Identify perfect fits for Tatum and Brown

[nickagneta]

I think the perfect PG for this team would be Chris Paul, but that's not happening.

I think Robert Covington would be an amazing big wing to play alongside the two Jays if you have someone like CP3 as the PG. Notice both would be complimentary to the Jays and wouldn't take large amounts of shots from them.

Then to finish off the team I would go with Domantas Sabonis. Guy can hoover rebounds, is an exceptional passer in the front court. A guy that doesn't have to be the main scorer in an offense but can drop 30 once every 10 games or so, if needed. I also think in time, Sabonis learns to stretch the floor.

Chris Paul
Jaylen Brown
Jayson Tatum
Robert Covington
Domantas Sabonis

[SHAQATTACK]

cP3 would be a natural fit ,  he just hates being on east coast even though he is from NC.   

But it’s a new setup in Boston today , maybe he d be more open minded than years past .

[Who]

The role Nate Archibald played for the Celtics in the early 80s is the type of PG I would the Jays to have.

I do not believe the Jays provide enough passing and playmaking to play without another playmaker in the lineup. Horford and Smart are more facilitators than playmakers (enable ball movement rather than creative playmaking). The Jays need another playmaker whether that is a big (Jokic is probably the only one), a wing (like Hayward) or a PG (easiest to find).

I want a PG who is happy as the 3rd or 4th option on offense. Who will create easy offense for the team by pushing the ball in transition creating transition opportunities & by driving the ball into the heart of the defense forcing defenses to collapse creating easy opportunities in the halfcourt.

That is what I want. It does not have to be high volume creation (like CP3) but it does need be there. I worry about having a PG who does only one (transition but not halfcourt - Lonzo) or neither (Smart) of these things.

Cameron Payne could be a genuine possibility to provide these qualities.

[Jvalin]

You know I was thinking as I read this "what I would really like is quick PG who pushes the ball in transition, can drive in the halfcourt offense, hit open jump-shots and is not selfish". Does not need to be a star. Just someone who does the little things.

And then I was thinking about what PGs might fit that mold and it was depressing how few PGs I could think of. Most PGs are either score first and/or ball-dominant or defensive PGs who are limited offensively.

And I was looking at this list of PGs and one name stood out - Mike Conley - and I was longingly looking at Mike Conley for his sound decision making an all-around PG play on both ends of the court. Then looking at the rest of the PG list and wondering why so few of others had his skill-set when I came across one other name -- the man of the moment, Cameron Payne.

- Doesn't shoot too much.
- Is very quick. Pushes the ball hard. Can drive in the halfcourt.
- He has been shooting well this season but not in the past so some concerns about whether he will maintain this year's shooting but looks like he could be a solid shooter.
- works reasonably hard on D. Does fine for a small PG.
- sound decision maker.

And I am thinking myself, have I been overlooking / undervaluing that proposed idea of going after Cameron Payne this summer with the MLE ... and I think I have.

He could be really good for this team. A true PG.

Payne may be short, but he isn't necessarily "small" thanks to his impressive wingspan. Based on his combine measurements, he stands at 6' 0.75'' without shoes and he has a 6' 7.25'' wingspan.

I'm intrigued by Payne too. Haven't watched him a whole lot, but his advanced stats suggest he's a starting-caliber PG. Don't think he has pass-first mentality though. If we somehow go after a pass-first player at a different position (for instance, Kyle Anderson, Ben Simmons, Draymond Green, you name it), I'd love us to use the MLE on Payne.

The Jays need another playmaker whether that is a big (Jokic is probably the only one)

Bam and Simmons come to mind as well. Unlike Jokic, Bam would fit our system on both sides of the ball. Imo, the same goes for Simmons, but that's probably a controversial take. Obviously, Bam and Jokic are untouchable. I guess you could count Draymond as a big too? Per cleaningtheglass.com, he played 44% of his minutes at C this season.

[RodyTur10]

Imo, Tatum is at his best when playing at the 4. Traditional 4s aren't explosive enough to stay in front of him on the perimeter. This is a massive advantage in our favour, especially since Tatum can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot.

Likewise, imo Brown is at his best when playing at the 2. He's mobile enough to stay in front of explosive guards on defense. At the same time, he's taller than most SGs, hence he can shoot over them or take them to the basket.

Generally speaking, the C's are built around two switchable wings in Tatum and Brown. We wanna maximize their effectiveness on both sides of the ball, hence we run a switch-heavy defensive scheme. With this in mind, here's what I'd be looking for.

