Grant Williams: all hope lost?

[gouki88]

Work ethic and playing hard have never been problem areas for Grant Williams.

True, it’s just everything else.

If those are true, combined with him earning barely anything, then he's pretty obviously worth persevering with, right? 22 year-old 3rd year players with unquestionable work ethic are worth keeping

Agree. Nothing but positives for an end of the bench player.

Yes, Williams has his limits - I'm not one who thinks he should start, not close. But he could develop - at a low price and with a good attitude.

Exactly. The problem was our lack of depth resulting in him playing more than he should have. Grant is a fine 10th man

The problem is the talk that he's a "low price" player. He's actually quite costly to develop, at most he has one year to show it'd be worth it. If a trade opportunity comes along and you can use him in the package, you take it just because of that. If he were a 2nd rounder on a low price contract, then that'd be a different story.

You've said this before, but he only earns $2,617,800 this season. That is not expensive at all... currently 8 Celtics guaranteed to earn more than him

That's why I've allowed the flexibility for 1 more year at most and even that is a bit disingenuous. A 2.6M salary is quite a bit for a 10th player in the depth chart who's role is simply to develop in the end, and assuming is that high in depth chart as it is.

The problem comes with the 4,306,281 team option, and that's quite higher and costly. We have until October 31 to decide to pick-up his option, which will impact our ability in our potential free-agency in 2023. So if we don't pick it up, then he's an unrestricted free-agent at the end of this season... so why develop him? If we do pick-up the option, then there could be 2023 consequences, and beyond that it'll be a 6,235,494 qualifying offer if he remains through all that. Will that be offered? I highly doubt it unless he makes huge leaps in his game.

So I don't see it as a low price contract. I see it more as a Summer/Training Camp to see if you something have worthwhile and then either cut your loses then or go on a more expensive development path which could very have impact in potential free-agent targets in the following years.

By the same token it's salary which can be used for trades as opposed of not having tradable assets... But low price development I don't see.

His team option of $4.3 is what, 3.9% of the total cap?

[BudweiserCeltic]

Work ethic and playing hard have never been problem areas for Grant Williams.

True, it’s just everything else.

If those are true, combined with him earning barely anything, then he's pretty obviously worth persevering with, right? 22 year-old 3rd year players with unquestionable work ethic are worth keeping

Agree. Nothing but positives for an end of the bench player.

Yes, Williams has his limits - I'm not one who thinks he should start, not close. But he could develop - at a low price and with a good attitude.

Exactly. The problem was our lack of depth resulting in him playing more than he should have. Grant is a fine 10th man

The problem is the talk that he's a "low price" player. He's actually quite costly to develop, at most he has one year to show it'd be worth it. If a trade opportunity comes along and you can use him in the package, you take it just because of that. If he were a 2nd rounder on a low price contract, then that'd be a different story.

You've said this before, but he only earns $2,617,800 this season. That is not expensive at all... currently 8 Celtics guaranteed to earn more than him

That's why I've allowed the flexibility for 1 more year at most and even that is a bit disingenuous. A 2.6M salary is quite a bit for a 10th player in the depth chart who's role is simply to develop in the end, and assuming is that high in depth chart as it is.

The problem comes with the 4,306,281 team option, and that's quite higher and costly. We have until October 31 to decide to pick-up his option, which will impact our ability in our potential free-agency in 2023. So if we don't pick it up, then he's an unrestricted free-agent at the end of this season... so why develop him? If we do pick-up the option, then there could be 2023 consequences, and beyond that it'll be a 6,235,494 qualifying offer if he remains through all that. Will that be offered? I highly doubt it unless he makes huge leaps in his game.

So I don't see it as a low price contract. I see it more as a Summer/Training Camp to see if you something have worthwhile and then either cut your loses then or go on a more expensive development path which could very have impact in potential free-agent targets in the following years.

By the same token it's salary which can be used for trades as opposed of not having tradable assets... But low price development I don't see.

His team option of $4.3 is what, 3.9% of the total cap?

If you're trying to go after someone like Beal, to give an example, that's significant since we'll be pretty much forced to let go just about everyone and renounce rights to just about every free-agent we have and it'll still be tight.

