Could this be the season, Brown surpasses Tatum?

[Rosco917]

Brown made a noticeable leap last season from the season prior.  His ball handling, shooting,  passing,  shot creation all took another step

Tatum improvement was more incremental

Tatum may always remain the popular one between the two.  But at this rate, could Brown actually surpass Tatum... as the better player?

I already like Brown better at the defensive end, though Tatum does hold some advantages (size and length). Brown just works harder at that end imo.  More attempts to steal and block the ball. Physicality aspect

The pace the Celtics play at is more conducive to Tatum's game...for he is the chosen one. He brings the ball up-court half the time. He gets the media attention and the commercials.

If the Celtics ever decided to push the games pace, Brown in the open court is a nightmare for most defenses.

Actually they make a pretty good Batman and Robin.

[td450]

Brown made a noticeable leap last season from the season prior.  His ball handling, shooting,  passing,  shot creation all took another step

Tatum improvement was more incremental

Tatum may always remain the popular one between the two.  But at this rate, could Brown actually surpass Tatum... as the better player?

I already like Brown better at the defensive end, though Tatum does hold some advantages (size and length). Brown just works harder at that end imo.  More attempts to steal and block the ball. Physicality aspect

The pace the Celtics play at is more conducive to Tatum's game...for he is the chosen one. He brings the ball up-court half the time. He gets the media attention and the commercials.

If the Celtics ever decided to push the games pace, Brown in the open court is a nightmare for most defenses.

Actually they make a pretty good Batman and Robin.

It is a weird dynamic. The team is fully constructed around Tatum. They have groomed him to play a star role from the beginning. Tatum has held up his end of the bargain.

Jaylen has always operated in the negative space left over. He usually scores his points in a couple of seams in the game, then steps aside. It sure looks like that's what Stevens has always wanted from him.

For everyone seeing Tatum as the better player, it does seem odd that despite everything being oriented towards Tatum, somehow Jaylen finds a way to generate nearly the same output. It will be very interesting to see what Udoka does here.

I think this could go a lot of different ways. Either of these guys are capable of scoring 30+ per game if needed.

[Tr1boy]

Brown made a noticeable leap last season from the season prior.  His ball handling, shooting,  passing,  shot creation all took another step

Tatum improvement was more incremental

Tatum may always remain the popular one between the two.  But at this rate, could Brown actually surpass Tatum... as the better player?

I already like Brown better at the defensive end, though Tatum does hold some advantages (size and length). Brown just works harder at that end imo.  More attempts to steal and block the ball. Physicality aspect

The pace the Celtics play at is more conducive to Tatum's game...for he is the chosen one. He brings the ball up-court half the time. He gets the media attention and the commercials.

If the Celtics ever decided to push the games pace, Brown in the open court is a nightmare for most defenses.

I don't see Udoka adhering to Brad pace

If SL is any indication, the pace will be faster for next season

Tatum has the ability to play at a faster pace.....so we will see

Imo... I imagine the way Tatum will be utilized...

example the SL game or disaster against KINGS

Team is rolling from the start.  Kings fight back and raise it to another level/effort.   Celtics system struggles to make shots

Udoka tells Tatum to go to work 1 on 1 or Tatum recognizes and goes to work.   

For the bulk of the other games... Celtics look like 4-0 SL system/team.   No huge stress on one single player.  Try to keep players fresh, especially the all stars

[18isGREATERthan72]

I know their box score stats are pretty comparable, and it's easy to look at them side by side and say they're within throwing distance of each other, but Tatum's net rating was +2 and Jaylen's net rating was -1

It's possible this is a function of who they were paired with, but Tatum on the floor meant the Celtics were separating from their opponents in a positive way, and Brown on the floor meant the Celtics were losing ground.

I don't look at this metric all on its own, but I think the fact that Tatum has led the team in net rating for a few seasons now IIRC is a big indication of his impact on the floor and can't just be ignored.

