NBA Season 2021-22

[Moranis]

There is a difference between being a better player and having a better season.  DeRozan is having a great season maybe even a better one than Lebron, but he isn't close to a better player than Lebron. 

[Goldstar88]

I’ll ask the same question again that nobody wants to answer. If Lebron is a top ten or too 5 player right now as people on here continually claim. How is he losing to teams that have a best player like Reggie Jackson or cj McCollum? Has there ever been a top 5 player that led a team to 8 games under .500? When we are we gonna face reality on this?

Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady immediately spring to mind.

I would have to look through their careers but my memory was that McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg. It looks like Garnett made it all but three of his of career until the end with Minnesota.

Tracy McGrady averaged 28/6/6 in 2003-04 and Orlando won 21 games. KG averaged 21/13/4 with GOAT-level defence in 05-06 and Minny won 33 games.

LeBron has made the playoffs more consistently than any player in NBA history, so I'm not sure why he doesn't get credit for that if you write "McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg".

Little surprised by how aggressive you are pushing this comparison. McGrady didn’t even make the top 75 players of all time. If you want to say Lebron is like Tracy McGrady now I think you will rile up the lbj fans, but he made the all nba second team the season you referenced. I think Lebron is probably headed towards the third team, and maybe off the teams if the lakers plummet to 11th or 12th in the west. My comments are for the people that have been slamming their hands on the table claiming Lebron is still a top 5 player as the lakers potentially fall out of the playin and insist he will play 6 more years. I think he is still a good player, but is more than fair to point out he is t a top 5 player this season. Full stop. Obviously McGrady didn’t make the first team and don’t think he finished top 5 in mvp. I will have to dig into kgs outlier season when I am less tired.

Edit: Garnett made 3rd team all nba the season you referenced. So you kind of just agreed with me in a really roundabout way? Kind of a strange post gouki. Tp tho

Still waiting on those dozen players better than LeBron this season... TP

Ok, guys I have that are playing better and having better seasons off the top of my head. Some of them, like Durant obviously need to come back and be healthy to hold their position.

Giannis
Embid
Jokic
Curry
Durant
Donic
Demar
Ja Morant

I don't think there is much of an argument that those guys are playing better, and in most of their cases significantly better than Lebron and all have their teams poised for greater success. Some of them like Dallas and Denver, don't even have significantly better supporting casts than the what LA has had most of the season.

Lebron is in a group of the next level that has about 5-7 people in it like
Butler
Booker
Tatum
Mitchell
Gobert
Towns
And what we are seeing from Harden in Philly.

So could he be as high as like 9th? Maybe, but he definitely isn't higher than that and that was kind of my point. Also I feel like people are just looking at this counting stats and not really watching their games. He routinely is getting a lot of points in blowouts (for example last night, his box score looks ok but he actually added on 11 points in the 4th quarter when his team was down 30. Players like Curry don;t even go into the game in those situations and this has been happening all year). He even once ran in for a layup after the other team had conceded the game and stopped playing to the point the lakers broadcasters joked he really wanted to pass Kareem. He has also contributed to their awful defense, is constantly pouting and is not putting in the consistent effort of these others guys. People can cry all they want, but he shouldn't be losing to the pelicans by 30 at home and he, like everyone else, has some blame in that.

Hate to say it, but you are probably going to have to add Harden to that first group. I’d go:
Jokic
Durant
Embiid
Giannis
Curry
Harden
Lebron

How not Doncic and Morant?

Defense

[celticsclay]

There is a difference between being a better player and having a better season.  DeRozan is having a great season maybe even a better one than Lebron, but he isn't close to a better player than Lebron.

I think for a player like a Demar it is fair to say this, because Demar is at an age where people are not getting significantly better and it is an outlier compared to the rest of his career. But the guys like Ja, Doncic, Embid, Jokic they have all been getting better every year and are at at peak performance you expect to last a number of seasons barring injuries. Lebron is declining any way you slice and is piling up nagging injuries. When these other guys have better seasons than lebron there is no reason to expect them to not have better seasons next year as well and they are just at a point, better players moving forward.

[celticsclay]

I’ll ask the same question again that nobody wants to answer. If Lebron is a top ten or too 5 player right now as people on here continually claim. How is he losing to teams that have a best player like Reggie Jackson or cj McCollum? Has there ever been a top 5 player that led a team to 8 games under .500? When we are we gonna face reality on this?

Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady immediately spring to mind.

I would have to look through their careers but my memory was that McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg. It looks like Garnett made it all but three of his of career until the end with Minnesota.

Tracy McGrady averaged 28/6/6 in 2003-04 and Orlando won 21 games. KG averaged 21/13/4 with GOAT-level defence in 05-06 and Minny won 33 games.

