The Weird Thing About This Off-Season...

[nickagneta]

Can we please stop thinking that one of our 4 centers(Horford, Timelord, Kanter, Fernando) can play PF? They can't. They don't have the defensive capabilities and almost all of their offensive skills are that of in the paint centers(except Horford's outside shooting).

Gone are the days of PFs playing like just smaller centers only on the other side of the paint. Stretch PFs/big wings are what is "normal" in the NBA now and we have one of the best in the league in Jayson Tatum. He is our PF, no matter how much people want to pretend otherwise.

[#1P4P]

The NBA has moved the Power Forward position to the perimeter, but most 4s are not mismatches against Horford. On defense, his IQ and length allow him to clog passing lanes, contest 3s, and stop close outs. On offense, he shoots around league average from 3 and has the strength and post moves to punish smaller defenders.

Excluding us the top 10 EC teams are starting the following players at PF:

Collins
Durant
Sabonis
Tucker
Antetokounpo
Randle
Harris
Hayward
Siakam
Patrick Williams

Aside from Durant (who’s a walking mismatch), there are few matchups issues that will make him unplayable at the 4. He hasn’t suffered a major injury and looks similar to when he was here, when the Baynes pairing was one of our top lineups.

[tonydelk]

Eh...  I think Ime saw first hand what Horford looks like as a PF these days.  He couldn't play the position next to Embiid, and I don't think he'll play it well in Boston, either.

Keep in mind both are perimeter players.  Rob plays in the post.  Embiid and horford are similar in skill set.  It wasn't a good fit from the beginning

[gouki88]

Eh...  I think Ime saw first hand what Horford looks like as a PF these days.  He couldn't play the position next to Embiid, and I don't think he'll play it well in Boston, either.

Keep in mind both are perimeter players.  Rob plays in the post.  Embiid and horford are similar in skill set.  It wasn't a good fit from the beginning

Embiid takes between 3 and 4 threes a game. He is not a 'perimeter' player. Most of his offence is post shooting and drawing fouls by beating people down inside.

[Moranis]

Eh...  I think Ime saw first hand what Horford looks like as a PF these days.  He couldn't play the position next to Embiid, and I don't think he'll play it well in Boston, either.

Keep in mind both are perimeter players.  Rob plays in the post.  Embiid and horford are similar in skill set.  It wasn't a good fit from the beginning

Embiid takes between 3 and 4 threes a game. He is not a 'perimeter' player. Most of his offence is post shooting and drawing fouls by beating people down inside.

Yep which is also where Simmons is at his best which is why they often have so many problems.  What they can't do is have anyone else in the paint.  They need the shooters.  And for as good as Horford is shooting as a big man, he is still best suited to play inside offensively.

[BudweiserCeltic]

This was from a few weeks ago, about Parker by Sean Deveney in Forbes, but thought it was relevant to this thread since it focuses a bit on the PF situation:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/seandeveney/2021/08/28/like-it-or-not-the-boston-celtics-will-be-counting-on-jabari-parker/

Here are some things that stood out to me:

For all Stevens’ willingness to pencil in Parker as a piece for the team going forward, fact is that his deal for this season is not guaranteed and he could easily be waived, especially as a bench player on a team with 16 contracts. But the Markkanen-Nance deal takes out of play two power forward targets the Celtics had here in the waning stages of the offseason. Markkanen was always a pipe dream for the Celtics—they were not going to give up a first-round pick for someone so injury-prone—but Nance was a very real target who would fit well with the team.

“They were certainly trying to finish out that roster and power forward was the spot they were looking at most,” one rival executive said. “But there were no natural fits there. I think they hope was to get a bargain, a Jeff Green or Bobby Portis type of situation, and maybe they still could with a guy like Kevin Love. Don’t underestimate how much Brad likes Parker, though. I think that is something they really want to give a shot.”

[Big333223]

My guess is they're seeing the 4 spot as another wing spot.

And maybe they're fine with Jabari Parker as the backup pf? If he gets himself into shape he could really bring something to this team, especially if he's sharing time with Horford who can space the floor for him and let him get into the paint and bang around.

[ETNCeltics]

None of our bigs are going to be able to play together much. Maybe Al and TL in certain situations, but neither is going to play much more than 25 minutes per night, so having only Kanter and Parker as backups doesn't make playing 2 at once even really feasible. 4 rotation spots when there's only 4 of them on the roster? Unless you're counting on GW....and please, no more GW, he's not a big, he's not a wing, we've seen enough.

[Vermont Green]

There is no doubt that PF is this current team's biggest weakness.  I don't buy this argument that this doesn't matter.  Tatum is not a PF, modern or otherwise, he is a wing (actually one of the best wings in the game) and because we don't have a real PF on the roster, we are forced to play with only one big.  I don't think this is the same as saying Tatum plays PF.  People say that the traditional roles don't matter anymore and then say Tatum is a PF just because he is the biggest of the 3 wings we choose to play.

There is nothing wrong with playing with 1-big, 3-wings, 1-PG at times.  Most every team does this.  The league MVP and the Finals MVP this year was a PF though.  A good PF is still a weapon.  A team is better if they have that weapon then if they don't.  MIL could play Giannis in a 1-big line up if they wanted to, and they do that sometimes, but their most frequent line up is 2-bigs, for a reason.

I agree with others that I don't see Horford having enough skill to play PF alongside say RWilliams or Kanter.  I think those 3 will rotate as our center, or if you prefer, our bigger big.  I think people are going to be surprised at how much Parker and GWilliams are forced to play as the PF or the second big or whatever you want to call it.   My guess is at least 24 min between the two in a more traditional 2-big line up.  Maybe more. 

