Trade Idea to Set Up for Offseason

[Moranis]

Not near enough value for both Schroder and Richardson.  Richardson and Hernangomez I'd do though.

Not near enough value? We'd get a first for 2 backup players. Imo, it's an easy yes for the C's. I bet the Cavs say no. First-round picks are valuable assets.

1) Schroder gets starter minutes (4th on the team in MPG), and is virtually always in the closing lineup.
2) One of Schroder or Richardson would supplant Okoro in the Cavs starting lineup.
3) Richardson should be a starter here.

This is how I see it.  In addition, if you trade Richardson now you can't use his contract in a trade this summer or next season and he will be valuable then as well. 

a pick around 20 (making it 2 picks in that range) or 2 2nd round picks is just not good value for both Richardson and Schroder. 

[Celtics2021]

I doubt Cleveland gives up a 1st under the circumstances.  Schroder would be a rental, and JR was a salary dump this past summer.  But, if they’ll give up their first, we should do it.

You keep calling Richardson a salary dump, but there is zero evidence the C's viewed him as such (they extended him, with a raise), nor has his play resembled that of a guy who was dumped.  His value wasn't high last summer, but it was greater than "dump", and given his turnaround so far this year, it should have increased relative to July.

[Sophomore]

I doubt Cleveland gives up a 1st under the circumstances.  Schroder would be a rental, and JR was a salary dump this past summer.  But, if they’ll give up their first, we should do it.

You keep calling Richardson a salary dump, but there is zero evidence the C's viewed him as such (they extended him, with a raise), nor has his play resembled that of a guy who was dumped.  His value wasn't high last summer, but it was greater than "dump", and given his turnaround so far this year, it should have increased relative to July.

One of Ime’s mistakes is not playing JRich more. JR has been shooting 41% from 3 and playing very good defense.

Having him under contract for another year at $12 million was a solid decision by Brad. Memphis could use a wing and they have three firsts in 2022. I can see reasons it’s better to keep JR - he might help us win next year if we’re in better position, but a late first for him has some appeal.

[Roy H.]

I doubt Cleveland gives up a 1st under the circumstances.  Schroder would be a rental, and JR was a salary dump this past summer.  But, if they’ll give up their first, we should do it.

You keep calling Richardson a salary dump, but there is zero evidence the C's viewed him as such (they extended him, with a raise), nor has his play resembled that of a guy who was dumped.  His value wasn't high last summer, but it was greater than "dump", and given his turnaround so far this year, it should have increased relative to July.

Dallas considered him a salary dump, and none of the other teams took him on.

Teams don’t trade 1sts for guys like Richardson.   Once upon a time they did, but that’s not really the case anymore.

[todd_days_41]

I kind of don't see it for either team:

~ Cleveland has built a strong team through the draft; they'll be reticent to give up a 1st in this deal;

~ If the Cs are serious about building around the Jays, they need NBA caliber rotation players. Richardson is one of the only ones on our bench;

~ Given the above and BOS' awful record in drafting and / or signing young talent, even if CLE would give up a first, I'd prefer to see them ship someone other than Richardson. Maybe swap in Romeo instead.

I'm not confident the Cs can draft NBA caliber players --  and when they have multiple picks, those picks just take up room warming the Cs bench where we could otherwise have a useful player. So unless they're routing the pick they get into another trade, I'd rather have Richardson (over another Nesmith or Langford or Pritchard or Carson Edwards)....

 

[Vermont Green]

Rubio is an UFA after this season same as Schroeder.  Don't see the point.  You are giving up Richardson who is under contract for next season for a mid-ling draft pick.  So you trade an expiring player who can actually play (Schroder) for a lesser expiring player who cannot even play (Rubio, injured).  What is the point.  Why trade a player that can play?

[footey]

Not near enough value for both Schroder and Richardson.  Richardson and Hernangomez I'd do though.

Not near enough value? We'd get a first for 2 backup players. Imo, it's an easy yes for the C's. I bet the Cavs say no. First-round picks are valuable assets.

1) Schroder gets starter minutes (4th on the team in MPG), and is virtually always in the closing lineup.
2) One of Schroder or Richardson would supplant Okoro in the Cavs starting lineup.
3) Richardson should be a starter here.

This is how I see it.  In addition, if you trade Richardson now you can't use his contract in a trade this summer or next season and he will be valuable then as well. 

a pick around 20 (making it 2 picks in that range) or 2 2nd round picks is just not good value for both Richardson and Schroder.

You're missing the point, which is getting Rubio's Bird Rights.  He is the target in this entire trade. Sham just reported in the Athletic that teams are interested in Rubio's contract:

"The Cavaliers continue to discuss improving their backcourt, with rival teams showing interest in a package around Ricky Rubio’s expiring deal and draft picks."

