Shams: Celtics Interested In Simmons

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Or Philly is a toxic work environment for him and that is what he is struggling with and when he gets out of the toxic environment those issues and concerns are alleviated.  We see this all of the time with employees that are sexually harassed and can't function well in the environment they were in, whereas they get transferred or the harasser gets terminated and their outlook improves significantly (and I'm not comparing a person that was sexually harassed with Simmons just showing how your actual environment can significantly contribute to your mental well being).  So Simmons very well might have mental health issues associated with being with the Sixers that once he is no longer on the Sixers alleviate themselves.

What have the Sixers done to make the environment "toxic" for Simmons and not toxic for any other players?  I agree with the that the environment can be an issue in a general sense but I am not sure I see it here.  I think the fundamental issue for Simmons is dealing with pressure.  Again, the FT example.  That kind of singular action by him is where he has the most trouble.

well publicly selling your player out and then not defending him as the media crushes him for months is not exactly creating a warm and fuzzy place to play.

Toxic? I guess words don't mean anything any more. He's a top tier professional basketball player. He performed very badly,and that included behavior which most observers interpreted as giving up. There are tens of thousands of other guys fighting for these spots. A coach and an elite player offered unusually candid but not particularly severe comments.

That may or may not have been wise strategically, but is wasn't a lie and it wasn't extreme, except for the expectation that any criticism remain in-house. We don't know how badly Simmons behaved behind the scenes. But you are calling this toxic.

It is impossible to make these jobs safe spaces for emotionally fragile people. Top tier sports is a Squid Game like tournament of mental toughness. The performance pressure and the intense public scrutiny are impossible to avoid. That's a big part of why someone can command north of $30M to play a game.

The Celtics would be gambling any chance at a title for the foreseeable future on the hope that Simmons will shed his persistent fragility and disingenuousness. Who wants to root for that? I don't

I'm not the one that called him a liar and a faker.  You are.  I was merely pointing out that quite often people have mental health issues because of their environment and when their environment changes the mental health issues go away.  It doesn't mean they were lying about those mental health issues.

So you are taking it in good faith that after demanding a trade, saying he didn’t want to play with Embid, saying he wanted to be the centerpiece of an offense, saying he preferred to play with one of the three California teams, said his back hurt, had rich paul confirm with the players association that the 76ers could withhold his money , THEN says he has mental health problems as 7th reason for not playing. You buying that? Really?

Celticsclay, nothing you are saying is wrong, it can all be true and the fact that Simmons is not 100% mentally fit can also be true.  I am not going as far as Moranis and attributing it to the "toxic" environment (although that doesn't mean the environment didn't have some contribution), I think Simmons really does have some issues.  His behavior has been erratic and irrational.  Isn't that a symptom of some underlying mental health issue in and of itself?

Im not saying he doesn’t have some mental health issues, but the mentally unable to play part that has twice conveniently been announced when fines and paychecks were being lost it makes it pretty clear he wants his money without playing. Rich paul was actually dumb enough to say the 76ers should treat simmons like John wall. Just give him his whole salary so he can sit home. The whole thing is making a mockery of mental health.

Yeah I don't think the average fans in Boston, or NY or LA for that matter are going to be super sympathetic to Ben's mental health issues, whatever they may be.  IE they aren't going to be easier on him than Philly fans have been.  He will be on an even shorter leash with the next team's fans and front office.  I disagree big time that if someone has mental health issues, if you just pull them out of the situation they are in, or the job they are in that it all magically improves.  That isn't how it works.

As someone that has dep/anxiety issues myself I know that I have hoped / wished that it would improve just through a change of scenery, but unfortunately changing jobs, changing living locations didn't do that for me, and doesn't do it for most people.  It follows you around until you can try to deal with it, and sometimes no matter what you do it doesn't get better. 