PG: Oversized, pass-first PG who's happy to play off the ball on offense. For instance, Cade Cunningham, Lonzo, Brogdon, Jrue Holiday, Satoransky, prime George Hill. Smart fits the bill as well. Not exactly a pass-first player, but he's a willing passer, that's for sure.

SG: Brown

SF: 3+D swing. For instance, OG Anunoby, Joe Ingles, De'Andre Hunter, Otto Porter Jr. Alternatively, a Point Forward. For instance, Hayward, Middleton, Kawhi (he can do everything, literally the perfect fit), Kyle Anderson, Joe Ingles (fits both descriptions), Harrison Barnes (not exactly a Point Forward, but certainly an above average passer for a swing), Tobias Harris (again, above average passer). Theoretically, Fournier is expected to fill this role. Personally speaking, I don't like his defense.

PF: Tatum

C: Tatum scores plenty of his points out of the PnR. We need an elite screener to set him up on offense. Ideally, an elite roller/popper as well. We also need a switchable big who can play D on the perimeter. Some names that come to mind: Bam Adebayo, Christian Wood, Ben Simmons (yes, at Center), Jarrett Allen, Clint Capela, Richaun Holmes, Daniel Theis, Khem Birch, Onyeka Okongwu, prime Horford, prime Ibaka.

If we look intern then possibly we already have exactly what we need:

PG: Smart (oversized, with good defense and passing)
SF: Nesmith (offball player, good shooter, good defense)
C: Timelord (passing, rimroller, rim protection)

+ bench:

Pritchard (shooting, natural point guard)
Langford (defensive specialist)
Fournier (offensive wing with shooting)
Horford (allrounder with experience)

[Jvalin]

Imo, Tatum is at his best when playing at the 4. Traditional 4s aren't explosive enough to stay in front of him on the perimeter. This is a massive advantage in our favour, especially since Tatum can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot.

Likewise, imo Brown is at his best when playing at the 2. He's mobile enough to stay in front of explosive guards on defense. At the same time, he's taller than most SGs, hence he can shoot over them or take them to the basket.

Generally speaking, the C's are built around two switchable wings in Tatum and Brown. We wanna maximize their effectiveness on both sides of the ball, hence we run a switch-heavy defensive scheme. With this in mind, here's what I'd be looking for.

PG: Oversized, pass-first PG who's happy to play off the ball on offense. For instance, Cade Cunningham, Lonzo, Brogdon, Jrue Holiday, Satoransky, prime George Hill. Smart fits the bill as well. Not exactly a pass-first player, but he's a willing passer, that's for sure.

SG: Brown

SF: 3+D swing. For instance, OG Anunoby, Joe Ingles, De'Andre Hunter, Otto Porter Jr. Alternatively, a Point Forward. For instance, Hayward, Middleton, Kawhi (he can do everything, literally the perfect fit), Kyle Anderson, Joe Ingles (fits both descriptions), Harrison Barnes (not exactly a Point Forward, but certainly an above average passer for a swing), Tobias Harris (again, above average passer). Theoretically, Fournier is expected to fill this role. Personally speaking, I don't like his defense.

PF: Tatum

C: Tatum scores plenty of his points out of the PnR. We need an elite screener to set him up on offense. Ideally, an elite roller/popper as well. We also need a switchable big who can play D on the perimeter. Some names that come to mind: Bam Adebayo, Christian Wood, Ben Simmons (yes, at Center), Jarrett Allen, Clint Capela, Richaun Holmes, Daniel Theis, Khem Birch, Onyeka Okongwu, prime Horford, prime Ibaka.

If we look intern then possibly we already have exactly what we need:

PG: Smart (oversized, with good defense and passing)
SF: Nesmith (offball player, good shooter, good defense)
C: Timelord (passing, rimroller, rim protection)

+ bench:

Pritchard (shooting, natural point guard)
Langford (defensive specialist)
Fournier (offensive wing with shooting)
Horford (allrounder with experience)

My only objection would be Timelord. I fully realize this is an unpopular opinion, but imo he's a bad fit in our defensive system. The way our PnR defense usually worked under CBS, our Center met the opposing ball handler at the level of dribble hand off and denied penetration. Obviously, Timelord is a terrific rim protector. That said, he ain't got the lateral quicks to switch ball screens on the perimeter, hence he drops back and protects the rim. To put it another way, whenever he was on the court, we had to change our defensive system. If you ask me, this is the #1 reason we were starting Theis prior to the trade deadline. In a vacuum, Timelord was our best big man.

[chicagoceltic]

Imo, Tatum is at his best when playing at the 4. Traditional 4s aren't explosive enough to stay in front of him on the perimeter. This is a massive advantage in our favour, especially since Tatum can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot.