Then if you're working above the cap, then things get a bit tighter with the wiggle room. Then it depends if we go after S&T targets, etc. and what role his salary will play in it... and how it'll affect the money we can use for MLE, etc. players.

[Boise To Boston]

Draymond moved like a shooting guard in his third year. Williams moves like a pulling guard.

I have lost all hope in him. Too much of a tweener PF/C. Not a true enough player at either the forward or center position.

The forward position has gotten smaller, quicker and more skilled and Grant Williams is simply too slow and limited in his perimeter skills to cope with it. Not good enough to be a starter or a key bench player. A below average 3rd stringer.

Then at the center spot you have Grant at 6-7 or whatever he is, can't jump, limited length. He just can't cope as a shot blocker. He is not a good enough rebounder. He can play sound one-on-one defense and good perimeter team defense and provide good team offense as a center but those other limitations mean he will forever be limited to a 3rd string status.

I wouldn't waste any more time or a valuable roster spot on Grant Williams. I've written him off.

Especially when Jabari Parker is taking up another valuable spot at backup PF and he cannot be depended on. We need someone we can depend on at backup PF!!

This is probably a fair assessment, but let’s not forget another undersized big who didn’t become an effective player until his third year in the league - Draymond Green! 

[Celtics2021]

Work ethic and playing hard have never been problem areas for Grant Williams.

True, it’s just everything else.

If those are true, combined with him earning barely anything, then he's pretty obviously worth persevering with, right? 22 year-old 3rd year players with unquestionable work ethic are worth keeping

Agree. Nothing but positives for an end of the bench player.

Yes, Williams has his limits - I'm not one who thinks he should start, not close. But he could develop - at a low price and with a good attitude.

Exactly. The problem was our lack of depth resulting in him playing more than he should have. Grant is a fine 10th man

The problem is the talk that he's a "low price" player. He's actually quite costly to develop, at most he has one year to show it'd be worth it. If a trade opportunity comes along and you can use him in the package, you take it just because of that. If he were a 2nd rounder on a low price contract, then that'd be a different story.

You've said this before, but he only earns $2,617,800 this season. That is not expensive at all... currently 8 Celtics guaranteed to earn more than him

That's why I've allowed the flexibility for 1 more year at most and even that is a bit disingenuous. A 2.6M salary is quite a bit for a 10th player in the depth chart who's role is simply to develop in the end, and assuming is that high in depth chart as it is.

The problem comes with the 4,306,281 team option, and that's quite higher and costly. We have until October 31 to decide to pick-up his option, which will impact our ability in our potential free-agency in 2023. So if we don't pick it up, then he's an unrestricted free-agent at the end of this season... so why develop him? If we do pick-up the option, then there could be 2023 consequences, and beyond that it'll be a 6,235,494 qualifying offer if he remains through all that. Will that be offered? I highly doubt it unless he makes huge leaps in his game.

So I don't see it as a low price contract. I see it more as a Summer/Training Camp to see if you something have worthwhile and then either cut your loses then or go on a more expensive development path which could very have impact in potential free-agent targets in the following years.

By the same token it's salary which can be used for trades as opposed of not having tradable assets... But low price development I don't see.

His team option of $4.3 is what, 3.9% of the total cap?

If you're trying to go after someone like Beal, to give an example, that's significant since we'll be pretty much forced to let go just about everyone and renounce rights to just about every free-agent we have and it'll still be tight.

Then if you're working above the cap, then things get a bit tighter with the wiggle room. Then it depends if we go after S&T targets, etc. and what role his salary will play in it... and how it'll affect the money we can use for MLE, etc. players.

If Beal wants to come to the Celtics next year, it will be via a sign-and-trade, and a $4.6 million salary isn’t going to get in the way of that.  Either he’s included in the sign-and-trade or he’s kept on the roster, but with an apron that should be over $155 million, it will not be in the way.

I’m not saying whether he deserves to have his option picked up or not, but it’s not going to cause a problem if it is.

[nickagneta]

The idea that a player drafted in the 20's, that will be making just $2.7 million in his third year, or about 2.4% of the salary cap  and under 2% of a team's total salary, is expensive is ludicrous. Even his 4th year salary isn't expensive, as the salary cap will probably be north of $120 million that year.

