How good is our “supporting cast”?

[Roy H.]

Compared to the other 29 teams, how good is our team from player #3 to #15? 

The basic rotation beyond the Jays is Timelord, Horford, Smart, Richardson, Schroder, and Williams.  Freedom, Langford, Prichard and Nesmith see minutes.

This isn’t a coaching thread, so please focus on talent, ability and fit.

[wdleehi]

I think the talent and ability of the top 10 players is good.


The fit on the other end is terrible.   There are certain skills (shooting, passing) that is lacking at the role positions. 


After the top 10, I think there is a drop off in terms of players being able to play a role.

[LilRip]

In terms of raw talent, we have good raw talent: Schroder, Jrich, Smart, Timelord and Horford are all good enough to be rotation players on any team. They’d probably start on many teams too, particularly Smart and Timelord. So we have 5 starter-level quality players on top of our 2 allstars.

As for fit though, I think it’s a poor fit. Those 5 guys are average shooters at best (granted that’s not TL’s game) and can be duds from the outside if they don’t have it going. Horford was more consistent when he was younger but his allstar days are behind him.

The C’s offense is nowhere near dynamic enough to consistently cover up for the poor fit, unless JB and/or JT are making tough shots or going nuclear in some other stretch. When one of those 5 get hot too (like Schroder has in some games), he can also kick the team up into playing above its potential.

So essentially, inconsistency is the real identity of this team, bolstered by its roster construction. The 0.500 ish record is indicative of that
—

Grant, Pritchard, Freedom and Langford - I could see getting minutes here and there on other rosters but they’d undoubtedly be weak points on the roster. Nesmith has looked pretty garbage for the most part when he’s seen minutes

[Who]

Solid but unexceptional.

I really like Marcus Smart and Rob Williams. They are high end glue guys. Horford is getting older and it is no longer clear he is a high end role player but he is still a good role player as a center in lower minutes. Josh Richardson is inconsistent but capable. Schroder likewise is erratic but highly capable. A 6MOY candidate talent wise.

Grant Williams has become a capable bench player (limited but useful). Pritchard is a solid bench guard with terrific shooting capabilities. Kanter is a terrific 3rd string center to middling primary backup center. Romeo is a good defensive player but a woeful offensive player and is no more than a dodgy 3rd stringer until he develops a dependable offensive game. Nesmith has been horrible this year but I like his talent and do believe he has more to offer and can be a good bench SF.

[Who]

To look at it another way, I'd say that our Jays are not good enough as a #1 and #2 to play without a third star.

Our team lacks that third star.

The quality of the supporting cast behind that vacant role would be strong and well above average (Championship caliber) if that role was filled.

However, that role is not filled and that lack of a 3rd star is what stops this supporting cast from being a high level supporting group and more middle of the pack. Why I said solid but unexceptional. It is enough to be a 45-50 win type team. A good team but not a high end team.

[BruceBanner18]

The rest of the roster is horribleness.

Outside of our two all stars we have one NBA starter caliber player in Robert Williams. Although his inability to stay healthy in past years makes him borderline imo though at this point.

The rest of the roster is 2 6th man guards who can't shoot and a G league roster.

If either Tatum or Brown get hurt the Celtics aren't much better than Detroit, Orlando or Houston.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Great question:

Williams - starting level talent on a playoff team. Not on the level of a DeAndre Ayton, but comparable to a guy like John Collins. Somewhere between a starter and an almost all-star.

Horford - This one is tough. His numbers look good, but ever since he left the Cs and the offense hasn't focused around him, he hasn't been as effective on the court, regardless of what the numbers say. I see him as a high level bench player on a good playoff team. Think Kleber or Looney.

Smart - Again, this is tough. Truthfully, the answer might be in the eye of the beholder. Smart would likely be more valuable on a team with a set hierarchy and offense, like for instance Golden State. I do think he is starter and difference-maker on the right contending team. Gary Harris (for the Nuggets), Royce O'neal, Danny Green, or a Draymond-lite are all comparisons to me.

Richardson - As an 8-9th man on a playoff team, solid. I see him comparable to Toscano-Anderson, Bruce Brown, or Eric Bledsoe-lite.

Schroder - He was the 4th best player on a championship team with the Lakers.

G Williams - As a 9th-10th guy, solid. He's comparable to a Markief Morris or JaMichael Green.

Freedom - solid. At this point in the rotation, you want specialists that can impact the game in short stints.