Blaming all of this on the 'toxicity' of the 76'ers organization at this point is insane.  Simmons got some mild criticism after last years playoffs, and then he decided that he wasn't going to try to address those criticisms head on and get better as a player.  He decided that he would rather just switch teams.  But wait, he signed a 177 million dollar contract that you can't always just 'get out of' because you want to.  It feels like Ben thinks he is at a higher level as a player than he actually is.  He and his agent thought if they just announced that he wanted a trade that dozens of teams would be beating down the 76ers door to trade for him.  After last years playoffs, and Ben just not improving year after year, that wasn't the case.  The rest of the NBA wasn't lining up to sign him because he just isn't worth his contract.  It was a huge fundamental / tactical error by Simmons and his agent.   

[nickagneta]

Could you argue Noel, Okafor, Wroten, MCW, etc. all experienced a level of toxic work environment that impacted their careers and earnings?

I can tell you with absolute certainty, with inside knowledge, that Nerlens issues were self inflicted and had nothing to do with the Philadelphia franchise

[tenn_smoothie]

I don't want Simmons on this team, even if the price was only a bag of Doritos. This is a professional basketball player who is scared to shoot the ball. And look at how much trouble he creates if he's unhappy. No thank you.

Gotta agree.

At first look, Simmons might be a big plus for the Celtics. Very good defender and facilitator with the ball, which we need more of.
Problem is, the guy has become a headcase, on the court and now off, as well.
If you think Jeff Green faded under the aura of the 17 banners over his head, imagine Simmons.

[Ed Monix]

Could you argue Noel, Okafor, Wroten, MCW, etc. all experienced a level of toxic work environment that impacted their careers and earnings?

I can tell you with absolute certainty, with inside knowledge, that Nerlens issues were self inflicted and had nothing to do with the Philadelphia franchise

Via 76ers Reddit:

Posted this in another thread, but funny story In 2016 I worked for a company who did detailing work for the Sixers players cars. I got Nerlen’s black Range Rover to detail. There was at least a ziplock bag full of weed crumbs under the drivers seat and all over the floor. he also had a special laminated index card sized piece of paper with step by step instructions on what to do, and who to call if stopped by police. Number one on the list was, “inform the officer you play for the 76ers” LOL. edit:guess I was wrong “inform you are a 76ers player” is number 3 on the list.

[Neurotic Guy]

Could you argue Noel, Okafor, Wroten, MCW, etc. all experienced a level of toxic work environment that impacted their careers and earnings?

I can tell you with absolute certainty, with inside knowledge, that Nerlens issues were self inflicted and had nothing to do with the Philadelphia franchise

Via 76ers Reddit:

Posted this in another thread, but funny story In 2016 I worked for a company who did detailing work for the Sixers players cars. I got Nerlen’s black Range Rover to detail. There was at least a ziplock bag full of weed crumbs under the drivers seat and all over the floor. he also had a special laminated index card sized piece of paper with step by step instructions on what to do, and who to call if stopped by police. Number one on the list was, “inform the officer you play for the 76ers” LOL. edit:guess I was wrong “inform you are a 76ers player” is number 3 on the list.

I assume there is a lot more to the “self-inflicted” than evidence that he smoked pot.  The card isn’t significant- seems like good advice in a stressful moment for a 22 year old young man.

[nickagneta]

Could you argue Noel, Okafor, Wroten, MCW, etc. all experienced a level of toxic work environment that impacted their careers and earnings?

I can tell you with absolute certainty, with inside knowledge, that Nerlens issues were self inflicted and had nothing to do with the Philadelphia franchise

Via 76ers Reddit:

Posted this in another thread, but funny story In 2016 I worked for a company who did detailing work for the Sixers players cars. I got Nerlen’s black Range Rover to detail. There was at least a ziplock bag full of weed crumbs under the drivers seat and all over the floor. he also had a special laminated index card sized piece of paper with step by step instructions on what to do, and who to call if stopped by police. Number one on the list was, “inform the officer you play for the 76ers” LOL. edit:guess I was wrong “inform you are a 76ers player” is number 3 on the list.

Yeah, he smoked. My guess is over 60% of NBA players do. Big deal. And, if anything that shows, a self inflicted issue not a toxic workplace issue.

