and the kareem record. That is making all the things you said above worse there have been a lot of games the team has been down 20-25 and he is still out there with 5 minutes left. How Kerr manages his stars in golden state regardless of what side of a blowout they are in is night and day.

You think so?  He’s maybe 80 games away, so he should hit it next season, and 40k points the following year.  Is marginally getting there faster worth the extra wear and tear?

[Moranis]

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I think a couple of you are piling dirt on Lebron's grave a little too soon.  Yes, he's 38.  Yes, he's finally showing mortality with injuries.

But, in terms of numbers:

29.1 ppg (4th best in his career)
.588 eFG% (5th best in career)
62.5% 2PT% (best in his career)
2.8 3PM (best in his career)
1.1 blocks (3rd best in his career)
3.1 turnovers (3rd lowest in his career)

He's above his career averages in rebounds, FT%, FG%.  His points per 36 minutes are the highest of his career.

I want to see this trade, haha:

BRK trades:  Harden
BRK receives:  Lebron

PHI trades: Simmons
PHI receives:  Harden

LAL trades:  Lebron
LAL receives:  Simmons

The clear winner there is Brooklyn, right?  I think so, because Lebron is still a superstar.  For the next three seasons, I suspect he'll still be a top five-ish player in the NBA (clearly behind only Giannis, Jokic, Embiid and Durant).

I'm not piling dirt, personally, but I don't think he's the player who can carry an otherwise abysmal team far in the playoffs any more.  He's not going to pull off some run like in 2017 where he got to the finals with the shell of Kevin Love and no one else.  He's not going pull an otherwise mediocre team to a 66-16 record and conference finals appearance like in the 2008-2009 season.  There are probably 10-12 teams where he could come in, be the best player, and elevate them to being a true championship contender for the next couple of years.  The Celtics are one of those teams.  The Lakers are not.  He's diminished from his greatness.  He is still great, but the Lakers this year need him to be about 10 years younger for them to really have a chance.

As tazz says, can any player do that?  Hell, in NBA history there are only a handful who could.  In the past 40 years, you've got Bird, Duncan and Lebron who have carried bad / mediocre teams to 60 win seasons and championships.  Hakeem is in that conversation, Shaq too.  And that's pretty much it, in terms of players who have demonstrated the ability.

In terms of the top four or five players in the league, can any of Jokic, Giannis, Curry or Durant carry a bad team for extended stretch?  Results suggest otherwise.

I agree with you on the larger point:  Lebron is still an All-NBA player who would elevate any well-constructed team to contender status.

I think I must have left out a point I was trying to make.  LeBron can’t carry teams like he used to, but he’s still trying.  He’s playing nearly as many minutes per game as he did his last season in Cleveland, when he led the league in that.  But at 37, with injuries that are quickly mounting, I think this will hasten his demise.  He can’t go at the pace he used to, and the Lakers can’t survive if he doesn’t.

I will add he also stays in in blowouts cause he is chasing points and the kareem record. That is making all the things you said above worse there have been a lot of games the team has been down 20-25 and he is still out there with 5 minutes left. How Kerr manages his stars in golden state regardless of what side of a blowout they are in is night and day.

You think so?  He’s maybe 80 games away, so he should hit it next season, and 40k points the following year.  Is marginally getting there faster worth the extra wear and tear?

As I said in my prior post, that is just who Lebron is.  He has more of the old school mentality that if you are healthy you suit up and you play the whole game, which makes him different than a lot of the other modern stars who take rest a lot more often both in games and just missing games in general.  Lebron played at the end of blowouts when he was a rookie.  That is just who he is as a player.

[celticsclay]

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I think a couple of you are piling dirt on Lebron's grave a little too soon.  Yes, he's 38.  Yes, he's finally showing mortality with injuries.

But, in terms of numbers:

29.1 ppg (4th best in his career)
.588 eFG% (5th best in career)
62.5% 2PT% (best in his career)
2.8 3PM (best in his career)
1.1 blocks (3rd best in his career)
3.1 turnovers (3rd lowest in his career)

He's above his career averages in rebounds, FT%, FG%.  His points per 36 minutes are the highest of his career.

I want to see this trade, haha:

BRK trades:  Harden
BRK receives:  Lebron

PHI trades: Simmons
PHI receives:  Harden

LAL trades:  Lebron
LAL receives:  Simmons

The clear winner there is Brooklyn, right?  I think so, because Lebron is still a superstar.  For the next three seasons, I suspect he'll still be a top five-ish player in the NBA (clearly behind only Giannis, Jokic, Embiid and Durant).