Langford - solid. I'm probably higher on him than most Celtic fans. For some reason, his coaches like playing him a lot. He makes good defense plays on ball and off ball. His shooting has improved. I see him as a Covington-lite, Thybulle-lite.

I think Brad Stevens did an amazing job raising the talent level of this team in one off-season, which is also why I'm hopeful about the future. The problem this year is not talent, but fit. We need Tatum and Brown to step forward through the rest of the year so everyone can find their place in orbit around them.

[RJ87]

Great question:

Williams - starting level talent on a playoff team. Not on the level of a DeAndre Ayton, but comparable to a guy like John Collins. Somewhere between a starter and an almost all-star.

Horford - This one is tough. His numbers look good, but ever since he left the Cs and the offense hasn't focused around him, he hasn't been as effective on the court, regardless of what the numbers say. I see him as a high level bench player on a good playoff team. Think Kleber or Looney.

Smart - Again, this is tough. Truthfully, the answer might be in the eye of the beholder. Smart would likely be more valuable on a team with a set hierarchy and offense, like for instance Golden State. I do think he is starter and difference-maker on the right contending team. Gary Harris (for the Nuggets), Royce O'neal, Danny Green, or a Draymond-lite are all comparisons to me.

Richardson - As an 8-9th man on a playoff team, solid. I see him comparable to Toscano-Anderson, Bruce Brown, or Eric Bledsoe-lite.

Schroder - He was the 4th best player on a championship team with the Lakers.

G Williams - As a 9th-10th guy, solid. He's comparable to a Markief Morris or JaMichael Green.

Freedom - solid. At this point in the rotation, you want specialists that can impact the game in short stints.

Langford - solid. I'm probably higher on him than most Celtic fans. For some reason, his coaches like playing him a lot. He makes good defense plays on ball and off ball. His shooting has improved. I see him as a Covington-lite, Thybulle-lite.

I think Brad Stevens did an amazing job raising the talent level of this team in one off-season, which is also why I'm hopeful about the future. The problem this year is not talent, but fit. We need Tatum and Brown to step forward through the rest of the year so everyone can find their place in orbit around them.

Lakers won the championship before they acquired Schroeder. He was on the failed repeat team that got bounced by the Suns in the first round.

As to the original question, I think on paper those are really solid players. But none of them fit what we need around the Jays badly - playmaking and average to above average shooting.

[CBS_Take a Report]

To look at it another way, I'd say that our Jays are not good enough as a #1 and #2 to play without a third star.

Our team lacks that third star.

The quality of the supporting cast behind that vacant role would be strong and well above average (Championship caliber) if that role was filled.

However, that role is not filled and that lack of a 3rd star is what stops this supporting cast from being a high level supporting group and more middle of the pack. Why I said solid but unexceptional. It is enough to be a 45-50 win type team. A good team but not a high end team.

TP. The Jays are building towards being bonafide all stars year in year out. They were given the reigns a little too prematurely. They needed the 3rd all star above them for them to chase down and grow. And we are still lacking this.

Would be wonderful if we could find a way to keep as many of the supporting cast members discussed AND add the 3rd star.

With Al’s waivable contract next year given it is highly unlikely we win the championship, this should free up $17-20ish million.

Any cap gurus out there that can help us better understand projected available cap space which would allow us to keep current supporting role players as well as attract that 3rd elusive star?

[Atzar]

I think the talent level is decent.  We're deep on players who can play at an NBA level.  I don't think our pieces fit well together at all, though.  Just don't shoot well enough. 

Grant Williams and Josh Richardson have shot well, and Pritchard is back in the realm of average after his poor start.  Jaylen is doing Jaylen things, mostly.  But guys like Smart, Horford, Schroder, and even Tatum are putting up a ton of shots from outside and just laying bricks this season.  Meanwhile, Grant and Josh are low-volume shooters despite their success. 

I'd give a lot for some guys who can hit outside shots to open things up for this offense.  I'm not asking for stars.  A couple of guys in the mold of Pat Connaughton or PJ Washington would make a big difference. 

[CFAN38]

To look at it another way, I'd say that our Jays are not good enough as a #1 and #2 to play without a third star.

Our team lacks that third star.

The quality of the supporting cast behind that vacant role would be strong and well above average (Championship caliber) if that role was filled.

However, that role is not filled and that lack of a 3rd star is what stops this supporting cast from being a high level supporting group and more middle of the pack. Why I said solid but unexceptional. It is enough to be a 45-50 win type team. A good team but not a high end team.