Bruno Fernando is deep bench so whether you want to call him a PF or a Center or a Combo Big, it doesn't really matter.  The opportunity for him is at PF though.  His career numbers, meager as they are, are really not all that much different than GWill or Ojeleye.  They are all about 3-4 pts, 3-4 rebs.  So minutes could be there for him same as they were for Ojeleye and GWill.  Parker is career about 14 pts / 6 rebs.  I am sure that this is what the Celtics are hoping to get out of Parker.  If that is the Parker we get, he will see 18-24 minutes at PF/Swing.  If not, if in the preseason he is no better than GWill, he probably gets cut.

[Kernewek]

  The league MVP and the Finals MVP this year was a PF though.

I guess he's a power forward by process of elimination, but this is actually kind of interesting when it comes to the definition of the role, since Giannis is more or less a point forward (typically the three on the floor but really GA is equally terrifying 1-4 so saying he has a real position is a little silly to me) but as you say, Milwaukee's most frequent lineup was a center, Giannis and three other guards.

They're not very similar in a lot of ways, but Charles Barkley played a similar style of PF (and obviously LeBron has moved into the four a bit more as he's slowed down). Not really an argument for "positionless basketball" but definitely players that break the mould for the archetypes.

[Moranis]

You can go big or small, talent is what matters.  Just look at the finals team, one started Giannis at PF, the other a more traditional SF in Crowder.  The semi-final teams, the Clippers basically started Paul George at PF (and sometimes Batum at center) while the Hawks started Collins, a traditional sized big PF.  The Sixers are weird because they have Simmons (who is huge, though guard like) along with Harris and 2 guards.  The Jazz went with a wing playing PF.  The Nets went with a guy that has played SF for most of his career, of course Durant is 7 feet tall.  The Knicks had Randle, a real traditional PF.  The Heat had Ariza, a traditional SF.

At the end of the day talent matters, I'd just like to see Tatum at SF because that to me is his best position and where the team will get the most value.  Just doesn't fit with the roster though.

[Vermont Green]

  The league MVP and the Finals MVP this year was a PF though.

I guess he's a power forward by process of elimination, but this is actually kind of interesting when it comes to the definition of the role, since Giannis is more or less a point forward (typically the three on the floor but really GA is equally terrifying 1-4 so saying he has a real position is a little silly to me) but as you say, Milwaukee's most frequent lineup was a center, Giannis and three other guards.

They're not very similar in a lot of ways, but Charles Barkley played a similar style of PF (and obviously LeBron has moved into the four a bit more as he's slowed down). Not really an argument for "positionless basketball" but definitely players that break the mould for the archetypes.

You "guess" he is a power forward?   I think there was a thread about whether Giannis is now the best PF of all time.  I find it odd  that some people say flat out that Tatum is a PF when to me he is clearly a wing while others hedge on whether Giannis is a PF.  Both these players are versatile and can do many things on the floor but Giannis is a natural PF and Tatum is a natural wing.

My only point is that it is not true that power forwards are somehow obsolete in the NBA.  Good ones are more rare than ever but if you have a good one, it is a weapon.  The best player on the best team is a PF.  If you don't have one, you have to work around it.  Crowder and Durant were mentioned as PF workarounds for two good teams.  Tatum can be our workaround for it.  To me, Crowder is more of a swing, much stronger, not nearly the playmaker as Tatum so playing him as a swing/PF to me is fine.  You are not giving up as much as compared to playing him at wing and someone else at PF.   I want to maximize Tatum.  PHO does not need to maximize Crowder.

Durant is just a freak but if I were creating a perfect team for Durant, I would have him play wing.  That is how you maximize his abilities.  He is so good and the Nets are so good, it really doesn't matter that much with him.  I think it does matter some with Tatum.  I think he will be at his best on the floor with a good center and a athletic PF or swing.  Now if that means taking Schroder or Richardson off the floor and the PF you put on the floor has way less talent, then it doesn't help.  For example if I had to choose between say Crowder as PF with Tatum free to play wing or Richardson and Tatum forced to play PF, Crowder and Tatum is my choice.  If the choice it Richardson or Grant Williams, different story.

[Hoopvortex]

My guess is they're seeing the 4 spot as another wing spot.

I recall Brad saying as much a couple of years ago. Wish I had a link.

And maybe they're fine with Jabari Parker as the backup pf? If he gets himself into shape he could really bring something to this team, especially if he's sharing time with Horford who can space the floor for him and let him get into the paint and bang around.

I have my doubts.

First of all, there is no conceivable scenario where Horford or anyone else is spacing the floor for Jabari. Parker's job on offense was to be an opportunist, to get drop-off passes or offensive rebounds from someone else's penetration. I don't believe in his ravaged body, but I have to say that he excelled in a limited role on offense this past season.

If he could shoot with range it would greatly increase his value, but anything outside of the paint was a crapshoot. He shot well in the playoffs, on the other hand - while his usage, FTr, and turnover% went up and his assist% went down.

Second, you say 'if he gets himself in shape' - trouble is, he's torn his left ACL not once but twice. Where this limits him the most is on defense.

He's played 298 games in seven seasons.

Posters on this forum are trashing and dismissing Grant Williams. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Big333223]

Here comes Juancho.

I can’t speak at all to his ability but he is exactly the type of player the Celtics were missing.

[Celtics2021]

I know we’re not supposed to bump old threads, but I was looking for the thread where the Celtics over/under was discussed, as they officially hit the over tonight, and found this one instead.  I don’t think there’s a poster in this thread, myself included, who had it close to right.  Al and Grant have made the PF rotation a strength instead of a weakness.  Kudos to them and Brad!