It's a worthless stat.  First, it's an estimate.  Second, Tatum has perhaps led Brown, but he hasn't led the team. 

Williams:  +35
Theis:  +11
Kornet:  +7
Thompson:  +4
Jabari:  +4
Fournier:  +3
Pritchard: +2
Tatum: +2
Smart: +1
Kemba: 0
Nesmith: -1
Brown: -2
G. Williams: -9
Langford: -21

Realistically, I don't think that distribution tells us a thing about the players.

Net rating is the difference between ORtg and DRtg which is the players average points in 100 possessions versus average points given up over 100 possessions.  When players have lower minutes it doesn't mean much, but when you're playing 75% of the game it's an extremely valid metric.

We're not comparing a net rating of someone who plays 10 MPG to someone who plays 35 MPG.  We're comparing two players with almost identical minutes per game played.

It's a less valid metric comparing players on different teams, but when you're comparing two players on the same team, playing similar minutes?

[Moranis]

I know their box score stats are pretty comparable, and it's easy to look at them side by side and say they're within throwing distance of each other, but Tatum's net rating was +2 and Jaylen's net rating was -1

It's possible this is a function of who they were paired with, but Tatum on the floor meant the Celtics were separating from their opponents in a positive way, and Brown on the floor meant the Celtics were losing ground.

I don't look at this metric all on its own, but I think the fact that Tatum has led the team in net rating for a few seasons now IIRC is a big indication of his impact on the floor and can't just be ignored.

It's a worthless stat.  First, it's an estimate.  Second, Tatum has perhaps led Brown, but he hasn't led the team. 

Williams:  +35
Theis:  +11
Kornet:  +7
Thompson:  +4
Jabari:  +4
Fournier:  +3
Pritchard: +2
Tatum: +2
Smart: +1
Kemba: 0
Nesmith: -1
Brown: -2
G. Williams: -9
Langford: -21

Realistically, I don't think that distribution tells us a thing about the players.

Net rating is the difference between ORtg and DRtg which is the players average points in 100 possessions versus average points given up over 100 possessions.  When players have lower minutes it doesn't mean much, but when you're playing 75% of the game it's an extremely valid metric.

We're not comparing a net rating of someone who plays 10 MPG to someone who plays 35 MPG.  We're comparing two players with almost identical minutes per game played.

It's a less valid metric comparing players on different teams, but when you're comparing two players on the same team, playing similar minutes?

I prefer on/off per 100 possessions and in that Tatum has led the team of the regular rotation every season he has been in the league.  Some years it isn't that close.  Tatum from the moment he entered the league has been Boston's most valuable player.  That includes the years with Irving, Horford, and Hayward.  It includes Smart, Brown, and the other young players.  It makes no difference who he plays with and who is out.  Boston needs Tatum to win games.  This has been shown time and time again year after year.  Tatum is the Boston Celtics.  No one else really matters.

[Ogaju]

Not sure why posters always want to try to make it a "who is better" competition with these two. Can't we have both a Bird and McHale? Two all-time greats that are different, with one better than the other, but both working in tandem to make the other even better.

Who cares who is better or will be better?

I love me some Jaylen, everyone here knows that, but I also love Jayson. Tatum is better, now and most likely in the future, though if Jaylen took some huge leap and became Kawhi like, that's not a bad thing.

What I want to see is them honing their skills into a two man machine that can make each other better and make a whole that is better than even their amazing parts.

Difference is Bird and McHale played different positions.

JB and JT are more similar, hence the comparisons will continue until one leaves the other in the dust.

Are you quite sure of that assessment?

Yes.

[gouki88]

Not sure why posters always want to try to make it a "who is better" competition with these two. Can't we have both a Bird and McHale? Two all-time greats that are different, with one better than the other, but both working in tandem to make the other even better.

Who cares who is better or will be better?