I won't go into details, but the self inflicted part had almost everything to do with the people he surrounded himself with and his maturity level.

Nerlens is a good kid. Always has been. Comes from a good family. But he has also always been a follower, not a leader, and the people he followed until he got to OKC were complete scum.

[td450]

Or Philly is a toxic work environment for him and that is what he is struggling with and when he gets out of the toxic environment those issues and concerns are alleviated.  We see this all of the time with employees that are sexually harassed and can't function well in the environment they were in, whereas they get transferred or the harasser gets terminated and their outlook improves significantly (and I'm not comparing a person that was sexually harassed with Simmons just showing how your actual environment can significantly contribute to your mental well being).  So Simmons very well might have mental health issues associated with being with the Sixers that once he is no longer on the Sixers alleviate themselves.

What have the Sixers done to make the environment "toxic" for Simmons and not toxic for any other players?  I agree with the that the environment can be an issue in a general sense but I am not sure I see it here.  I think the fundamental issue for Simmons is dealing with pressure.  Again, the FT example.  That kind of singular action by him is where he has the most trouble.

well publicly selling your player out and then not defending him as the media crushes him for months is not exactly creating a warm and fuzzy place to play.

Toxic? I guess words don't mean anything any more. He's a top tier professional basketball player. He performed very badly,and that included behavior which most observers interpreted as giving up. There are tens of thousands of other guys fighting for these spots. A coach and an elite player offered unusually candid but not particularly severe comments.

That may or may not have been wise strategically, but is wasn't a lie and it wasn't extreme, except for the expectation that any criticism remain in-house. We don't know how badly Simmons behaved behind the scenes. But you are calling this toxic.

It is impossible to make these jobs safe spaces for emotionally fragile people. Top tier sports is a Squid Game like tournament of mental toughness. The performance pressure and the intense public scrutiny are impossible to avoid. That's a big part of why someone can command north of $30M to play a game.

The Celtics would be gambling any chance at a title for the foreseeable future on the hope that Simmons will shed his persistent fragility and disingenuousness. Who wants to root for that? I don't

I'm not the one that called him a liar and a faker.  You are.  I was merely pointing out that quite often people have mental health issues because of their environment and when their environment changes the mental health issues go away.  It doesn't mean they were lying about those mental health issues.

What you did do was argue that:

1. His mental health issues could be legitimate
2. His agent is signaling that they will go away when he changes teams

What sincere person would make an advance claim like that? There is only one way that works, and that is to make a case that the 76ers truly present a uniquely stressful environment in the NBA. Nobody has backed that up with anything.

The issues you cited when you claimed a "toxic" environment are not uniquely stressful. They happen all the time. There have been statements by Udoka and Smart this year that were of the same class of "toxicity" concerning Jaylen Brown. His response was I have to do better, and he goes out and does better.

A player that reacts to criticism by claiming it is causing a mental health event can't fix anything by changing teams. If there is something darker going on here with the 76ers, he should declare what it is at some level, or go to the league at least.

The reality is that the NBA is an environment that a majority of people couldn't handle emotionally. That doesn't make it toxic or unfair.

[nickagneta]

I have social anxiety issues, but they are under control now and have been for a while through therapy and medication.

If Simmons issues are due to the anxiety if returning to an environment where he needs to face certain people, I can understand that.

But....

Those anxiety issues will not magically disappear right away, even if he changes teams. That's not how the crippling effects of anxiety work, especially if he isn't addressing the issue with some combination of therapy and medication.

That he is healthy enough to go to the Philly facilities and put in some practice work with some people there, tells me a bunch of this might be performance anxiety and not social anxiety. And again, he would still need to perform wherever he was traded to, so that won't be some magical panacea to getting back onto the court.

If Simmons is traded and immediately is playing, I am calling bunk on his mental illness. Anxiety that causes you to not be able to work doesn't disappear immediately just from changing workplaces. That simply is not the way any mental illness works. You don't just, coining a popular stigmatic phrase associated with mental illness, "snap out of it".