Likewise, imo Brown is at his best when playing at the 2. He's mobile enough to stay in front of explosive guards on defense. At the same time, he's taller than most SGs, hence he can shoot over them or take them to the basket.

Generally speaking, the C's are built around two switchable wings in Tatum and Brown. We wanna maximize their effectiveness on both sides of the ball, hence we run a switch-heavy defensive scheme. With this in mind, here's what I'd be looking for.

PG: Oversized, pass-first PG who's happy to play off the ball on offense. For instance, Cade Cunningham, Lonzo, Brogdon, Jrue Holiday, Satoransky, prime George Hill. Smart fits the bill as well. Not exactly a pass-first player, but he's a willing passer, that's for sure.

SG: Brown

SF: 3+D swing. For instance, OG Anunoby, Joe Ingles, De'Andre Hunter, Otto Porter Jr. Alternatively, a Point Forward. For instance, Hayward, Middleton, Kawhi (he can do everything, literally the perfect fit), Kyle Anderson, Joe Ingles (fits both descriptions), Harrison Barnes (not exactly a Point Forward, but certainly an above average passer for a swing), Tobias Harris (again, above average passer). Theoretically, Fournier is expected to fill this role. Personally speaking, I don't like his defense.

PF: Tatum

C: Tatum scores plenty of his points out of the PnR. We need an elite screener to set him up on offense. Ideally, an elite roller/popper as well. We also need a switchable big who can play D on the perimeter. Some names that come to mind: Bam Adebayo, Christian Wood, Ben Simmons (yes, at Center), Jarrett Allen, Clint Capela, Richaun Holmes, Daniel Theis, Khem Birch, Onyeka Okongwu, prime Horford, prime Ibaka.

If we look intern then possibly we already have exactly what we need:

PG: Smart (oversized, with good defense and passing)
SF: Nesmith (offball player, good shooter, good defense)
C: Timelord (passing, rimroller, rim protection)

+ bench:

Pritchard (shooting, natural point guard)
Langford (defensive specialist)
Fournier (offensive wing with shooting)
Horford (allrounder with experience)

My only objection would be Timelord. I fully realize this is an unpopular opinion, but imo he's a bad fit in our defensive system. The way our PnR defense usually worked under CBS, our Center met the opposing ball handler at the level of dribble hand off and denied penetration. Obviously, Timelord is a terrific rim protector. That said he ain't mobile enough to switch ball screens on the perimeter, hence he drops back and protects the rim. To put it another way, whenever he was on the court, we had to change our defensive system. If you ask me, this is the #1 reason we were starting Theis prior to the trade deadline. In a vacuum, Timelord was our best big man.

Our defense may work differently under a new coach...

[BudweiserCeltic]

The role Nate Archibald played for the Celtics in the early 80s is the type of PG I would the Jays to have.

I do not believe the Jays provide enough passing and playmaking to play without another playmaker in the lineup. Horford and Smart are more facilitators than playmakers (enable ball movement rather than creative playmaking). The Jays need another playmaker whether that is a big (Jokic is probably the only one), a wing (like Hayward) or a PG (easiest to find).

I want a PG who is happy as the 3rd or 4th option on offense. Who will create easy offense for the team by pushing the ball in transition creating transition opportunities & by driving the ball into the heart of the defense forcing defenses to collapse creating easy opportunities in the halfcourt.

That is what I want. It does not have to be high volume creation (like CP3) but it does need be there. I worry about having a PG who does only one (transition but not halfcourt - Lonzo) or neither (Smart) of these things.

Cameron Payne could be a genuine possibility to provide these qualities.

I think someone's going to give Payne more than the MLE, Playoff performance + youth dictates so... he's a couple of years older than Rozier back then, and Rozier managed a $19M per contract... so I think there's always one team out there willing to pay. But we'll see.

[Jvalin]

Imo, Tatum is at his best when playing at the 4. Traditional 4s aren't explosive enough to stay in front of him on the perimeter. This is a massive advantage in our favour, especially since Tatum can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot.

Likewise, imo Brown is at his best when playing at the 2. He's mobile enough to stay in front of explosive guards on defense. At the same time, he's taller than most SGs, hence he can shoot over them or take them to the basket.

Generally speaking, the C's are built around two switchable wings in Tatum and Brown. We wanna maximize their effectiveness on both sides of the ball, hence we run a switch-heavy defensive scheme. With this in mind, here's what I'd be looking for.

PG: Oversized, pass-first PG who's happy to play off the ball on offense. For instance, Cade Cunningham, Lonzo, Brogdon, Jrue Holiday, Satoransky, prime George Hill. Smart fits the bill as well. Not exactly a pass-first player, but he's a willing passer, that's for sure.

