Tatum is such a weak a** complainer

[Celtics2021]

Actually, I am curious to see if there is any stats on the “and 1” opportunity driving to the basket, among those star players.

There's no stats broken down about and-1s on drives that I can find.  I do have them for "isolation" plays.  Tatum got and-1s on 1.0% of such plays last year.  That's not very good for high-isolation wings -- KD got them on 4.3% of such plays, LeBron 3.6%, Giannis 3.2%.  DeRozan earned them on a whopping 7% of such plays.  But Kawhi drew them the same 1.0% of the time as Tatum, so you can be an MVP-calibre player and not be great at that skill, which makes sense, because it's such a low-frequency event for even the best, with the exception of DeRozan.  There could be some noise there -- maybe he's actually very good at finishing but isn't getting the calls others do, and the refs ignore and-1's for him that they give to others.

So yeah, Tatum probably could and should be better at it, but that would mean it becomes something that happens maybe once a game instead of once every three games, and has a very, very marginal impact on winning.  It's probably better for him to not try to argue for that extra and 1 a game and instead focus on staying involved with the play, because he probably draws T's at nearly the same rate as and-1s, so it's not working for him.

All that said, I thought the refs were garbage in the 4th quarter last night, and my wife T'd me up too.

[Vermont Green]

Saw an interesting line about Tatum that I think may have hit it on the head regarding how Tatum plays:

Tatum has a lot of Kobe in him without having enough of Kobe in him.

Not enough Kobe is better than too much Kobe.

I think this is the root of the problem that some people are having with Tatum.  They want to see a guy like Kobe, who gets in people's faces, even Paul Pierce was fiery in that way.  Many other great players as well, but not all great players are that way.  Look at Kawhi Leonard, Tim Duncan, and others just are not that way but still win championships.

Tatum is 23.  Kobe at 23 or Michael Jordan at 23 were more intense than Tatum but not necessarily better leaders.  Leadership is a skill that has to develop just like all other basketball skills.  Every skill will develop on different trajectory for different players.  Tatum is ahead of say Kobe and Jordan in some areas, behind in others.

I remain all in on Tatum.  I don't like the complaining and sulking either but that can be fixed.

[Indocelts]

Actually, I am curious to see if there is any stats on the “and 1” opportunity driving to the basket, among those star players.

There's no stats broken down about and-1s on drives that I can find.  I do have them for "isolation" plays.  Tatum got and-1s on 1.0% of such plays last year.  That's not very good for high-isolation wings -- KD got them on 4.3% of such plays, LeBron 3.6%, Giannis 3.2%.  DeRozan earned them on a whopping 7% of such plays.  But Kawhi drew them the same 1.0% of the time as Tatum, so you can be an MVP-calibre player and not be great at that skill, which makes sense, because it's such a low-frequency event for even the best, with the exception of DeRozan.  There could be some noise there -- maybe he's actually very good at finishing but isn't getting the calls others do, and the refs ignore and-1's for him that they give to others.

So yeah, Tatum probably could and should be better at it, but that would mean it becomes something that happens maybe once a game instead of once every three games, and has a very, very marginal impact on winning.  It's probably better for him to not try to argue for that extra and 1 a game and instead focus on staying involved with the play, because he probably draws T's at nearly the same rate as and-1s, so it's not working for him.

All that said, I thought the refs were garbage in the 4th quarter last night, and my wife T'd me up too.

Thanks for the info, and TP for you. 👍

[Rosco917]

Tatum imitates what he see's the superstars before him doing. He watches the more established vets working the refs and he thinks Hey, that's what I need to do more of.

He plays to, and then anticipates the coming contact before he even makes his move, rather than aggressively playing threw the contact and simply putting the ball in the hole. Perhaps, in the eyes of the refs young Jason is a wanna-be pain in the butt. He needs to make his bones before he earns the right to play and ref at the same time like the big names.

I know...he says all the right things. He says all the things we like to hear. I just hope Jayson isn't more concerned with his brand than winning a ring for the fans and the organization. 