And his contract will in no way impede the Celtics from signing any free agents in the future. Brad can simply move him to a team at the cost of a second rounder. Heck, Danny had no problem moving Teague and Kanter, why would Stevens if he needed an extra $2.7-4.3 million to sign a free agent?

Expensive and impeding the team's ability to sign a major free agent will be Smart and Fournier's contracts if they are here long term.

Expensive is what Horford will be making next season.Expensive is what Kemba was last season for what he gave the team. Grant Williams' contract is anything but expensive.

[Rosco917]

On an NBA team with even an average bench, he's an inexpensive, 3rd string option in the front court.

It's not his fault the Celtics are forced to misuse him because of a lack of bench depth.

He is the least of this teams problems.

[gouki88]

Work ethic and playing hard have never been problem areas for Grant Williams.

True, it’s just everything else.

If those are true, combined with him earning barely anything, then he's pretty obviously worth persevering with, right? 22 year-old 3rd year players with unquestionable work ethic are worth keeping

Agree. Nothing but positives for an end of the bench player.

Yes, Williams has his limits - I'm not one who thinks he should start, not close. But he could develop - at a low price and with a good attitude.

Exactly. The problem was our lack of depth resulting in him playing more than he should have. Grant is a fine 10th man

The problem is the talk that he's a "low price" player. He's actually quite costly to develop, at most he has one year to show it'd be worth it. If a trade opportunity comes along and you can use him in the package, you take it just because of that. If he were a 2nd rounder on a low price contract, then that'd be a different story.

You've said this before, but he only earns $2,617,800 this season. That is not expensive at all... currently 8 Celtics guaranteed to earn more than him

That's why I've allowed the flexibility for 1 more year at most and even that is a bit disingenuous. A 2.6M salary is quite a bit for a 10th player in the depth chart who's role is simply to develop in the end, and assuming is that high in depth chart as it is.

The problem comes with the 4,306,281 team option, and that's quite higher and costly. We have until October 31 to decide to pick-up his option, which will impact our ability in our potential free-agency in 2023. So if we don't pick it up, then he's an unrestricted free-agent at the end of this season... so why develop him? If we do pick-up the option, then there could be 2023 consequences, and beyond that it'll be a 6,235,494 qualifying offer if he remains through all that. Will that be offered? I highly doubt it unless he makes huge leaps in his game.

So I don't see it as a low price contract. I see it more as a Summer/Training Camp to see if you something have worthwhile and then either cut your loses then or go on a more expensive development path which could very have impact in potential free-agent targets in the following years.

By the same token it's salary which can be used for trades as opposed of not having tradable assets... But low price development I don't see.

His team option of $4.3 is what, 3.9% of the total cap?

If you're trying to go after someone like Beal, to give an example, that's significant since we'll be pretty much forced to let go just about everyone and renounce rights to just about every free-agent we have and it'll still be tight.

Then if you're working above the cap, then things get a bit tighter with the wiggle room. Then it depends if we go after S&T targets, etc. and what role his salary will play in it... and how it'll affect the money we can use for MLE, etc. players.

That's not really correct, as Celtics2021 points out. His measly salary won't be stopping us from anything

[BudweiserCeltic]

Work ethic and playing hard have never been problem areas for Grant Williams.

True, it’s just everything else.

If those are true, combined with him earning barely anything, then he's pretty obviously worth persevering with, right? 22 year-old 3rd year players with unquestionable work ethic are worth keeping

Agree. Nothing but positives for an end of the bench player.

Yes, Williams has his limits - I'm not one who thinks he should start, not close. But he could develop - at a low price and with a good attitude.

Exactly. The problem was our lack of depth resulting in him playing more than he should have. Grant is a fine 10th man

The problem is the talk that he's a "low price" player. He's actually quite costly to develop, at most he has one year to show it'd be worth it. If a trade opportunity comes along and you can use him in the package, you take it just because of that. If he were a 2nd rounder on a low price contract, then that'd be a different story.

