Tatum is our downfall, and our salvation.

[Kernewek]

Our dude is number 1 in jacking up shots in the league. Most shots out of anyone.

And that's fine, he's our number 1 after all.

Just wish he was hitting it at ANY rate OTHER than a career lowest %.

It's very fair to say that if he'd produce at last year's clip, we would've had 5+ fewer losses right now, and everything would be different.

Here's his stats so far;



https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01.html

We've also changed his on-ball opportunities quite a bit, which moved away from his strengths:


Obviously he's been shooting much worse, but a good part of the blame lies on the coach for asking him to create in situations that he's not very good at.

Yeah, I believe that.

I reckon there's a correlation between league leading number of shots, and worse shooting% than ever.

Yeah it's just pretty mind-numbing to be a Celtics fan right now: we're preaching patience for our coach to hopefully develop into one that's not outright awful someday, and that's simply not smart team management by any sports club worth their salt.

Given the state of the world the mind-numbing qualities might be a feature, not a bug.

Being .500 out the gate isn't the worst thing it could be.

[pokeKingCurtis]

Our dude is number 1 in jacking up shots in the league. Most shots out of anyone.

And that's fine, he's our number 1 after all.

Just wish he was hitting it at ANY rate OTHER than a career lowest %.

It's very fair to say that if he'd produce at last year's clip, we would've had 5+ fewer losses right now, and everything would be different.

Here's his stats so far;



https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01.html

We've also changed his on-ball opportunities quite a bit, which moved away from his strengths:


Obviously he's been shooting much worse, but a good part of the blame lies on the coach for asking him to create in situations that he's not very good at.

Yeah, I believe that.

I reckon there's a correlation between league leading number of shots, and worse shooting% than ever.

Yeah it's just pretty mind-numbing to be a Celtics fan right now: we're preaching patience for our coach to hopefully develop into one that's not outright awful someday, and that's simply not smart team management by any sports club worth their salt.

Tatum can always iso, Udoka has them playing hard and that's the key

[Celtics4ever]

When the scorer is doing his historically worst job at scoring, you kinda start trying new stuff.

They emphasized this a great deal in the off season and the end of last year.  So he is not trying "new" stuff.    I would contend that it is part of the problem or the cause.  He may be over thinking what to do.   Guys were wanting him to pass more even with multiple 50+ games last year.  Why change his game from that?  He was trending towards superstardom.   Now passing Tatum can look like a good player not a superstar.   No one asked Bernard King to pass it.    The same is truly of many great scorers.

Tatum isn't Ben Simmons, or LeBron with a great innate passing IQ.  He can pass some but it is his nature, I think not.  It is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole, it is not a good fit for his talents.

[LilRip]

I think this pressure to make him a distributor is dumb.   Some guys are scorers plain and simple.   No one ever tried making Kevin McHale a passer.  You need a few guys whose job it is to put it in the hole.

I’m in the same line of thinking. Udoka made it clear in the offseason (and the eye test confirms it too) that he wants Tatum (and Brown) to pass more.

This year, Tatum looks like he’s probing more than attacking. He’s waiting for the double to come so he can make a pass (or a shot). When the defense loads in the paint instead of outright doubling, he settles for a fadeaway mid range.

I haven’t checked the stats but it wouldn’t surprise me if he was taking way more mid range jumpers than last year. He’s been looking like sophomore Tatum.

[Moranis]

Tatum averaged 4.3 apg last year.  He is at 3.4 apg this year.  Tatum is at his best when he has free offensive reign.  He shoots better and that leads to better and more impactful passing.  Tatum is a pure scorer.  He is much more in the Kevin Durant mold than the Lebron James mold.  You can't change that.  And just like Durant got better at passing, Tatum has as well, but you can't force it.  It has to come naturally. 