SG: Brown

SF: 3+D swing. For instance, OG Anunoby, Joe Ingles, De'Andre Hunter, Otto Porter Jr. Alternatively, a Point Forward. For instance, Hayward, Middleton, Kawhi (he can do everything, literally the perfect fit), Kyle Anderson, Joe Ingles (fits both descriptions), Harrison Barnes (not exactly a Point Forward, but certainly an above average passer for a swing), Tobias Harris (again, above average passer). Theoretically, Fournier is expected to fill this role. Personally speaking, I don't like his defense.

PF: Tatum

C: Tatum scores plenty of his points out of the PnR. We need an elite screener to set him up on offense. Ideally, an elite roller/popper as well. We also need a switchable big who can play D on the perimeter. Some names that come to mind: Bam Adebayo, Christian Wood, Ben Simmons (yes, at Center), Jarrett Allen, Clint Capela, Richaun Holmes, Daniel Theis, Khem Birch, Onyeka Okongwu, prime Horford, prime Ibaka.

If we look intern then possibly we already have exactly what we need:

PG: Smart (oversized, with good defense and passing)
SF: Nesmith (offball player, good shooter, good defense)
C: Timelord (passing, rimroller, rim protection)

+ bench:

Pritchard (shooting, natural point guard)
Langford (defensive specialist)
Fournier (offensive wing with shooting)
Horford (allrounder with experience)

My only objection would be Timelord. I fully realize this is an unpopular opinion, but imo he's a bad fit in our defensive system. The way our PnR defense usually worked under CBS, our Center met the opposing ball handler at the level of dribble hand off and denied penetration. Obviously, Timelord is a terrific rim protector. That said he ain't mobile enough to switch ball screens on the perimeter, hence he drops back and protects the rim. To put it another way, whenever he was on the court, we had to change our defensive system. If you ask me, this is the #1 reason we were starting Theis prior to the trade deadline. In a vacuum, Timelord was our best big man.

Our defense may work differently under a new coach...

Thing is, we run a switch-heavy defensive scheme for a reason. Again, the Celtics are built around two switchable/versatile wings in Tatum and Brown. We wanna maximize their effectiveness on both sides of the ball, hence we run a switch-heavy defensive scheme. Don't think it would be wise on our part to change our defensive philosophy.

[gouki88]

Excluding obvious star players like Jokic & Kawhi. 

PG: Brogdon / Holiday / Conley / Lonzo / Dejounte Murray / Brunson / Melton
Someone who has versatility. Most of these guys are ++ defenders, and those who aren’t (Brogdon & Brunson) are insanely efficient scorers. Ideally someone who can defend multiple guard spots, keeps the ball moving and can score in some way.

SG: Haliburton / Beasley / Hardaway Jr. / Bogdanovic (Atlanta)
Guys that stretch the floor, have some length or in Beasley’s case can straight up score.

SF: Brown

PF: Tatum

C: Valanciunas / Plumlee / Ayton / Poeltl / Gafford
I want these guys for a number of different reasons. Toughness and rebounding (Valanciunas, Ayton), passing (Plumlee), defence (Poeltl, Gafford). Just different guys I like really.

An ideal-world realistic lineup:
Conley - Haliburton - Brown - Tatum - Plumlee

Floor-spacing, passing, scoring, defence. Got it all!

[gouki88]

Imo, Tatum is at his best when playing at the 4. Traditional 4s aren't explosive enough to stay in front of him on the perimeter. This is a massive advantage in our favour, especially since Tatum can put the ball on the floor and create his own shot.

Likewise, imo Brown is at his best when playing at the 2. He's mobile enough to stay in front of explosive guards on defense. At the same time, he's taller than most SGs, hence he can shoot over them or take them to the basket.

Generally speaking, the C's are built around two switchable wings in Tatum and Brown. We wanna maximize their effectiveness on both sides of the ball, hence we run a switch-heavy defensive scheme. With this in mind, here's what I'd be looking for.

PG: Oversized, pass-first PG who's happy to play off the ball on offense. For instance, Cade Cunningham, Lonzo, Brogdon, Jrue Holiday, Satoransky, prime George Hill. Smart fits the bill as well. Not exactly a pass-first player, but he's a willing passer, that's for sure.

SG: Brown

SF: 3+D swing. For instance, OG Anunoby, Joe Ingles, De'Andre Hunter, Otto Porter Jr. Alternatively, a Point Forward. For instance, Hayward, Middleton, Kawhi (he can do everything, literally the perfect fit), Kyle Anderson, Joe Ingles (fits both descriptions), Harrison Barnes (not exactly a Point Forward, but certainly an above average passer for a swing), Tobias Harris (again, above average passer). Theoretically, Fournier is expected to fill this role. Personally speaking, I don't like his defense.