You've said this before, but he only earns $2,617,800 this season. That is not expensive at all... currently 8 Celtics guaranteed to earn more than him

That's why I've allowed the flexibility for 1 more year at most and even that is a bit disingenuous. A 2.6M salary is quite a bit for a 10th player in the depth chart who's role is simply to develop in the end, and assuming is that high in depth chart as it is.

The problem comes with the 4,306,281 team option, and that's quite higher and costly. We have until October 31 to decide to pick-up his option, which will impact our ability in our potential free-agency in 2023. So if we don't pick it up, then he's an unrestricted free-agent at the end of this season... so why develop him? If we do pick-up the option, then there could be 2023 consequences, and beyond that it'll be a 6,235,494 qualifying offer if he remains through all that. Will that be offered? I highly doubt it unless he makes huge leaps in his game.

So I don't see it as a low price contract. I see it more as a Summer/Training Camp to see if you something have worthwhile and then either cut your loses then or go on a more expensive development path which could very have impact in potential free-agent targets in the following years.

By the same token it's salary which can be used for trades as opposed of not having tradable assets... But low price development I don't see.

His team option of $4.3 is what, 3.9% of the total cap?

If you're trying to go after someone like Beal, to give an example, that's significant since we'll be pretty much forced to let go just about everyone and renounce rights to just about every free-agent we have and it'll still be tight.

Then if you're working above the cap, then things get a bit tighter with the wiggle room. Then it depends if we go after S&T targets, etc. and what role his salary will play in it... and how it'll affect the money we can use for MLE, etc. players.

If Beal wants to come to the Celtics next year, it will be via a sign-and-trade, and a $4.6 million salary isn’t going to get in the way of that.  Either he’s included in the sign-and-trade or he’s kept on the roster, but with an apron that should be over $155 million, it will not be in the way.

I’m not saying whether he deserves to have his option picked up or not, but it’s not going to cause a problem if it is.

At this point in time we don't know the route the Celtics will go with. A trade seems like the preferred path, but if it's via FA the salary will become an issue because he's not the only player we'd need to get rid of. As it stands right now we're looking at about $25M on "developing" players in 2022-2023, the huge chunk of that would have need to be committed before the 2022 FA period. It all adds up, with Grant being one of the lesser prospects from the bunch.

As for a S&T, it'll also depend on what the Wizards want in return. I mean, it was Hayward who wanted to go to the Pacers and with no trade path happening, he went to Charlotte.

And at no point have I said that his salary wouldn't be useful. I'm just saying it's not a "low price" development. It is costly, it does rob the team of other potential opportunities, like FA's looking for full MLE. I'd rather look for talent this off-season, maybe a S&T contributor and use Grant's salary in the trade, and along with it, if possible, still have the full MLE on hand, and if unused still, use the big TPE we still have. That's a lot of things I'd prefer to have than Grant (and other misc. players) around. Some he'd help bring over, others he'd contribute to make it difficult. I just see little future value with him as a development candidate.

But, until we see what we do with Smart and Fournier, we won't really know the likelihood of how we'll try to achieve whatever goals we may have. If we do nothing with Fournier, then Grant's salary would be inconsequential all told most probably, I'd rather keep Fournier and still have access to the full MLE this season for starters.

Over $155M apron seems very optimistic in 2022-2023, last numbers I've seen are around $146M apron.

I still think there's value on retaining Grant's contract, but only for trade purposes. I have no interest in keeping him and then trade him in a pure dump... if we get to the point that we have to dump him, chances are there are other players in the roster than would also need to get dumped and I'd rather not do that. But as mentioned, if a trade is available and including Grant's contract will make it happen, all the better for us.

But as far developing player, I don't see this as low price player for someone that isn't really contributing and has regressed... we're not talking about high ceiling player here to roll the dice on. He's projecting for end of bench guy at best so far, I rather use the money on other opportunities.

To put it more simple, I have no interest in dumping Grant for the sake of dumping him. I rather use him in a trade now, just not sure if it's wise to accept the team option going forward, but I'm also of mind that you need "assets" in order to make trades happen. Grant just so happens to be what we have in hand with few alternatives.

The idea that a player drafted in the 20's, that will be making just $2.7 million in his third year, or about 2.4% of the salary cap  and under 2% of a team's total salary, is expensive is ludicrous. Even his 4th year salary isn't expensive, as the salary cap will probably be north of $120 million that year.