[Celtics2021]

I doubt Cleveland gives up a 1st under the circumstances.  Schroder would be a rental, and JR was a salary dump this past summer.  But, if they’ll give up their first, we should do it.

You keep calling Richardson a salary dump, but there is zero evidence the C's viewed him as such (they extended him, with a raise), nor has his play resembled that of a guy who was dumped.  His value wasn't high last summer, but it was greater than "dump", and given his turnaround so far this year, it should have increased relative to July.

Dallas considered him a salary dump, and none of the other teams took him on.

Teams don’t trade 1sts for guys like Richardson.   Once upon a time they did, but that’s not really the case anymore.

Dallas got something for him.  Moses Brown isn’t great shakes, but the Mavs valued him enough to keep him on the roster despite his contract being non-guaranteed.  He was arguably equivalent to a 2nd rounder at the time of the trade.  It’s also completely unclear whether Richardson opted in because the Celtics were trading for him (and at least open to) an extension, or because, as you suppose, he was going to have a bad free agency.  To me, the subsequent extension and the fact that the C’s would not have been able to make the deal after free agency started (they needed the expiring Hayward extension to get the deal done) indicates Richardson opted in order to make the trade possible, and not that the Mavs dumped him because he opted in.  Neither of us will ever know.

Anyway, all that aside, I never said Richardson on his own is worth a 1st in today’s market.  I do think he’s worth multiple seconds, and I also think Schröder is worth multiple seconds (with a better argument for protected 1st because his contract makes him likely to fit the budget constraints of more teams across the league and his more unique abilities).  Combined they are certainly worth more than 2 seconds, and I would think worth a 1st that has a very good chance of eventually conveying.

[Celtics2021]

Not near enough value for both Schroder and Richardson.  Richardson and Hernangomez I'd do though.

Not near enough value? We'd get a first for 2 backup players. Imo, it's an easy yes for the C's. I bet the Cavs say no. First-round picks are valuable assets.

1) Schroder gets starter minutes (4th on the team in MPG), and is virtually always in the closing lineup.
2) One of Schroder or Richardson would supplant Okoro in the Cavs starting lineup.
3) Richardson should be a starter here.

This is how I see it.  In addition, if you trade Richardson now you can't use his contract in a trade this summer or next season and he will be valuable then as well. 

a pick around 20 (making it 2 picks in that range) or 2 2nd round picks is just not good value for both Richardson and Schroder.

You're missing the point, which is getting Rubio's Bird Rights.  He is the target in this entire trade. Sham just reported in the Athletic that teams are interested in Rubio's contract:

"The Cavaliers continue to discuss improving their backcourt, with rival teams showing interest in a package around Ricky Rubio’s expiring deal and draft picks."

You’re misinterpreting Shams.  Rubio’s deal being expiring means that teams know the Cavs can match a lot of salary without sending back a long-term contract.  It is not that teams are chomping at the bit to offer more than the mid-level to a guy in his 30s coming off an ACL who likely won’t be available for the start of the season.

[footey]

Not near enough value for both Schroder and Richardson.  Richardson and Hernangomez I'd do though.

Not near enough value? We'd get a first for 2 backup players. Imo, it's an easy yes for the C's. I bet the Cavs say no. First-round picks are valuable assets.

1) Schroder gets starter minutes (4th on the team in MPG), and is virtually always in the closing lineup.
2) One of Schroder or Richardson would supplant Okoro in the Cavs starting lineup.
3) Richardson should be a starter here.

This is how I see it.  In addition, if you trade Richardson now you can't use his contract in a trade this summer or next season and he will be valuable then as well. 

a pick around 20 (making it 2 picks in that range) or 2 2nd round picks is just not good value for both Richardson and Schroder.

You're missing the point, which is getting Rubio's Bird Rights.  He is the target in this entire trade. Sham just reported in the Athletic that teams are interested in Rubio's contract:

"The Cavaliers continue to discuss improving their backcourt, with rival teams showing interest in a package around Ricky Rubio’s expiring deal and draft picks."

You’re misinterpreting Shams.  Rubio’s deal being expiring means that teams know the Cavs can match a lot of salary without sending back a long-term contract.  It is not that teams are chomping at the bit to offer more than the mid-level to a guy in his 30s coming off an ACL who likely won’t be available for the start of the season.