LeBron has made the playoffs more consistently than any player in NBA history, so I'm not sure why he doesn't get credit for that if you write "McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg".

Little surprised by how aggressive you are pushing this comparison. McGrady didn’t even make the top 75 players of all time. If you want to say Lebron is like Tracy McGrady now I think you will rile up the lbj fans, but he made the all nba second team the season you referenced. I think Lebron is probably headed towards the third team, and maybe off the teams if the lakers plummet to 11th or 12th in the west. My comments are for the people that have been slamming their hands on the table claiming Lebron is still a top 5 player as the lakers potentially fall out of the playin and insist he will play 6 more years. I think he is still a good player, but is more than fair to point out he is t a top 5 player this season. Full stop. Obviously McGrady didn’t make the first team and don’t think he finished top 5 in mvp. I will have to dig into kgs outlier season when I am less tired.

Edit: Garnett made 3rd team all nba the season you referenced. So you kind of just agreed with me in a really roundabout way? Kind of a strange post gouki. Tp tho

Still waiting on those dozen players better than LeBron this season... TP

Ok, guys I have that are playing better and having better seasons off the top of my head. Some of them, like Durant obviously need to come back and be healthy to hold their position.

Giannis
Embid
Jokic
Curry
Durant
Donic
Demar
Ja Morant

I don't think there is much of an argument that those guys are playing better, and in most of their cases significantly better than Lebron and all have their teams poised for greater success. Some of them like Dallas and Denver, don't even have significantly better supporting casts than the what LA has had most of the season.

Lebron is in a group of the next level that has about 5-7 people in it like
Butler
Booker
Tatum
Mitchell
Gobert
Towns
And what we are seeing from Harden in Philly.

So could he be as high as like 9th? Maybe, but he definitely isn't higher than that and that was kind of my point. Also I feel like people are just looking at this counting stats and not really watching their games. He routinely is getting a lot of points in blowouts (for example last night, his box score looks ok but he actually added on 11 points in the 4th quarter when his team was down 30. Players like Curry don;t even go into the game in those situations and this has been happening all year). He even once ran in for a layup after the other team had conceded the game and stopped playing to the point the lakers broadcasters joked he really wanted to pass Kareem. He has also contributed to their awful defense, is constantly pouting and is not putting in the consistent effort of these others guys. People can cry all they want, but he shouldn't be losing to the pelicans by 30 at home and he, like everyone else, has some blame in that.

Hate to say it, but you are probably going to have to add Harden to that first group. I’d go:
Jokic
Durant
Embiid
Giannis
Curry
Harden
Lebron

How not Doncic and Morant?

Defense

Umm have you seen Lebron's defense this season? His DBPM is 1.3 his defensive rating is per 100 posessions is 108.

[Moranis]

I’ll ask the same question again that nobody wants to answer. If Lebron is a top ten or too 5 player right now as people on here continually claim. How is he losing to teams that have a best player like Reggie Jackson or cj McCollum? Has there ever been a top 5 player that led a team to 8 games under .500? When we are we gonna face reality on this?

Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady immediately spring to mind.

I would have to look through their careers but my memory was that McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg. It looks like Garnett made it all but three of his of career until the end with Minnesota.

Tracy McGrady averaged 28/6/6 in 2003-04 and Orlando won 21 games. KG averaged 21/13/4 with GOAT-level defence in 05-06 and Minny won 33 games.

LeBron has made the playoffs more consistently than any player in NBA history, so I'm not sure why he doesn't get credit for that if you write "McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg".

Little surprised by how aggressive you are pushing this comparison. McGrady didn’t even make the top 75 players of all time. If you want to say Lebron is like Tracy McGrady now I think you will rile up the lbj fans, but he made the all nba second team the season you referenced. I think Lebron is probably headed towards the third team, and maybe off the teams if the lakers plummet to 11th or 12th in the west. My comments are for the people that have been slamming their hands on the table claiming Lebron is still a top 5 player as the lakers potentially fall out of the playin and insist he will play 6 more years. I think he is still a good player, but is more than fair to point out he is t a top 5 player this season. Full stop. Obviously McGrady didn’t make the first team and don’t think he finished top 5 in mvp. I will have to dig into kgs outlier season when I am less tired.

Edit: Garnett made 3rd team all nba the season you referenced. So you kind of just agreed with me in a really roundabout way? Kind of a strange post gouki. Tp tho

Still waiting on those dozen players better than LeBron this season... TP

Ok, guys I have that are playing better and having better seasons off the top of my head. Some of them, like Durant obviously need to come back and be healthy to hold their position.