Just to show these are Tatum's apg numbers 1.6, 2.1, 3.0, 4.3, and now 3.4 so far this year.  This is Durant 2.4, 2.8, 2.8, 2.7, 3.5, 4.6, 5.5 (in the 7 seasons since he has since fluctuated between 4.1 and 5.9 averaging 5.2 the last 7 seasons).

That is what we should expect from Tatum and he was on his way to that under Stevens.  The different philosophy of Udoka hasn't quite meshed with Tatum yet.  Hopefully it does, but forcing Tatum to be something he isn't, is a good way to play losing basketball and for a coach to end up unemployed.  The best coaches gear their coaching to their players, they don't force the players to their style.  That is what the truly great coaches like Spo do, they coach to the talent they have. 

[Rosco917]

I'm talking about chemistry here: The League has figured Jayson out, when they throw a double team at him and force him to either find the open man, of which he finds unappealing and struggles to accomplish regularly. Or he puts the ball on the floor with his head down to locate the nearest off-balance shot with a defenders hand in his face. OR he settles for the step-back three, which he has yet to hit at high percentage. When he manages to turn the corner and he gets downhill into the paint, he's not a great finisher and hates contact.

Unfortunately, the Celtic have been trained to allow him to be "the Man" and Jayson has bought into it.

Now true... as we've seen, there are times when he gets hot and scores very well. He is a fine talent, but the opposing teams are willing to settle for this outburst, because the remainder of the team stands around watching, and are forced to deal with the slow, predictable pace he creates.

Jaylen Brown on the other hand, suffers in the slowdown game while watching Jayson. He's also not a willing passer...BUT he thrives in a fast paced game in the open court finding seams in the defense and gets to the rim easily. Toss in his high percentage from the 3 point land and he is a valuable weapon, and the reason the duo sometimes are enticing together. Even if they seldom play together.

The J's when on the floor together, are at odds with each other in their pace of play. But, with Jaylen injured, the Celtics with Jayson alone... are noting more than a 500 team.

I for one would like to see how this team responds with JT sitting for a few games and JB being the main focus on offense. Pace and excitement will pick-up, followed by crisper team passing, and a few wins against some top teams.

It's true...Tatum is our downfall, and our salvation. The good news is he's only 23. 

[Celtics4ever]

A real PG and a cutting offense would help a lot then surrounding the Jays with shooters.   This stand in the corner crap must be disengaging as a player, but we all know it is the NBA.   Grant to his credit has embraced that shot.

[Goldstar88]

Not worried about Jayson Tatum..


Keith Smith: Jayson Tatum on his shooting slump: “I haven’t doubted myself. Not once. Neither have my teammates…and neither have the opponents. They’re still guarding me. I just need to keep shooting. It’ll come.”  – via Twitter KeithSmithNBA

[LilRip]

I'm talking about chemistry here: The League has figured Jayson out, when they throw a double team at him and force him to either find the open man, of which he finds unappealing and struggles to accomplish regularly. Or he puts the ball on the floor with his head down to locate the nearest off-balance shot with a defenders hand in his face. OR he settles for the step-back three, which he has yet to hit at high percentage. When he manages to turn the corner and he gets downhill into the paint, he's not a great finisher and hates contact.

Unfortunately, the Celtic have been trained to allow him to be "the Man" and Jayson has bought into it.

Now true... as we've seen, there are times when he gets hot and scores very well. He is a fine talent, but the opposing teams are willing to settle for this outburst, because the remainder of the team stands around watching, and are forced to deal with the slow, predictable pace he creates.

Jaylen Brown on the other hand, suffers in the slowdown game while watching Jayson. He's also not a willing passer...BUT he thrives in a fast paced game in the open court finding seams in the defense and gets to the rim easily. Toss in his high percentage from the 3 point land and he is a valuable weapon, and the reason the duo sometimes are enticing together. Even if they seldom play together.

The J's when on the floor together, are at odds with each other in their pace of play. But, with Jaylen injured, the Celtics with Jayson alone... are noting more than a 500 team.