Maybe, but Rubio has value to the Boston Celtics. We don't have a pass first point guard.  Our team stinks because we lack one.  He would be an awesome fit, and would likely re-sign with the Celtics if we offered him a starting position.  Cavs are weak at shooting guard position and need a back up PG this season. They are very motivated to get into the playoffs this season.  Schroder is a much better option for them this season than Rondo, who is pretty done.

[Celtics2021]

Not near enough value for both Schroder and Richardson.  Richardson and Hernangomez I'd do though.

Not near enough value? We'd get a first for 2 backup players. Imo, it's an easy yes for the C's. I bet the Cavs say no. First-round picks are valuable assets.

1) Schroder gets starter minutes (4th on the team in MPG), and is virtually always in the closing lineup.
2) One of Schroder or Richardson would supplant Okoro in the Cavs starting lineup.
3) Richardson should be a starter here.

This is how I see it.  In addition, if you trade Richardson now you can't use his contract in a trade this summer or next season and he will be valuable then as well. 

a pick around 20 (making it 2 picks in that range) or 2 2nd round picks is just not good value for both Richardson and Schroder.

You're missing the point, which is getting Rubio's Bird Rights.  He is the target in this entire trade. Sham just reported in the Athletic that teams are interested in Rubio's contract:

"The Cavaliers continue to discuss improving their backcourt, with rival teams showing interest in a package around Ricky Rubio’s expiring deal and draft picks."

You’re misinterpreting Shams.  Rubio’s deal being expiring means that teams know the Cavs can match a lot of salary without sending back a long-term contract.  It is not that teams are chomping at the bit to offer more than the mid-level to a guy in his 30s coming off an ACL who likely won’t be available for the start of the season.

Maybe, but Rubio has value to the Boston Celtics. We don't have a pass first point guard.  Our team stinks because we lack one.  He would be an awesome fit, and would likely re-sign with the Celtics if we offered him a starting position.  Cavs are weak at shooting guard position and need a back up PG this season. They are very motivated to get into the playoffs this season.  Schroder is a much better option for them this season than Rondo, who is pretty done.

Why are the Celtics offering a starting position to a 32 yo (next opening day) who's coming off an ACL?  Why aren't they offering him that via the MLE?  Almost no one has cap space next year.  Bird rights aren't needed by any team to sign Rubio.

I agree with the rest of what you say.  I think it's a homerun trade for the Cavs.  It's why I think the C's need better draft compensation.

[Roy H.]

Not near enough value for both Schroder and Richardson.  Richardson and Hernangomez I'd do though.

Not near enough value? We'd get a first for 2 backup players. Imo, it's an easy yes for the C's. I bet the Cavs say no. First-round picks are valuable assets.

1) Schroder gets starter minutes (4th on the team in MPG), and is virtually always in the closing lineup.
2) One of Schroder or Richardson would supplant Okoro in the Cavs starting lineup.
3) Richardson should be a starter here.

This is how I see it.  In addition, if you trade Richardson now you can't use his contract in a trade this summer or next season and he will be valuable then as well. 

a pick around 20 (making it 2 picks in that range) or 2 2nd round picks is just not good value for both Richardson and Schroder.

You're missing the point, which is getting Rubio's Bird Rights.  He is the target in this entire trade. Sham just reported in the Athletic that teams are interested in Rubio's contract:

"The Cavaliers continue to discuss improving their backcourt, with rival teams showing interest in a package around Ricky Rubio’s expiring deal and draft picks."

You’re misinterpreting Shams.  Rubio’s deal being expiring means that teams know the Cavs can match a lot of salary without sending back a long-term contract.  It is not that teams are chomping at the bit to offer more than the mid-level to a guy in his 30s coming off an ACL who likely won’t be available for the start of the season.

Maybe, but Rubio has value to the Boston Celtics. We don't have a pass first point guard.  Our team stinks because we lack one.  He would be an awesome fit, and would likely re-sign with the Celtics if we offered him a starting position.  Cavs are weak at shooting guard position and need a back up PG this season. They are very motivated to get into the playoffs this season.  Schroder is a much better option for them this season than Rondo, who is pretty done.

Why are the Celtics offering a starting position to a 32 yo (next opening day) who's coming off an ACL?  Why aren't they offering him that via the MLE?  Almost no one has cap space next year.  Bird rights aren't needed by any team to sign Rubio.

I agree with the rest of what you say.  I think it's a homerun trade for the Cavs.  It's why I think the C's need better draft compensation.

Acquiring his Bird rights has two advantages.  First, it makes it slightly more likely he'd sign here, due to the slight increase in compensation we could give, both in terms of raises and annually.  Also, it would allow us to use the MLE on a second player.

Looking at the various options we have...