Giannis
Embid
Jokic
Curry
Durant
Donic
Demar
Ja Morant

I don't think there is much of an argument that those guys are playing better, and in most of their cases significantly better than Lebron and all have their teams poised for greater success. Some of them like Dallas and Denver, don't even have significantly better supporting casts than the what LA has had most of the season.

Lebron is in a group of the next level that has about 5-7 people in it like
Butler
Booker
Tatum
Mitchell
Gobert
Towns
And what we are seeing from Harden in Philly.

So could he be as high as like 9th? Maybe, but he definitely isn't higher than that and that was kind of my point. Also I feel like people are just looking at this counting stats and not really watching their games. He routinely is getting a lot of points in blowouts (for example last night, his box score looks ok but he actually added on 11 points in the 4th quarter when his team was down 30. Players like Curry don;t even go into the game in those situations and this has been happening all year). He even once ran in for a layup after the other team had conceded the game and stopped playing to the point the lakers broadcasters joked he really wanted to pass Kareem. He has also contributed to their awful defense, is constantly pouting and is not putting in the consistent effort of these others guys. People can cry all they want, but he shouldn't be losing to the pelicans by 30 at home and he, like everyone else, has some blame in that.

Hate to say it, but you are probably going to have to add Harden to that first group. I’d go:
Jokic
Durant
Embiid
Giannis
Curry
Harden
Lebron

How not Doncic and Morant?

Defense

Umm have you seen Lebron's defense this season? His DBPM is 1.3 his defensive rating is per 100 posessions is 108.

Sure, but Lebron scores more on a better efficiency than Ja.  he rebounds significantly better.  He passes about the same.

I mean seriously which guy would you rather have the one scoring 29.0 ppg with a 61.3 TS% that adds 7.9 rpg and 6.3 apg or the one scoring 27.1 ppg with a 57.2 TS% that adds 5.9 rpg and 6.7 apg.  Add to that the first guy has a higher WS/48, better BPM, better VORP and whose team is actually better when he is on the floor and not worse (Ja's on/off per 100 possessions is -0.3 while Lebron's is +1.5) and there is basically no argument that Ja is better than Lebron this year or that he is in fact a better player.  Basically every single metric you can use leads you to the conclusion that Lebron is still better than Ja and it isn't all that close. 

Doncic is a closer case because he is a better rebounder and passer than Lebron is right now, but the advanced metrics all still say Lebron is better as he is a significantly more efficient scorer and defender (even with him losing some) - i.e. Lebron has more WS, a better WS/48, a better BPM, and the same VORP and Lebron has the better on/off differential (Doncic's is +0.3 on/off per 100 possessions).

This year Lebron is not only better than Ja and Luka, he has statistically had a better season as well.  And the younger guys have both only played slightly more games than Lebron so you can't even use that against Lebron with those 2.

[nickagneta]

These Lebron arguments make me think of our last CS Draft when I had Lebron and drafted him 6th.

Jrue Holiday/Darius Garland
Brandon Ingram/Seth Curry
Jaylen Brown
Lebron James/Marcus Morris
Jonás Valanciunas/Robert Williams

Deep bench: Jeff Green(#10 in rotation), Kelly Olynyk(#11 in the rotation),Joe Harris(injured but maybe back for playoffs and probably replaces Uncle Jeff at #10 once healthy), Russell Westbrook (garbage time specialist)

My last man in the rotation is averaging 18/7/7 this year!!!!

What great years for the guys playing on that team.

[Roy H.]

These Lebron arguments make me think of our last CS Draft when I had Lebron and drafted him 6th.

Jrue Holiday/Darius Garland
Brandon Ingram/Seth Curry
Jaylen Brown
Lebron James/Marcus Morris
Jonás Valanciunas/Robert Williams

Deep bench: Jeff Green(#10 in rotation), Kelly Olynyk(#11 in the rotation),Joe Harris(injured but maybe back for playoffs and probably replaces Uncle Jeff at #10 once healthy), Russell Westbrook (garbage time specialist)

My last man in the rotation is averaging 18/7/7 this year!!!!

What great years for the guys playing on that team.

Your team was one of the favorites then, and still would be.

None of the teams stands out as head and shoulders above the rest.  I think my favorite team in hindsight is Indy.  I loved them at the time, and love them more now:

G: Dejounte Murray, Lonzo Ball, Goran Dragic
G: Paul George, Tyler Herro
F: Jayson Tatum, Terrence Ross
F: Pascal Siakam, Jae Crowder, Larry Nance Jr
C: Domantas Sabonis, Jarrett Allen, Steven Adams

Weirdly, PG-13 is the weak link.  Murray and Allen were really good picks.

[tazzmaniac]

I’ll ask the same question again that nobody wants to answer. If Lebron is a top ten or too 5 player right now as people on here continually claim. How is he losing to teams that have a best player like Reggie Jackson or cj McCollum? Has there ever been a top 5 player that led a team to 8 games under .500? When we are we gonna face reality on this?

Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady immediately spring to mind.

I would have to look through their careers but my memory was that McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg. It looks like Garnett made it all but three of his of career until the end with Minnesota.

Tracy McGrady averaged 28/6/6 in 2003-04 and Orlando won 21 games. KG averaged 21/13/4 with GOAT-level defence in 05-06 and Minny won 33 games.

LeBron has made the playoffs more consistently than any player in NBA history, so I'm not sure why he doesn't get credit for that if you write "McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg".

Little surprised by how aggressive you are pushing this comparison. McGrady didn’t even make the top 75 players of all time. If you want to say Lebron is like Tracy McGrady now I think you will rile up the lbj fans, but he made the all nba second team the season you referenced. I think Lebron is probably headed towards the third team, and maybe off the teams if the lakers plummet to 11th or 12th in the west. My comments are for the people that have been slamming their hands on the table claiming Lebron is still a top 5 player as the lakers potentially fall out of the playin and insist he will play 6 more years. I think he is still a good player, but is more than fair to point out he is t a top 5 player this season. Full stop. Obviously McGrady didn’t make the first team and don’t think he finished top 5 in mvp. I will have to dig into kgs outlier season when I am less tired.

Edit: Garnett made 3rd team all nba the season you referenced. So you kind of just agreed with me in a really roundabout way? Kind of a strange post gouki. Tp tho

Still waiting on those dozen players better than LeBron this season... TP

Ok, guys I have that are playing better and having better seasons off the top of my head. Some of them, like Durant obviously need to come back and be healthy to hold their position.

Giannis
Embid
Jokic
Curry
Durant
Donic
Demar
Ja Morant

I don't think there is much of an argument that those guys are playing better, and in most of their cases significantly better than Lebron and all have their teams poised for greater success. Some of them like Dallas and Denver, don't even have significantly better supporting casts than the what LA has had most of the season.

Lebron is in a group of the next level that has about 5-7 people in it like
Butler
Booker
Tatum
Mitchell
Gobert
Towns
And what we are seeing from Harden in Philly.

So could he be as high as like 9th? Maybe, but he definitely isn't higher than that and that was kind of my point. Also I feel like people are just looking at this counting stats and not really watching their games. He routinely is getting a lot of points in blowouts (for example last night, his box score looks ok but he actually added on 11 points in the 4th quarter when his team was down 30. Players like Curry don;t even go into the game in those situations and this has been happening all year). He even once ran in for a layup after the other team had conceded the game and stopped playing to the point the lakers broadcasters joked he really wanted to pass Kareem. He has also contributed to their awful defense, is constantly pouting and is not putting in the consistent effort of these others guys. People can cry all they want, but he shouldn't be losing to the pelicans by 30 at home and he, like everyone else, has some blame in that.

Hate to say it, but you are probably going to have to add Harden to that first group. I’d go:
Jokic
Durant
Embiid
Giannis
Curry
Harden
Lebron

Clay hates to say it too.  He had Harden on death's door a few weeks ago. 

Your top 5 is mine albeit in a different order.  I'm torn between Harden and Lebron at 6th.  If you swapped Lebron for Harden, would the Sixers have a better or worse shot at the championship? 

Doncic is close but don't think he's quite there yet.  I'd obviously choose Doncic for his age but for at least this season I'd choose Lebron or Harden for at least this season. 

Don't think Morant is that close.  Think he is getting a bit overhyped.  The Grizzlies are good with or without him.  He's 6th on their team in +/-.  Memphis overall is OFFRTG 113.1 and DEFRTG 108.7.  With Morant on court, they are 114.4 and 110.8.  Swapping Lebron or Harden for Morant, would give them a much better shot at the championship.  Doncic too but to a lesser extent.      

[celticsclay]

I’ll ask the same question again that nobody wants to answer. If Lebron is a top ten or too 5 player right now as people on here continually claim. How is he losing to teams that have a best player like Reggie Jackson or cj McCollum? Has there ever been a top 5 player that led a team to 8 games under .500? When we are we gonna face reality on this?

Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady immediately spring to mind.

I would have to look through their careers but my memory was that McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg. It looks like Garnett made it all but three of his of career until the end with Minnesota.

Tracy McGrady averaged 28/6/6 in 2003-04 and Orlando won 21 games. KG averaged 21/13/4 with GOAT-level defence in 05-06 and Minny won 33 games.

LeBron has made the playoffs more consistently than any player in NBA history, so I'm not sure why he doesn't get credit for that if you write "McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg".