[Ed Monix]

Could you argue Noel, Okafor, Wroten, MCW, etc. all experienced a level of toxic work environment that impacted their careers and earnings?

I can tell you with absolute certainty, with inside knowledge, that Nerlens issues were self inflicted and had nothing to do with the Philadelphia franchise

Via 76ers Reddit:

Posted this in another thread, but funny story In 2016 I worked for a company who did detailing work for the Sixers players cars. I got Nerlen’s black Range Rover to detail. There was at least a ziplock bag full of weed crumbs under the drivers seat and all over the floor. he also had a special laminated index card sized piece of paper with step by step instructions on what to do, and who to call if stopped by police. Number one on the list was, “inform the officer you play for the 76ers” LOL. edit:guess I was wrong “inform you are a 76ers player” is number 3 on the list.

Yeah, he smoked. My guess is over 60% of NBA players do. Big deal. And, if anything that shows, a self inflicted issue not a toxic workplace issue.

I won't go into details, but the self inflicted part had almost everything to do with the people he surrounded himself with and his maturity level.

Nerlens is a good kid. Always has been. Comes from a good family. But he has also always been a follower, not a leader, and the people he followed until he got to OKC were complete scum.

Sorry, I thought I elaborated on the post.

No, what I was trying to get at, is Nerlens Noel was obviously very immature. Yes, it’s common to smoke weed, but given he most likely knew his car was being cleaned, why would you casually leave incriminating evidence everywhere?

I like others blame ‘The Process’ for not providing mentors and the right structured environment for their young talent. The perfect example is Rob Williams. If he’s in the same situation as Noel, how would he turn out?

[Moranis]

I have social anxiety issues, but they are under control now and have been for a while through therapy and medication.

If Simmons issues are due to the anxiety if returning to an environment where he needs to face certain people, I can understand that.

But....

Those anxiety issues will not magically disappear right away, even if he changes teams. That's not how the crippling effects of anxiety work, especially if he isn't addressing the issue with some combination of therapy and medication.

That he is healthy enough to go to the Philly facilities and put in some practice work with some people there, tells me a bunch of this might be performance anxiety and not social anxiety. And again, he would still need to perform wherever he was traded to, so that won't be some magical panacea to getting back onto the court.

If Simmons is traded and immediately is playing, I am calling bunk on his mental illness. Anxiety that causes you to not be able to work doesn't disappear immediately just from changing workplaces. That simply is not the way any mental illness works. You don't just, coining a popular stigmatic phrase associated with mental illness, "snap out of it".

and yet we pretty consistently see people who are physically, mentally, or sexually harassed get significantly better and function much better when they (or their abuser) are removed from the environment.  I have no idea what has happened between Simmons and the Sixers, but it isn't a crazy thought to think that if the Sixers are causing or significantly contributing to his issues that when he is no longer on the Sixers a lot of his issues will alleviate.  That doesn't mean he will be 100%, but it might mean he can actually play.  I also have no idea if he is just making this up, but he is apparently getting help from mental health professionals from the player's association and now the Sixers themselves.  Those doctors are presumably in a position to diagnose and treat him. 

[Bobshot]

I don't know what's going on mentally with Simmons, but with Schroder's offensive talent and success lately, perhaps a Jaylen Brown for Simmons trade might make sense. Simmons brings a unique set of skills to the court away from the usual 3P perimeter routine. They would improve defensively and in the paint with him, as well as being a strong PG and distributor.  I see Jaylen and Tatum as pretty much the same player.

[td450]

I have social anxiety issues, but they are under control now and have been for a while through therapy and medication.

If Simmons issues are due to the anxiety if returning to an environment where he needs to face certain people, I can understand that.

But....

Those anxiety issues will not magically disappear right away, even if he changes teams. That's not how the crippling effects of anxiety work, especially if he isn't addressing the issue with some combination of therapy and medication.

That he is healthy enough to go to the Philly facilities and put in some practice work with some people there, tells me a bunch of this might be performance anxiety and not social anxiety. And again, he would still need to perform wherever he was traded to, so that won't be some magical panacea to getting back onto the court.