I'm not piling dirt, personally, but I don't think he's the player who can carry an otherwise abysmal team far in the playoffs any more.  He's not going to pull off some run like in 2017 where he got to the finals with the shell of Kevin Love and no one else.  He's not going pull an otherwise mediocre team to a 66-16 record and conference finals appearance like in the 2008-2009 season.  There are probably 10-12 teams where he could come in, be the best player, and elevate them to being a true championship contender for the next couple of years.  The Celtics are one of those teams.  The Lakers are not.  He's diminished from his greatness.  He is still great, but the Lakers this year need him to be about 10 years younger for them to really have a chance.

As tazz says, can any player do that?  Hell, in NBA history there are only a handful who could.  In the past 40 years, you've got Bird, Duncan and Lebron who have carried bad / mediocre teams to 60 win seasons and championships.  Hakeem is in that conversation, Shaq too.  And that's pretty much it, in terms of players who have demonstrated the ability.

In terms of the top four or five players in the league, can any of Jokic, Giannis, Curry or Durant carry a bad team for extended stretch?  Results suggest otherwise.

I agree with you on the larger point:  Lebron is still an All-NBA player who would elevate any well-constructed team to contender status.

I think I must have left out a point I was trying to make.  LeBron can’t carry teams like he used to, but he’s still trying.  He’s playing nearly as many minutes per game as he did his last season in Cleveland, when he led the league in that.  But at 37, with injuries that are quickly mounting, I think this will hasten his demise.  He can’t go at the pace he used to, and the Lakers can’t survive if he doesn’t.

I will add he also stays in in blowouts cause he is chasing points and the kareem record. That is making all the things you said above worse there have been a lot of games the team has been down 20-25 and he is still out there with 5 minutes left. How Kerr manages his stars in golden state regardless of what side of a blowout they are in is night and day.

Lebron has never left games early, or at least not very many.  He has played that way since he was a rookie and that is much more in line with the way stars used to be used.  Jordan, for example, played like 40 minutes a night every single game in his prime.  Even the 2nd 3 peat he was still around 38 mpg or 39 mpg and he played all 82 games all 3 of those years.  Lebron will take some days off, but when he suits up, he wants to get in his work.  Now that may not be the best strategy with a 37 year old who has played the 3rd most regular season minutes in NBA history, but that is who Lebron has always been.  If he plays, he plays a lot.

I’m not really sure what you are trying to say here beyond just a vague blanket defense of Lebron. I’ll give you an example, a few weeks ago the lakers were down about 11 to somebody I am not remembering off the top of my head. The team took a gentleman’s shot clock violation with like 4.5 seconds left. I have seen this situation probably a thousand times and can’t really recall another time I see a player run the length of the court and try to take a layup in this situation like Lebron did here to hit an open layup with no time left.The commentators even kind of made a joke about it and the player half guarding him just looked confused. It’s about transparent stat chasing as you can get. Another time he famously stayed in a game injured when he had 8 points hit one more shot to keep his double digits points streak alive. This isn’t an old school things, it’s just stat chasing and if anything it happens more now than it did Jordan’s era. I mean I don’t how much simpler it is point out that if Mj was obsessed with stats he wouldn’t have left the game after the first three peat or retired after the second one. He was certainly ultra competitive but was not even crossing his mind to try and become an all time leader in points or all star appearances. And yes staying in games to chase stats as a banged up 37 year old is very bad for winning in the big picture.

Edit here is the game Lebron stayed in to keep double digits streak alive. He left immediately after hitting a three to get ten. This isn’t competitiveness (you could make an argument he wanted to win so bad if he stayed in the game longer) but he left immediately after getting it.

https://www.nba.com/news/lebron-james-leaves-lakers-game-with-right-ankle-injury-will-not-return?amp=1

[Roy H.]

Edit here is the game Lebron stayed in to keep double digits streak alive. He left immediately after hitting a three to get ten. This isn’t competitiveness (you could make an argument he wanted to win so bad if he stayed in the game longer) but he left immediately after getting it.

https://www.nba.com/news/lebron-james-leaves-lakers-game-with-right-ankle-injury-will-not-return?amp=1

It could mean that.  Or it could mean he tried to gut it out in a close game, played on the ankle for literally 22 seconds, and then decided it was too much.

[celticsclay]

Edit here is the game Lebron stayed in to keep double digits streak alive. He left immediately after hitting a three to get ten. This isn’t competitiveness (you could make an argument he wanted to win so bad if he stayed in the game longer) but he left immediately after getting it.

https://www.nba.com/news/lebron-james-leaves-lakers-game-with-right-ankle-injury-will-not-return?amp=1

It could mean that.  Or it could mean he tried to gut it out in a close game, played on the ankle for literally 22 seconds, and then decided it was too much.