Little surprised by how aggressive you are pushing this comparison. McGrady didn’t even make the top 75 players of all time. If you want to say Lebron is like Tracy McGrady now I think you will rile up the lbj fans, but he made the all nba second team the season you referenced. I think Lebron is probably headed towards the third team, and maybe off the teams if the lakers plummet to 11th or 12th in the west. My comments are for the people that have been slamming their hands on the table claiming Lebron is still a top 5 player as the lakers potentially fall out of the playin and insist he will play 6 more years. I think he is still a good player, but is more than fair to point out he is t a top 5 player this season. Full stop. Obviously McGrady didn’t make the first team and don’t think he finished top 5 in mvp. I will have to dig into kgs outlier season when I am less tired.

Edit: Garnett made 3rd team all nba the season you referenced. So you kind of just agreed with me in a really roundabout way? Kind of a strange post gouki. Tp tho

Still waiting on those dozen players better than LeBron this season... TP

Ok, guys I have that are playing better and having better seasons off the top of my head. Some of them, like Durant obviously need to come back and be healthy to hold their position.

Giannis
Embid
Jokic
Curry
Durant
Donic
Demar
Ja Morant

I don't think there is much of an argument that those guys are playing better, and in most of their cases significantly better than Lebron and all have their teams poised for greater success. Some of them like Dallas and Denver, don't even have significantly better supporting casts than the what LA has had most of the season.

Lebron is in a group of the next level that has about 5-7 people in it like
Butler
Booker
Tatum
Mitchell
Gobert
Towns
And what we are seeing from Harden in Philly.

So could he be as high as like 9th? Maybe, but he definitely isn't higher than that and that was kind of my point. Also I feel like people are just looking at this counting stats and not really watching their games. He routinely is getting a lot of points in blowouts (for example last night, his box score looks ok but he actually added on 11 points in the 4th quarter when his team was down 30. Players like Curry don;t even go into the game in those situations and this has been happening all year). He even once ran in for a layup after the other team had conceded the game and stopped playing to the point the lakers broadcasters joked he really wanted to pass Kareem. He has also contributed to their awful defense, is constantly pouting and is not putting in the consistent effort of these others guys. People can cry all they want, but he shouldn't be losing to the pelicans by 30 at home and he, like everyone else, has some blame in that.

Hate to say it, but you are probably going to have to add Harden to that first group. I’d go:
Jokic
Durant
Embiid
Giannis
Curry
Harden
Lebron

Clay hates to say it too.  He had Harden on death's door a few weeks ago. 

Your top 5 is mine albeit in a different order.  I'm torn between Harden and Lebron at 6th.  If you swapped Lebron for Harden, would the Sixers have a better or worse shot at the championship? 

Doncic is close but don't think he's quite there yet.  I'd obviously choose Doncic for his age but for at least this season I'd choose Lebron or Harden for at least this season. 

Don't think Morant is that close.  Think he is getting a bit overhyped.  The Grizzlies are good with or without him.  He's 6th on their team in +/-.  Memphis overall is OFFRTG 113.1 and DEFRTG 108.7.  With Morant on court, they are 114.4 and 110.8.  Swapping Lebron or Harden for Morant, would give them a much better shot at the championship.  Doncic too but to a lesser extent.

Tazz I hope you appreciate that unlike some other posters on this site. I absolutely admit when I had a wrong opinion I own it. If harden stays healthy and plays like this the rest of the season I will certainly have been wrong on him dropping off. Objectively though he is still heavy with a gut and has battled hamstring issues for the last two years tied to this week. If he stays healthy and playing well I’ll give you a bunch of tps. I would still be surprised. He was going out to strip clubs as recently as two weeks ago in the middle of the season and has long left in the middle of the season for playoff contenders to go party (it’s somewhat similar to the Rodman story
In the last dance). So we will see.

[liam]

The Kings seem worse post-trade. This Hornets/Bucks game stinks.

[tazzmaniac]

I’ll ask the same question again that nobody wants to answer. If Lebron is a top ten or too 5 player right now as people on here continually claim. How is he losing to teams that have a best player like Reggie Jackson or cj McCollum? Has there ever been a top 5 player that led a team to 8 games under .500? When we are we gonna face reality on this?

Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady immediately spring to mind.

I would have to look through their careers but my memory was that McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg. It looks like Garnett made it all but three of his of career until the end with Minnesota.

Tracy McGrady averaged 28/6/6 in 2003-04 and Orlando won 21 games. KG averaged 21/13/4 with GOAT-level defence in 05-06 and Minny won 33 games.

LeBron has made the playoffs more consistently than any player in NBA history, so I'm not sure why he doesn't get credit for that if you write "McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg".