1.  Trade Schroder, trade JR
2.  Trade Schroder, keep JR
3.  Keep Schroder, keep JR
4.  Keep Schroder, trade JR

...  my guess is that our best bet in reality is to keep Richardson and to trade Schroder.  However, if we can end up in a situation where were get a 1st rounder and a useful player's Bird Rights by trading both, that's probably our best option.

[nebist]

Good discussion all around. To be clear, this is not a trade that would "excite" me, but it is a trade that I think might make some sense to Brad/front office if they think bigger moves to truly elevate the roster are more likely to be available in the offseason rather than at the trade deadline.

My preferred path forward would be to use anyone outside of Tatum, Brown, Timelord, and Smart and future picks to upgrade our 5th starter/closer spot around those 4 players at the deadline. Harrison Barnes? Jerami Grant? Someone in that talent range.

My second preferred path forward would be to include Smart or Timelord (along with picks, other assets) to target a 3rd star type. Domantas Sabonis? De'Aaron Fox? Someone in that talent range.

If those types of deals do not present themselves at the deadline, that's when I could see this kind of deal being a feasible backup plan to put us in a better position to chase a more impactful deal in the offseason.

Also, I agree with the posters that say Richardson should currently be our 5th starter/closer, but Ime refuses to play him as such, which is mystifying.

[todd_days_41]

When you factor re-signing Rubio it gets more interesting to me. But: I believe Josh Richardson can't be traded until this summer. Fanspo's trade machine states Feb 19th, which is after the trade deadline. Can anyone confirm?

[Celtics2021]

Not near enough value for both Schroder and Richardson.  Richardson and Hernangomez I'd do though.

Not near enough value? We'd get a first for 2 backup players. Imo, it's an easy yes for the C's. I bet the Cavs say no. First-round picks are valuable assets.

1) Schroder gets starter minutes (4th on the team in MPG), and is virtually always in the closing lineup.
2) One of Schroder or Richardson would supplant Okoro in the Cavs starting lineup.
3) Richardson should be a starter here.

This is how I see it.  In addition, if you trade Richardson now you can't use his contract in a trade this summer or next season and he will be valuable then as well. 

a pick around 20 (making it 2 picks in that range) or 2 2nd round picks is just not good value for both Richardson and Schroder.

You're missing the point, which is getting Rubio's Bird Rights.  He is the target in this entire trade. Sham just reported in the Athletic that teams are interested in Rubio's contract:

"The Cavaliers continue to discuss improving their backcourt, with rival teams showing interest in a package around Ricky Rubio’s expiring deal and draft picks."

You’re misinterpreting Shams.  Rubio’s deal being expiring means that teams know the Cavs can match a lot of salary without sending back a long-term contract.  It is not that teams are chomping at the bit to offer more than the mid-level to a guy in his 30s coming off an ACL who likely won’t be available for the start of the season.

Maybe, but Rubio has value to the Boston Celtics. We don't have a pass first point guard.  Our team stinks because we lack one.  He would be an awesome fit, and would likely re-sign with the Celtics if we offered him a starting position.  Cavs are weak at shooting guard position and need a back up PG this season. They are very motivated to get into the playoffs this season.  Schroder is a much better option for them this season than Rondo, who is pretty done.

Why are the Celtics offering a starting position to a 32 yo (next opening day) who's coming off an ACL?  Why aren't they offering him that via the MLE?  Almost no one has cap space next year.  Bird rights aren't needed by any team to sign Rubio.

I agree with the rest of what you say.  I think it's a homerun trade for the Cavs.  It's why I think the C's need better draft compensation.

Acquiring his Bird rights has two advantages.  First, it makes it slightly more likely he'd sign here, due to the slight increase in compensation we could give, both in terms of raises and annually.  Also, it would allow us to use the MLE on a second player.

Looking at the various options we have...

1.  Trade Schroder, trade JR
2.  Trade Schroder, keep JR
3.  Keep Schroder, keep JR
4.  Keep Schroder, trade JR

...  my guess is that our best bet in reality is to keep Richardson and to trade Schroder.  However, if we can end up in a situation where were get a 1st rounder and a useful player's Bird Rights by trading both, that's probably our best option.

Given our bounty of TPE's next offseason, I would say the value of retaining Rubio at a rate above the MLE and using the MLE on someone else is pretty low, because the hard cap will come into play, forcing the team to choose between TPE's and the MLE.  Additionally, the Fournier TPE could be used to sign Rubio for a deal above the MLE via a S&T if he did not wind up on Boston at the deadline.  In other words, if the Celtics actually want Rubio next summer, they'd have multiple angles with which to pursue him.

I do agree with your best bet.  The Celtics seem to like Richardson, he's played well, and he's under contract next year.