Roy is this serious? There are other examples of him doing this kind of thing. I don’t really know how more transparent it could be that Lebron chases stats sometimes could be. He is a great player, has been amazing to watch, and am very impressed by the amount of effort and time he puts into managing his body. But some of the stuff defending fairly basic concepts about him like he chases stats/cares about recognition/perception are approaching extreme mental gymnastics.

[Roy H.]

Edit here is the game Lebron stayed in to keep double digits streak alive. He left immediately after hitting a three to get ten. This isn’t competitiveness (you could make an argument he wanted to win so bad if he stayed in the game longer) but he left immediately after getting it.

https://www.nba.com/news/lebron-james-leaves-lakers-game-with-right-ankle-injury-will-not-return?amp=1

It could mean that.  Or it could mean he tried to gut it out in a close game, played on the ankle for literally 22 seconds, and then decided it was too much.

Roy is this serious? There are other examples of him doing this kind of thing. I don’t really know how more transparent it could be that Lebron chases stats sometimes could be. He is a great player, has been amazing to watch, and am very impressed by the amount of effort and time he puts into managing his body. But some of the stuff defending fairly basic concepts about him like he chases stats/cares about recognition/perception are approaching extreme mental gymnastics.

Of course I’m serious.  The guy played 22 seconds after injury.  I’m not going to assume he was chasing stats.

If Lebron is all about chasing points, why does he get his teammates involved so much?  The guy could have easily been a 30 ppg scorer for his entire prime, but has instead focused on making smart plays.

Do we call Larry Bird a stats chaser because he one-upped McHale once?

[Moranis]

Edit here is the game Lebron stayed in to keep double digits streak alive. He left immediately after hitting a three to get ten. This isn’t competitiveness (you could make an argument he wanted to win so bad if he stayed in the game longer) but he left immediately after getting it.

https://www.nba.com/news/lebron-james-leaves-lakers-game-with-right-ankle-injury-will-not-return?amp=1

It could mean that.  Or it could mean he tried to gut it out in a close game, played on the ankle for literally 22 seconds, and then decided it was too much.

Roy is this serious? There are other examples of him doing this kind of thing. I don’t really know how more transparent it could be that Lebron chases stats sometimes could be. He is a great player, has been amazing to watch, and am very impressed by the amount of effort and time he puts into managing his body. But some of the stuff defending fairly basic concepts about him like he chases stats/cares about recognition/perception are approaching extreme mental gymnastics.

Of course I’m serious.  The guy played 22 seconds after injury.  I’m not going to assume he was chasing stats.

If Lebron is all about chasing points, why does he get his teammates involved so much?  The guy could have easily been a 30 ppg scorer for his entire prime, but has instead focused on making smart plays.

Do we call Larry Bird a stats chaser because he one-upped McHale once?

He played the whole next defensive possession and then realized he couldn't go and called timeout.  he was then out for a month.

[celticsclay]

Edit here is the game Lebron stayed in to keep double digits streak alive. He left immediately after hitting a three to get ten. This isn’t competitiveness (you could make an argument he wanted to win so bad if he stayed in the game longer) but he left immediately after getting it.

https://www.nba.com/news/lebron-james-leaves-lakers-game-with-right-ankle-injury-will-not-return?amp=1

It could mean that.  Or it could mean he tried to gut it out in a close game, played on the ankle for literally 22 seconds, and then decided it was too much.

Roy is this serious? There are other examples of him doing this kind of thing. I don’t really know how more transparent it could be that Lebron chases stats sometimes could be. He is a great player, has been amazing to watch, and am very impressed by the amount of effort and time he puts into managing his body. But some of the stuff defending fairly basic concepts about him like he chases stats/cares about recognition/perception are approaching extreme mental gymnastics.

Of course I’m serious.  The guy played 22 seconds after injury.  I’m not going to assume he was chasing stats.

If Lebron is all about chasing points, why does he get his teammates involved so much?  The guy could have easily been a 30 ppg scorer for his entire prime, but has instead focused on making smart plays.

Do we call Larry Bird a stats chaser because he one-upped McHale once?