[Ogaju]

last year Tatum hit shots from 0-3 feet at 73.5%.  As a comparison, Brown has never been higher than 70.3% in any season in his career.  James Harden, regarded as one of the best scorers and finishers, has hit 70% just once in his career and he was still playing for the Thunder then.  Now 73.5% is Lebron's career average, but he didn't higher than than until his 7th year in the league. 

There are so many takes like this with Tatum that just aren't borne in reality.  Enjoy Tatum, players like him don't come around very often.

Yep, it's absurd. Firing off at the hip without even looking to see whether or not what was being said was accurate bothers me.

Cite your stats the truth is the guy misses a lot of gimmies at important times in the games. Roll out more stats that don’t impact winning.

If you don't think a guy that hits a higher percentage of shots at the rim then someone like James Harden doesn't impact winning, then I don't know what to tell you. 

Every single season of his career in the regular season (and the playoffs before Brooklyn), the team is SIGNIFICANTLY better when Tatum is on the floor then when he is on the bench.  Both in full games he misses and just within the games he plays.  Tatum's significance to winning basketball games for the Celtics is unmatched during his entire tenure.  There is no other player even close to Tatum's importance when it comes to winning.

So I'll say again.  Enjoy Tatum, players like him don't come around very often.

Tatum does impact winning, of course he does. I did not mean to suggest he doesn’t. What I typed is those crucial plays that he misses at the rim do not impact winning in a positive way.

Weird take. Missing close shots at the basket at crucial times affects winning in a negative way if taken by any player in the league, not just Tatum.

Do people think only Tatum misses crucial shots at the rim. Brown and Schroder both missed gimmes that cost the team the win against the Knicks, for example.

weird take by you since you basically echoed my take. I posted that the misses at the rim do not impact winning in a positive way. You typed that the misses impact winning in a negative way.  Same difference.

Clearly you missed the point and concentrated on the rewording.

The point is anyone who misses those shots hurts the team's chances of winning, not just Tatum. That's why it a weird point to act like it's just a Tatum thing.

Oops, reworded it again. You're probably going to miss the point....again.

No you miss the point.  It is weird that you don’t even realize that. Really weird take coming from you, too bad you don’t even realize it.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Tatum is a massive complainer, and it's always bothered me. All players who are like that bother me.

[No Nickname]

I love Tatum, it is clear the refs do not.   He is whiny guy.  I think this behavior does not endear him with the refs.

I just wish he would take the easy shot.   I mean how many layups does a guy have to miss due to over complicating and adding additional and unnecessary movement to his shot.  Quit show boating and put the ball in the hole.   People would rather see a made shot than a fancy missed one!

Thank you for stating what I (in an emotional post) could not.  Well said.

[tonydelk]

I love Tatum, it is clear the refs do not.   He is whiny guy.  I think this behavior does not endear him with the refs.

I just wish he would take the easy shot.   I mean how many layups does a guy have to miss due to over complicating and adding additional and unnecessary movement to his shot.  Quit show boating and put the ball in the hole.   People would rather see a made shot than a fancy missed one!

Thank you for stating what I (in an emotional post) could not.  Well said.

I think this goes back to Tatum not playing through contact.  He's stronger this year.  Use it and go through guys not around them.  Then he will get the call because he wasn't avoiding contact.  They will not call a foul for a guy who is trying to avoid the hit.

[Roy H.]

Tatum is a massive complainer, and it's always bothered me. All players who are like that bother me.

I feel the same, but also recognize that the last great Celtic prior to Tatum was Paul Pierce.  He was a huge whiner, too.  We take the bad with the great.

[tenn_smoothie]

Tatum is a massive complainer, and it's always bothered me. All players who are like that bother me.

I feel the same, but also recognize that the last great Celtic prior to Tatum was Paul Pierce.  He was a huge whiner, too.  We take the bad with the great.

The last great Celtic was Kevin Garnett. Without him, Pierce never matures mentally and never wins anything.

I don't care so much about Tatum's leadership qualities or lack thereof.
If it's not in him, you can't twist him into somebody he is not. Let him play.
What does bother me is his lack of mental toughness and lack of competitiveness a lot of the time.
Sure, he has big games and wins games for his team with his scoring, but if he is not scoring, he is not locked in mentally.

[No Nickname]

Point blank layups, missed.  Again and again.

And complaining again and again that he got fouled.