Im not sold on the idea that the Tatum and Brown lead Cs need a 3rd star to be a top team in the NBA. If they had a true PG at the level of Brogdon, Lonzo, Conley, maybe Brunson? and a solid 3rd scoring option (Hield, Barnes, J Grant, Powell, or Will Barton) they could very well be a championship level team. One of those two and they are back in the mix at the top of the East.

[Moranis]

Awful.  The roster is, and has been, the problem.

I mean just look at the C's roster the last time it went to the ECF just 2 seasons ago (excluding Tatum and Brown).

Hayward, Walker, Theis, Smart, Freedom, Semi, Grant, Robert, Wanamaker, Romeo


And that was a fairly big drop off from the 2 seasons before that when Boston had

Irving, Hayward, Morris, Horford, Smart, Rozier, Baynes, Theis, Semi, Wanamaker, Robert


The simple reality is the roster has been hemorrhaging talent for years and is just awful.


Boston is quite simply a bad team talent wise past the top 2.  I mean look at the Cavs.  Taking aside Sexton after Allen and Garland they have Mobley, Markkanen, Love, Okoro, Osman, Rondo/Rubio, Wade, Windler.  And no one trusts the Cavs, but that is their roster taking away their leading scorer of the last couple of seasons who got injured this year.

The Bulls outside of DeRozan and LaVine have Ball and Vucevic plus Caruso, P. Williams, White, etc. 

The Bucks have Holiday, Lopez, Portis, Allen, Connaughton, Hill, Matthews, Semi, DiVincenzo (injured), Hood, etc.


Even the worst team in the league i.e. Orlando arguably is better 3-15 than Boston so if Anthony and F. Wagner are 1 and 2 that gives them Carter Jr., Harris, Bamba, Suggs, Ross, Okeke, Hampton, M. Wagner (I think Boston is better, but not so much better you couldn't have a discussion especially since there is no one like Jalen Suggs on Boston's roster).


Boston has a bad roster which is compounded by being led by two all star caliber wings that are both best suited at SF and who occupy the same space on the floor (i.e. making them ill fitting as a duo). 

[td450]

To look at it another way, I'd say that our Jays are not good enough as a #1 and #2 to play without a third star.

Our team lacks that third star.

The quality of the supporting cast behind that vacant role would be strong and well above average (Championship caliber) if that role was filled.

However, that role is not filled and that lack of a 3rd star is what stops this supporting cast from being a high level supporting group and more middle of the pack. Why I said solid but unexceptional. It is enough to be a 45-50 win type team. A good team but not a high end team.

Im not sold on the idea that the Tatum and Brown lead Cs need a 3rd star to be a top team in the NBA. If they had a true PG at the level of Brogdon, Lonzo, Conley, maybe Brunson? and a solid 3rd scoring option (Hield, Barnes, J Grant, Powell, or Will Barton) they could very well be a championship level team. One of those two and they are back in the mix at the top of the East.

I agree. This is a NOT trade proposal, but just a thought experiment: Add Lonzo Ball and Harrison Barnes (two plus starters that fit, not stars) and subtract Smart, Schroder, Richardson, and frankly anyone else except Robert Williams, if you want. We would immediately become one of the best teams in the league.

In a different context,  Smart, Schroder and Richardson can all be competitive players, but together here, with our two stars, they make us a .500 team.

[showtime]

 Take Tatum, Brown and Rwill off the Celtics, and we have the worst talent in the league! Our offense would do good to score 80 points per game!

[Csfan1984]

I will judge them "fit", "dependability", "compared to others league wide at position" and do the whole main rotation. I feel it's important that everyone get judged similarly.

5=great, 4=good, 3=average, 2=below Avg, 1=poor
Best score possible 15

Fit, Dependability, league comparison
PG=Smart 4, 3, 2 (9) / Schro 3, 4, 3 (10)
SG= JB 4, 4, 4. (12) / Josh 4, 3, 3. (10)
SF= JT 4, 4, 5 (13) / Lang 3, 1, 1 (5)
PF= Al 3, 2, 3 ( 8 ) / GW 4, 2, 3 (9)
C= TL 3, 1, 4 ( 8 ) / Free 2, 5, 2 (9)

Pp 3, 2, 2 (7)

So you take whatever number you put value on and that's my opinion on their role. Smart takes a hit on comparison because PG isn't good for him. If at SG I'd give Smart a 4 for comparison.