I for one would like to see how this team responds with JT sitting for a few games and JB being the main focus on offense. Pace and excitement will pick-up, followed by crisper team passing, and a few wins against some top teams.

It's true...Tatum is our downfall, and our salvation. The good news is he's only 23.

Not sure why this would happen. And it’s not like JB is a playmaker either. JB pushes the pace but if teams doubled him regularly the way they did Tatum, I could see him being a turnover prone guy (especially with his loose handle, albeit much improved vs his younger years).

The best way to use JB is to use him as a scorer. Same with JT. Unfortunately (at least imo) Udoka is force feeding playmaking duties to expand Tatum’s game, which I see as a secondary strength of his rather than a primary one. As others have stated, he’s closer to KD than he is Lebron.

As great as KD is, he needed Russ and Steph and now Kyrie/Harden beside him. Sure Russ is a ball hog but it let KD focus on scoring while Westbrook did everything else (granted in a turnovery manner). I think we need Schroder to step up in a bigger role (which he has in recent games) and I hope this continues even when JB gets back. Schroder is a much more natural ball handler and passer than Smart (who often seems to go for home run plays on offense).

[td450]

I'm talking about chemistry here: The League has figured Jayson out, when they throw a double team at him and force him to either find the open man, of which he finds unappealing and struggles to accomplish regularly. Or he puts the ball on the floor with his head down to locate the nearest off-balance shot with a defenders hand in his face. OR he settles for the step-back three, which he has yet to hit at high percentage. When he manages to turn the corner and he gets downhill into the paint, he's not a great finisher and hates contact.

Unfortunately, the Celtic have been trained to allow him to be "the Man" and Jayson has bought into it.

Now true... as we've seen, there are times when he gets hot and scores very well. He is a fine talent, but the opposing teams are willing to settle for this outburst, because the remainder of the team stands around watching, and are forced to deal with the slow, predictable pace he creates.

Jaylen Brown on the other hand, suffers in the slowdown game while watching Jayson. He's also not a willing passer...BUT he thrives in a fast paced game in the open court finding seams in the defense and gets to the rim easily. Toss in his high percentage from the 3 point land and he is a valuable weapon, and the reason the duo sometimes are enticing together. Even if they seldom play together.

The J's when on the floor together, are at odds with each other in their pace of play. But, with Jaylen injured, the Celtics with Jayson alone... are noting more than a 500 team.

I for one would like to see how this team responds with JT sitting for a few games and JB being the main focus on offense. Pace and excitement will pick-up, followed by crisper team passing, and a few wins against some top teams.

It's true...Tatum is our downfall, and our salvation. The good news is he's only 23.

Brown rarely runs the offense. The team should be moving Tatum towards a playing style similar to Brown, where he gets the ball off an action instead of standing still and squaring up a defender.

Jaylen's job is to attack, make the read and choose the best option. He doesn't hold the ball. If defenses loaded up enough to make his shot options tougher and he still didn't pass, he'd be making a mistake, but right now, he's still finishing plays more efficiently than his other options. He has done a good job of getting Rob Williams the ball when he rolls to the rim. That's the only higher efficiency option than him shooting it. He's making the right reads.

Tatum is initiating offense, and he's not making defenses pay for overloading on him.

[Celtics4ever]

Tatum almost always takes a harder shot than he has too.   It is clear he is worried more about hotdogging and the high light than making a safe solid basketball play sometimes.    I know it get's boring sometimes and you want the challenge, Larry once played a game left handed but when it's doing it to the point of hurting your game it is time to stop.

here is one example, it is an unnecessary long range shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZrvf35kGus

an air ball miss with a fancy move

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG75UFr39lw

A lot of these were more balanced shots with less movement

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkZhh9eY_Fk

Him shooting in practive w/o the movement

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysGsQcglDPU


Please note the last one is this September so scratch out all the weight lifting ruined his shot crap.