And his contract will in no way impede the Celtics from signing any free agents in the future. Brad can simply move him to a team at the cost of a second rounder. Heck, Danny had no problem moving Teague and Kanter, why would Stevens if he needed an extra $2.7-4.3 million to sign a free agent?

Expensive and impeding the team's ability to sign a major free agent will be Smart and Fournier's contracts if they are here long term.

Expensive is what Horford will be making next season.Expensive is what Kemba was last season for what he gave the team. Grant Williams' contract is anything but expensive.

Those are players you're paying to contribute, they don't deserve to be in the same conversation. That's why the big chunk of the salary is used on them. The problem is when they don't meet the expectations OR when you have a lot non-contributors eating into your cap preventing you from getting more of said contributors. Thankfully trades are always an option and salaries are needed to make them happen.

As mentioned in my reply above, we have $25M on "developing" players in 2022-2023 (so far). That's quite a bit on players that don't bring much to the table... yet.

Let me put it this way, if we're a player in 2023 free-agency (it's not the way I want to go about it mind you), it's not $2.7-4.3 extra that we'd need. If it's S&T, having more players under contract should work in our favor for the most part. But I don't think we can keep viewing these players as "cheap" development pieces when they're barely developing or contributing.

[gouki88]

As mentioned in my reply above, we have $25M on "developing" players in 2022-2023 (so far). That's quite a bit on players that don't bring much to the table... yet.

They could very well not be "developing" by then. I think it's fair to bank on them contributing by then

[BudweiserCeltic]

As mentioned in my reply above, we have $25M on "developing" players in 2022-2023 (so far). That's quite a bit on players that don't bring much to the table... yet.

They could very well not be "developing" by then. I think it's fair to bank on them contributing by then

Yep, but I don't see Grant being one of them. Rob Williams is the one that hopefully is contributing steadily and healthier, probably he's either traded or extended by then. By that point I doubt we'll be playing the salary cap game, but I'll have to wait and see what they do with Smart and Fournier. I rather play the S&T game.

I'm very comfortable though with our main guys though, I think we could do well without doing big moves, and just consolidating some of our assets and going after good full MLE candidates in the following years.

I think we'd be well served with trading a package of Thompson, Carsen, Williams and have more flexibility with the full MLE. But I reiterate, I'm not looking to dump them, but looking for players that can help us now. But can't say much on what's best until we sort Fournier.

[Celtics4ever]

[/quote]
His defence regressed in 2020-21, as did every Celtics defence, but his rookie defensive stats were awesome - 2.2 DRaptor is really solid for a rookie.

Also, using one single play to try and disprove something isn't too genuine. He was our best defender of Adebayo in the ECF last season, by a wide margin.
[/quote]

It is also a little disingenuous to claim he is a good defender when he is not even remote close to being one.   He can't defend wings, he can't rim protect.  He lacks length, and can't leap well.   He played Bam decent, but Bam still killed us that series and you're acting like he was a Bam stopper, which he was not.   He had a ton of experience guarding him in the past and using one example of him defending one player  is just as bad if not worse than my one video posted.   The one guy, I thought he played decent last year was Jokic the one game, because it was slow on slow.

The bottom line is there is not a lot to develop there folks.  He is slow and unathletic, those things are not going to change.   He is not going to get taller.   He is already somewhat skilled and that leads me to this question; what exactly are you going to develop?   His shot is decent.   He can pass now.  I doubt he can develop a good post game as he is a shot block waiting to happen with his length and lack of lift.

What has to change is his effort.   He needs to play "hard"  all the time or he is not going to make it in this league.   He simply does not bring a lot to the table.  Hopefully, he understands this and works his tail off and turns things around.   It is possible, though not likely, I believe but he has to accept his limitations and embrace his strengths.  Use his strength to bang and be physical. Hopefully Coach Udoke can help him this regard as he was a journeyman player who made it.

The 2019 draft was not Danny's finest draft as a GM.  Romeo the jury is still out.  We should have kept     Matisse Thybulle and passed on Grant and this would have saved us from taking Carsen Edwards.