If Simmons is traded and immediately is playing, I am calling bunk on his mental illness. Anxiety that causes you to not be able to work doesn't disappear immediately just from changing workplaces. That simply is not the way any mental illness works. You don't just, coining a popular stigmatic phrase associated with mental illness, "snap out of it".

and yet we pretty consistently see people who are physically, mentally, or sexually harassed get significantly better and function much better when they (or their abuser) are removed from the environment.  I have no idea what has happened between Simmons and the Sixers, but it isn't a crazy thought to think that if the Sixers are causing or significantly contributing to his issues that when he is no longer on the Sixers a lot of his issues will alleviate.  That doesn't mean he will be 100%, but it might mean he can actually play.  I also have no idea if he is just making this up, but he is apparently getting help from mental health professionals from the player's association and now the Sixers themselves.  Those doctors are presumably in a position to diagnose and treat him.

I'll try one more time, then give up.

What you are arguing is only valid if what the 76ers are doing is uniquely "toxic" within the NBA. And, if that's true, the behavior of none of the parties appears to make any sense.

Are any of his teammates supporting the notion of a toxic environment on the 76ers?

Doc has been accused of being an old school values coach. I've never heard of him described as a toxic guy. He's been called a players coach. He coached here, and we know him. He's an ethical guy.

Does the team act like its vulnerable to this? In this environment such a charge could be trouble.

Does the Simmons camp act like they have anything tangible on the team?

He may feel unsettled by the team. It may feel better for a little while to go somewhere else. But it won't mean he's OK or won't fail as soon as the normal stuff starts to add up again.



 

[Ogaju]

I don't know what's going on mentally with Simmons, but with Schroder's offensive talent and success lately, perhaps a Jaylen Brown for Simmons trade might make sense. Simmons brings a unique set of skills to the court away from the usual 3P perimeter routine. They would improve defensively and in the paint with him, as well as being a strong PG and distributor.  I see Jaylen and Tatum as pretty much the same player.

You trade Brown to Sixers and they probably win a championship.

[Phantom255x]

My issue with the whole Simmons thing is that, it doesn't really seem like he's hiding the fact that he really wants to get paid and also avoid the Sixers organization as much as possible even though he's a contracted member there.

I want to be clear, this isn't me stating as a fact that Simmons doesn't have any mental health problems, and I'm happy he's seeking out help.

But like, it does seem a bit convenient that every time the Sixers do something like fine him, you then hear from Simmons camp and Rich Paul the "updates" that you never hear when the Sixers weren't fining him. The kind of updates that allow them to not get fined when Simmons misses a game or something else. And it's happened multiple times over the past month.

The whole thing looks like a mess from the outside but honestly I don't see any way in hell Simmons can salvage anything with PHI at this point. He's probably the most hated athlete there right now. Even his teammates are taking the high road when doing interviews but at the same time, you hear some of their players quoted saying they are "having fun" and "playing together" and I think those are also subtle shots at Simmons.

[celticsclay]

My issue with the whole Simmons thing is that, it doesn't really seem like he's hiding the fact that he really wants to get paid and also avoid the Sixers organization as much as possible even though he's a contracted member there.

I want to be clear, this isn't me stating as a fact that Simmons doesn't have any mental health problems, and I'm happy he's seeking out help.

But like, it does seem a bit convenient that every time the Sixers do something like fine him, you then hear from Simmons camp and Rich Paul the "updates" that you never hear when the Sixers weren't fining him. The kind of updates that allow them to not get fined when Simmons misses a game or something else. And it's happened multiple times over the past month.

The whole thing looks like a mess from the outside but honestly I don't see any way in hell Simmons can salvage anything with PHI at this point. He's probably the most hated athlete there right now. Even his teammates are taking the high road when doing interviews but at the same time, you hear some of their players quoted saying they are "having fun" and "playing together" and I think those are also subtle shots at Simmons.

Yeah I really don’t think anyone should be on the side of what simmons and paul are doing here. It is really making a mockery of mental health issues and also very bad for the league.