Jaylen needs to teach Tatum how to finish.

[seancally]

Tatum is a massive complainer, and it's always bothered me. All players who are like that bother me.

I feel the same, but also recognize that the last great Celtic prior to Tatum was Paul Pierce.  He was a huge whiner, too.  We take the bad with the great.

The last great Celtic was Kevin Garnett. Without him, Pierce never matures mentally and never wins anything.

I don't care so much about Tatum's leadership qualities or lack thereof.
If it's not in him, you can't twist him into somebody he is not. Let him play.
What does bother me is his lack of mental toughness and lack of competitiveness a lot of the time.
Sure, he has big games and wins games for his team with his scoring, but if he is not scoring, he is not locked in mentally.

I hated the outcome and it was an infuriating game, but I dunno about all that. Tatum had a career high in rebounds and had several big defensive plays. Had 2 blocks on Harrell late and shouldn’t have been called a foul for it.

[Greenblood35]

Regardless of the complaining, I just don't see Tatum as the guy. I think Simmons and Ryan summed it up best about him the other day. He has so much skill, but doesn't "get it", and will he ever put it all together. He's only 23 but he's been in the league for 5 years. I don't see it. He's not a great shooter, his iso game is below average even though he thinks its his bread and butter. For every 40+ game he has, he shoots 5 for 25, he complains non-stop, and he just looks slow and clunky every time he drives to the basket. Beal feels like he can get where he wants to go whenever he wants. I never have any confidence that Tatum can beat his man off the dribble. I've also never seen a player miss so many point plank layups.

If I had to make a choice between trading Brown or Tatum, I'm definitely trading Tatum. If I'm Brad, I look long and hard about trading Tatum this season. He still has great value around the league. If we can find someone that pairs better with Brown, or a ridiculous package of young players and picks I pull the trigger. This team is going nowhere and Tatum is not the man. He will never reach Pierce levels let alone become a top 5 player. Time to break up this team, and Tatum is the player to trade.

[Ogaju]

Regardless of the complaining, I just don't see Tatum as the guy. I think Simmons and Ryan summed it up best about him the other day. He has so much skill, but doesn't "get it", and will he ever put it all together. He's only 23 but he's been in the league for 5 years. I don't see it. He's not a great shooter, his iso game is below average even though he thinks its his bread and butter. For every 40+ game he has, he shoots 5 for 25, he complains non-stop, and he just looks slow and clunky every time he drives to the basket. Beal feels like he can get where he wants to go whenever he wants. I never have any confidence that Tatum can beat his man off the dribble. I've also never seen a player miss so many point plank layups.

If I had to make a choice between trading Brown or Tatum, I'm definitely trading Tatum. If I'm Brad, I look long and hard about trading Tatum this season. He still has great value around the league. If we can find someone that pairs better with Brown, or a ridiculous package of young players and picks I pull the trigger. This team is going nowhere and Tatum is not the man. He will never reach Pierce levels let alone become a top 5 player. Time to break up this team, and Tatum is the player to trade.

Tatum and pieces for Zion?

[Greenblood35]

Regardless of the complaining, I just don't see Tatum as the guy. I think Simmons and Ryan summed it up best about him the other day. He has so much skill, but doesn't "get it", and will he ever put it all together. He's only 23 but he's been in the league for 5 years. I don't see it. He's not a great shooter, his iso game is below average even though he thinks its his bread and butter. For every 40+ game he has, he shoots 5 for 25, he complains non-stop, and he just looks slow and clunky every time he drives to the basket. Beal feels like he can get where he wants to go whenever he wants. I never have any confidence that Tatum can beat his man off the dribble. I've also never seen a player miss so many point plank layups.

If I had to make a choice between trading Brown or Tatum, I'm definitely trading Tatum. If I'm Brad, I look long and hard about trading Tatum this season. He still has great value around the league. If we can find someone that pairs better with Brown, or a ridiculous package of young players and picks I pull the trigger. This team is going nowhere and Tatum is not the man. He will never reach Pierce levels let alone become a top 5 player. Time to break up this team, and Tatum is the player to trade.

Tatum and pieces for Zion?

In a heartbeat. If NO would go for it.