I love me some Jaylen, everyone here knows that, but I also love Jayson. Tatum is better, now and most likely in the future, though if Jaylen took some huge leap and became Kawhi like, that's not a bad thing.

What I want to see is them honing their skills into a two man machine that can make each other better and make a whole that is better than even their amazing parts.

Difference is Bird and McHale played different positions.

JB and JT are more similar, hence the comparisons will continue until one leaves the other in the dust.

Are you quite sure of that assessment?

Yes.

That wasn't true until 85-86 when Bird moved over to SF. He'd been the starting PF until then with McHale off the bench. Bird learned how to play alongside two bigs

[BudweiserCeltic]

Not sure why posters always want to try to make it a "who is better" competition with these two. Can't we have both a Bird and McHale? Two all-time greats that are different, with one better than the other, but both working in tandem to make the other even better.

Who cares who is better or will be better?

I love me some Jaylen, everyone here knows that, but I also love Jayson. Tatum is better, now and most likely in the future, though if Jaylen took some huge leap and became Kawhi like, that's not a bad thing.

What I want to see is them honing their skills into a two man machine that can make each other better and make a whole that is better than even their amazing parts.

Difference is Bird and McHale played different positions.

JB and JT are more similar, hence the comparisons will continue until one leaves the other in the dust.

Are you quite sure of that assessment?

Yes.

Then you'd be wrong about Bird and about Tatum and Brown also for that matter.

[nickagneta]

My point about using Bird and McHale as an example wasn't to debate whether Brown/Tatum and/or McHale/Bird play the same position. My point w/Bird and McHale is that two great players can get even better when they play as a unit as each player makes the other better.

Bird and McHale were different players that were good enough to play multiple positions. Tatum and Brown are different players that are good enough to play multiple positions. Bird and McHale are considered the amongst the best players ever at their positions.

Clearly two awesome players can coexist and make each other even better. Clearly, it didn't matter who was better, Bird and McHale. What mattered was how they played with each other and how that synergy made the team better.

That's what my example with Bird and McHale was all about. No need to move the conversation into something it wasn't meant to be over positions played. Bird was a 3/4. McHale a 4/5. Tatum a 3/4. Brown a 2/3.  Now that that is settled, back to my point.

It doesn't matter who is better, it matters that they play in unison making themselves, each other and the team better by playing as a unit. They didn't do that almost all of last year. I blame Stevens. I hope Ime will make them do it this year.

[Ogaju]

Not sure why posters always want to try to make it a "who is better" competition with these two. Can't we have both a Bird and McHale? Two all-time greats that are different, with one better than the other, but both working in tandem to make the other even better.

Who cares who is better or will be better?

I love me some Jaylen, everyone here knows that, but I also love Jayson. Tatum is better, now and most likely in the future, though if Jaylen took some huge leap and became Kawhi like, that's not a bad thing.

What I want to see is them honing their skills into a two man machine that can make each other better and make a whole that is better than even their amazing parts.

Difference is Bird and McHale played different positions.

JB and JT are more similar, hence the comparisons will continue until one leaves the other in the dust.

Are you quite sure of that assessment?

Yes.

That wasn't true until 85-86 when Bird moved over to SF. He'd been the starting PF until then with McHale off the bench. Bird learned how to play alongside two bigs

What position did Bird play when McHale started? Yeah exactly.

By the way in today’s system JB and JT are ‘wings’.

[dannyboy35]

  I kinda hope Jaylen never does because all Tatum has to do is improve his hall handling.Then he’s not settling for being a great difficult shot maker. He’ll be the most unguardable player maybe in the league.
    But I love Jaylen snd thought he should have been the all star 2 years ago. I’d like to see Jaylen improve his defense. Everything in his offense just gets better each year. Although I dint know how much ball he’s been able to play this off season which is a real bummer.

[tarheelsxxiii]

They're very different players, both great in their own right.  No need to compare -- we need (and hopefully want) both for our next championship run and beyond.