Little surprised by how aggressive you are pushing this comparison. McGrady didn’t even make the top 75 players of all time. If you want to say Lebron is like Tracy McGrady now I think you will rile up the lbj fans, but he made the all nba second team the season you referenced. I think Lebron is probably headed towards the third team, and maybe off the teams if the lakers plummet to 11th or 12th in the west. My comments are for the people that have been slamming their hands on the table claiming Lebron is still a top 5 player as the lakers potentially fall out of the playin and insist he will play 6 more years. I think he is still a good player, but is more than fair to point out he is t a top 5 player this season. Full stop. Obviously McGrady didn’t make the first team and don’t think he finished top 5 in mvp. I will have to dig into kgs outlier season when I am less tired.

Edit: Garnett made 3rd team all nba the season you referenced. So you kind of just agreed with me in a really roundabout way? Kind of a strange post gouki. Tp tho

Still waiting on those dozen players better than LeBron this season... TP

Ok, guys I have that are playing better and having better seasons off the top of my head. Some of them, like Durant obviously need to come back and be healthy to hold their position.

Giannis
Embid
Jokic
Curry
Durant
Donic
Demar
Ja Morant

I don't think there is much of an argument that those guys are playing better, and in most of their cases significantly better than Lebron and all have their teams poised for greater success. Some of them like Dallas and Denver, don't even have significantly better supporting casts than the what LA has had most of the season.

Lebron is in a group of the next level that has about 5-7 people in it like
Butler
Booker
Tatum
Mitchell
Gobert
Towns
And what we are seeing from Harden in Philly.

So could he be as high as like 9th? Maybe, but he definitely isn't higher than that and that was kind of my point. Also I feel like people are just looking at this counting stats and not really watching their games. He routinely is getting a lot of points in blowouts (for example last night, his box score looks ok but he actually added on 11 points in the 4th quarter when his team was down 30. Players like Curry don;t even go into the game in those situations and this has been happening all year). He even once ran in for a layup after the other team had conceded the game and stopped playing to the point the lakers broadcasters joked he really wanted to pass Kareem. He has also contributed to their awful defense, is constantly pouting and is not putting in the consistent effort of these others guys. People can cry all they want, but he shouldn't be losing to the pelicans by 30 at home and he, like everyone else, has some blame in that.

Hate to say it, but you are probably going to have to add Harden to that first group. I’d go:
Jokic
Durant
Embiid
Giannis
Curry
Harden
Lebron

Clay hates to say it too.  He had Harden on death's door a few weeks ago. 

Your top 5 is mine albeit in a different order.  I'm torn between Harden and Lebron at 6th.  If you swapped Lebron for Harden, would the Sixers have a better or worse shot at the championship? 

Doncic is close but don't think he's quite there yet.  I'd obviously choose Doncic for his age but for at least this season I'd choose Lebron or Harden for at least this season. 

Don't think Morant is that close.  Think he is getting a bit overhyped.  The Grizzlies are good with or without him.  He's 6th on their team in +/-.  Memphis overall is OFFRTG 113.1 and DEFRTG 108.7.  With Morant on court, they are 114.4 and 110.8.  Swapping Lebron or Harden for Morant, would give them a much better shot at the championship.  Doncic too but to a lesser extent.

Tazz I hope you appreciate that unlike some other posters on this site. I absolutely admit when I had a wrong opinion I own it. If harden stays healthy and plays like this the rest of the season I will certainly have been wrong on him dropping off. Objectively though he is still heavy with a gut and has battled hamstring issues for the last two years tied to this week. If he stays healthy and playing well I’ll give you a bunch of tps. I would still be surprised. He was going out to strip clubs as recently as two weeks ago in the middle of the season and has long left in the middle of the season for playoff contenders to go party (it’s somewhat similar to the Rodman story
In the last dance). So we will see.

Hate to break it to you but a lot of the players go out partying and to strip clubs in the middle of the season.  At least two weeks ago, Harden was recuperating and not playing.  Harden certainly could get in better shape but it is what it is.  Even so and with the issues involved with the Nets, Harden was still averaging 22.5 pts, 10.2 asts and 8 rebs with the Nets.  Harden was obviously going to be a much better fit with Embiid.  Harden should be good for a couple more seasons.  It's going to be the last couple seasons on his next contract that could get really ugly. 

Were you also the one questioning Harden's fit with Maxey?  If so, that's already been answered.  Embiid, Harden and Maxey may be the best big 3 with the caveat that Maxey is unproven in the playoffs. 

[Moranis]

Fultz, 16 minutes, 5 of 7 for 10 points, 6 assists, 2 rebounds, and just 1 turnover.

[celticsclay]

I’ll ask the same question again that nobody wants to answer. If Lebron is a top ten or too 5 player right now as people on here continually claim. How is he losing to teams that have a best player like Reggie Jackson or cj McCollum? Has there ever been a top 5 player that led a team to 8 games under .500? When we are we gonna face reality on this?

Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady immediately spring to mind.

I would have to look through their careers but my memory was that McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg. It looks like Garnett made it all but three of his of career until the end with Minnesota.

Tracy McGrady averaged 28/6/6 in 2003-04 and Orlando won 21 games. KG averaged 21/13/4 with GOAT-level defence in 05-06 and Minny won 33 games.

LeBron has made the playoffs more consistently than any player in NBA history, so I'm not sure why he doesn't get credit for that if you write "McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg".

Little surprised by how aggressive you are pushing this comparison. McGrady didn’t even make the top 75 players of all time. If you want to say Lebron is like Tracy McGrady now I think you will rile up the lbj fans, but he made the all nba second team the season you referenced. I think Lebron is probably headed towards the third team, and maybe off the teams if the lakers plummet to 11th or 12th in the west. My comments are for the people that have been slamming their hands on the table claiming Lebron is still a top 5 player as the lakers potentially fall out of the playin and insist he will play 6 more years. I think he is still a good player, but is more than fair to point out he is t a top 5 player this season. Full stop. Obviously McGrady didn’t make the first team and don’t think he finished top 5 in mvp. I will have to dig into kgs outlier season when I am less tired.

Edit: Garnett made 3rd team all nba the season you referenced. So you kind of just agreed with me in a really roundabout way? Kind of a strange post gouki. Tp tho

Still waiting on those dozen players better than LeBron this season... TP

Ok, guys I have that are playing better and having better seasons off the top of my head. Some of them, like Durant obviously need to come back and be healthy to hold their position.

Giannis
Embid
Jokic
Curry
Durant
Donic
Demar
Ja Morant

I don't think there is much of an argument that those guys are playing better, and in most of their cases significantly better than Lebron and all have their teams poised for greater success. Some of them like Dallas and Denver, don't even have significantly better supporting casts than the what LA has had most of the season.

Lebron is in a group of the next level that has about 5-7 people in it like
Butler
Booker
Tatum
Mitchell
Gobert
Towns
And what we are seeing from Harden in Philly.

So could he be as high as like 9th? Maybe, but he definitely isn't higher than that and that was kind of my point. Also I feel like people are just looking at this counting stats and not really watching their games. He routinely is getting a lot of points in blowouts (for example last night, his box score looks ok but he actually added on 11 points in the 4th quarter when his team was down 30. Players like Curry don;t even go into the game in those situations and this has been happening all year). He even once ran in for a layup after the other team had conceded the game and stopped playing to the point the lakers broadcasters joked he really wanted to pass Kareem. He has also contributed to their awful defense, is constantly pouting and is not putting in the consistent effort of these others guys. People can cry all they want, but he shouldn't be losing to the pelicans by 30 at home and he, like everyone else, has some blame in that.

Hate to say it, but you are probably going to have to add Harden to that first group. I’d go:
Jokic
Durant
Embiid
Giannis
Curry
Harden
Lebron

Clay hates to say it too.  He had Harden on death's door a few weeks ago. 

Your top 5 is mine albeit in a different order.  I'm torn between Harden and Lebron at 6th.  If you swapped Lebron for Harden, would the Sixers have a better or worse shot at the championship? 

Doncic is close but don't think he's quite there yet.  I'd obviously choose Doncic for his age but for at least this season I'd choose Lebron or Harden for at least this season. 

Don't think Morant is that close.  Think he is getting a bit overhyped.  The Grizzlies are good with or without him.  He's 6th on their team in +/-.  Memphis overall is OFFRTG 113.1 and DEFRTG 108.7.  With Morant on court, they are 114.4 and 110.8.  Swapping Lebron or Harden for Morant, would give them a much better shot at the championship.  Doncic too but to a lesser extent.

I don’t recall saying anything about maxey and harden. I’m not even sure what I would have said? And you are doing the always sunny in Philadelphia routine again. No there are not tons of players that do what harden does party wise, and basically nobody that does it that is 32. It’s very silly to act like this isn’t a potential issue. He also literally has repeatedly injured his hamstrings the last few years including being rendered useless in last years playoffs. These are all objective facts and not refutable. Please stop the nonsense. There is very fair reason to have doubts on harden going on a finals run. Lets go bananas cause they get a disasterous Knicks team and the twolves as home.

[nickagneta]

I’ll ask the same question again that nobody wants to answer. If Lebron is a top ten or too 5 player right now as people on here continually claim. How is he losing to teams that have a best player like Reggie Jackson or cj McCollum? Has there ever been a top 5 player that led a team to 8 games under .500? When we are we gonna face reality on this?

Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady immediately spring to mind.

I would have to look through their careers but my memory was that McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg. It looks like Garnett made it all but three of his of career until the end with Minnesota.