I’m not saying he is only chasing points. Obviously he could have averaged more points if he only cared about points. He has cared about different milestones throughout his career. More recently some of these have been tied to points. As he approaches the all time scoring mark this is definitely something he is aware of and he has publicly acknowledged it. There is zero doubt in my mind that he was aware of the ten point streak and wanted to get it when he did that. There was another instance where he stayed in a game to get some meaningless buckets to keep his streak/total numbers of 25ppg average Alive. The instance of him going in for an uncontested layup a few weeks back at the buzzer after the other team had just taken a shot clock violation was so obvious the lakers commentators were joking about it. I’m frankly pretty surprised I have to explain this cause I thought it was commonly accepted as part of his personality. I also obviously don’t think this is some horrible flaw but it has become potentially more dangerous for his team having success in the playoffs when he is staying in blowout games to add to his point totals. As for bird, I think there were probably instances of him chasing stats. I don’t know if this contributed to his back issues or not as there isn’t really easily available media coverage of these kind of things from his era. I believe wilt chamberlain did some of this and even went out of his way to lead the league in assists one season to prove a point. It’s not always a bad thing. But in lebrons case at the stage of his career it is becoming a potentially dangerous personality characteristic and pretending it is not happening is pretty weird to me.

[Moranis]

Sure but you ignore all of the games he comes out at the end of blowouts.  You focus on a game here or there and put your negative spin on it.  I mean looking at the Lakers scores, I see Lebron coming out of the January 15th loss to Denver with around 8 minutes left.  He came out against Memphis on January 9th also around the 8 minute mark.  The December 23rd blow out against the Spurs he came out with about 6 minutes left. The December 21st game against Phoenix, he came out with about 3 minutes left when Paul, Booker, and Ayton all left the game.  December 17th against the Wolves, about the 5 minute mark.

I'm not seeing a lot of games where Lebron is staying in until the bitter end when the Lakers aren't in the game.  Lebron doesn't play in the blow out losses at all. 

[celticsclay]

Edit here is the game Lebron stayed in to keep double digits streak alive. He left immediately after hitting a three to get ten. This isn’t competitiveness (you could make an argument he wanted to win so bad if he stayed in the game longer) but he left immediately after getting it.

https://www.nba.com/news/lebron-james-leaves-lakers-game-with-right-ankle-injury-will-not-return?amp=1

It could mean that.  Or it could mean he tried to gut it out in a close game, played on the ankle for literally 22 seconds, and then decided it was too much.

Roy is this serious? There are other examples of him doing this kind of thing. I don’t really know how more transparent it could be that Lebron chases stats sometimes could be. He is a great player, has been amazing to watch, and am very impressed by the amount of effort and time he puts into managing his body. But some of the stuff defending fairly basic concepts about him like he chases stats/cares about recognition/perception are approaching extreme mental gymnastics.

Of course I’m serious.  The guy played 22 seconds after injury.  I’m not going to assume he was chasing stats.

If Lebron is all about chasing points, why does he get his teammates involved so much?  The guy could have easily been a 30 ppg scorer for his entire prime, but has instead focused on making smart plays.

Do we call Larry Bird a stats chaser because he one-upped McHale once?

He played the whole next defensive possession and then realized he couldn't go and called timeout.  he was then out for a month.

Come on Mo. Lebron could miss a free throw and you would come up with some explanation of why he either did it intentionally or bring up some time mj missed a free throw. It’s obviously a waste of both our times to debate Lebron related topics with you.

[celticsclay]

Edit here is the game Lebron stayed in to keep double digits streak alive. He left immediately after hitting a three to get ten. This isn’t competitiveness (you could make an argument he wanted to win so bad if he stayed in the game longer) but he left immediately after getting it.

https://www.nba.com/news/lebron-james-leaves-lakers-game-with-right-ankle-injury-will-not-return?amp=1

It could mean that.  Or it could mean he tried to gut it out in a close game, played on the ankle for literally 22 seconds, and then decided it was too much.

Roy is this serious? There are other examples of him doing this kind of thing. I don’t really know how more transparent it could be that Lebron chases stats sometimes could be. He is a great player, has been amazing to watch, and am very impressed by the amount of effort and time he puts into managing his body. But some of the stuff defending fairly basic concepts about him like he chases stats/cares about recognition/perception are approaching extreme mental gymnastics.

Of course I’m serious.  The guy played 22 seconds after injury.  I’m not going to assume he was chasing stats.

If Lebron is all about chasing points, why does he get his teammates involved so much?  The guy could have easily been a 30 ppg scorer for his entire prime, but has instead focused on making smart plays.

Do we call Larry Bird a stats chaser because he one-upped McHale once?

He played the whole next defensive possession and then realized he couldn't go and called timeout.  he was then out for a month.

Come on Mo. Lebron could miss a free throw and you would come up with some explanation of why he either did it intentionally or bring up some time mj missed a free throw. It’s obviously a waste of both our times to debate Lebron related topics with you.