Tracy McGrady averaged 28/6/6 in 2003-04 and Orlando won 21 games. KG averaged 21/13/4 with GOAT-level defence in 05-06 and Minny won 33 games.

LeBron has made the playoffs more consistently than any player in NBA history, so I'm not sure why he doesn't get credit for that if you write "McGrady made the playoffs the majority of his career as did kg".

Little surprised by how aggressive you are pushing this comparison. McGrady didn’t even make the top 75 players of all time. If you want to say Lebron is like Tracy McGrady now I think you will rile up the lbj fans, but he made the all nba second team the season you referenced. I think Lebron is probably headed towards the third team, and maybe off the teams if the lakers plummet to 11th or 12th in the west. My comments are for the people that have been slamming their hands on the table claiming Lebron is still a top 5 player as the lakers potentially fall out of the playin and insist he will play 6 more years. I think he is still a good player, but is more than fair to point out he is t a top 5 player this season. Full stop. Obviously McGrady didn’t make the first team and don’t think he finished top 5 in mvp. I will have to dig into kgs outlier season when I am less tired.

Edit: Garnett made 3rd team all nba the season you referenced. So you kind of just agreed with me in a really roundabout way? Kind of a strange post gouki. Tp tho

Still waiting on those dozen players better than LeBron this season... TP

Ok, guys I have that are playing better and having better seasons off the top of my head. Some of them, like Durant obviously need to come back and be healthy to hold their position.

Giannis
Embid
Jokic
Curry
Durant
Donic
Demar
Ja Morant

I don't think there is much of an argument that those guys are playing better, and in most of their cases significantly better than Lebron and all have their teams poised for greater success. Some of them like Dallas and Denver, don't even have significantly better supporting casts than the what LA has had most of the season.

Lebron is in a group of the next level that has about 5-7 people in it like
Butler
Booker
Tatum
Mitchell
Gobert
Towns
And what we are seeing from Harden in Philly.

So could he be as high as like 9th? Maybe, but he definitely isn't higher than that and that was kind of my point. Also I feel like people are just looking at this counting stats and not really watching their games. He routinely is getting a lot of points in blowouts (for example last night, his box score looks ok but he actually added on 11 points in the 4th quarter when his team was down 30. Players like Curry don;t even go into the game in those situations and this has been happening all year). He even once ran in for a layup after the other team had conceded the game and stopped playing to the point the lakers broadcasters joked he really wanted to pass Kareem. He has also contributed to their awful defense, is constantly pouting and is not putting in the consistent effort of these others guys. People can cry all they want, but he shouldn't be losing to the pelicans by 30 at home and he, like everyone else, has some blame in that.

Hate to say it, but you are probably going to have to add Harden to that first group. I’d go:
Jokic
Durant
Embiid
Giannis
Curry
Harden
Lebron

Clay hates to say it too.  He had Harden on death's door a few weeks ago. 

Your top 5 is mine albeit in a different order.  I'm torn between Harden and Lebron at 6th.  If you swapped Lebron for Harden, would the Sixers have a better or worse shot at the championship? 

Doncic is close but don't think he's quite there yet.  I'd obviously choose Doncic for his age but for at least this season I'd choose Lebron or Harden for at least this season. 

Don't think Morant is that close.  Think he is getting a bit overhyped.  The Grizzlies are good with or without him.  He's 6th on their team in +/-.  Memphis overall is OFFRTG 113.1 and DEFRTG 108.7.  With Morant on court, they are 114.4 and 110.8.  Swapping Lebron or Harden for Morant, would give them a much better shot at the championship.  Doncic too but to a lesser extent.

I don’t recall saying anything about maxey and harden. I’m not even sure what I would have said? And you are doing the always sunny in Philadelphia routine again. No there are not tons of players that do what harden does party wise, and basically nobody that does it that is 32. It’s very silly to act like this isn’t a potential issue. He also literally has repeatedly injured his hamstrings the last few years including being rendered useless in last years playoffs. These are all objective facts and not refutable. Please stop the nonsense. There is very fair reason to have doubts on harden going on a finals run. Lets go bananas cause they get a disasterous Knicks team and the twolves as home.

I think it fairly naive to think NBA players, especially on the road, don't go to normal clubs and gentleman's clubs on the regular. Their millionaire's and their entire schedule is set up for them chilling out and relaxing late into the early morning hours.

Now, that's not saying all do. I'm also not saying it's stars or non-stars. But my guess is a whole giant bunch do.

The Kardashians alone must have dated a quarter of the league. You think those dates only happened off season at Saturday afternoon barbeques? 😆😂🤣🤣🤣

[SparzWizard]

This how it works? Pacers who smoked the Celtics get crushed by the Orlando Magic lol