PF: Tatum

C: Tatum scores plenty of his points out of the PnR. We need an elite screener to set him up on offense. Ideally, an elite roller/popper as well. We also need a switchable big who can play D on the perimeter. Some names that come to mind: Bam Adebayo, Christian Wood, Ben Simmons (yes, at Center), Jarrett Allen, Clint Capela, Richaun Holmes, Daniel Theis, Khem Birch, Onyeka Okongwu, prime Horford, prime Ibaka.

If we look intern then possibly we already have exactly what we need:

PG: Smart (oversized, with good defense and passing)
SF: Nesmith (offball player, good shooter, good defense)
C: Timelord (passing, rimroller, rim protection)

+ bench:

Pritchard (shooting, natural point guard)
Langford (defensive specialist)
Fournier (offensive wing with shooting)
Horford (allrounder with experience)

My only objection would be Timelord. I fully realize this is an unpopular opinion, but imo he's a bad fit in our defensive system. The way our PnR defense usually worked under CBS, our Center met the opposing ball handler at the level of dribble hand off and denied penetration. Obviously, Timelord is a terrific rim protector. That said he ain't mobile enough to switch ball screens on the perimeter, hence he drops back and protects the rim. To put it another way, whenever he was on the court, we had to change our defensive system. If you ask me, this is the #1 reason we were starting Theis prior to the trade deadline. In a vacuum, Timelord was our best big man.

Our defense may work differently under a new coach...

Thing is, we run a switch-heavy defensive scheme for a reason. Again, the Celtics are built around two switchable/versatile wings in Tatum and Brown. We wanna maximize their effectiveness on both sides of the ball, hence we run a switch-heavy defensive scheme. Don't think it would be wise on our part to change our defensive philosophy.

That was Coach Stevens’ philosophy. We have no idea whether Udoka is the same

[Who]

I have always been fond of defensive setups where you can switch 1-4 if you have a big PG and a quick footed PF but to stay home at the 5 spot. Keep your center on the opposing big so that your main shot-blocker is at the rim to contest shots and to grab rebounds.

It was one of the things I liked so much about the second three-beat Chicago Bulls with Ron Harper at PG and Dennis Rodman at PF next to Pippen and Jordan. Four guys all around the same size who could switch seamlessly when required. Then Longley who couldn't switch onto anybody.

The 80s Lakers were another example with Magic and Cooper in the backcourt, Worthy and AC Green in the frontcourt. AC Green was so versatile defensively with that speed. Kareem, again the center, could not switch onto anybody. Old man Kareem at this stage. So he always stayed home.

[blink]

I think Brogdon is literally perfect for them, he's available but not sure what Indy would want from us

Does anyone have any info saying that Brogdon is available?  I only read that they were trying to trade him for Simmons.  Are they trying to ship him out in general?
I like him as a player with the J's as well, but I am not as well read as some of you on here.  Why is Indiana looking to move him?  I thought he had a pretty good season there...

[Jvalin]

I have always been fond of defensive setups where you can switch 1-4 if you have a big PG and a quick footed PF but to stay home at the 5 spot. Keep your center on the opposing big so that your main shot-blocker is at the rim to contest shots and to grab rebounds.

It was one of the things I liked so much about the second three-beat Chicago Bulls with Ron Harper at PG and Dennis Rodman at PF next to Pippen and Jordan. Four guys all around the same size who could switch seamlessly when required. Then Longley who couldn't switch onto anybody.

The 80s Lakers were another example with Magic and Cooper in the backcourt, Worthy and AC Green in the frontcourt. AC Green was so versatile defensively with that speed. Kareem, again the center, could not switch onto anybody. Old man Kareem at this stage. So he always stayed home.

Difference is, Longley and Kareem didn't have to guard stretch bigs on the perimeter. This ain't the case in today's NBA. The game has come a long way since the 80's and the 90's.

[RockinRyA]

I have always been fond of defensive setups where you can switch 1-4 if you have a big PG and a quick footed PF but to stay home at the 5 spot. Keep your center on the opposing big so that your main shot-blocker is at the rim to contest shots and to grab rebounds.

It was one of the things I liked so much about the second three-beat Chicago Bulls with Ron Harper at PG and Dennis Rodman at PF next to Pippen and Jordan. Four guys all around the same size who could switch seamlessly when required. Then Longley who couldn't switch onto anybody.

The 80s Lakers were another example with Magic and Cooper in the backcourt, Worthy and AC Green in the frontcourt. AC Green was so versatile defensively with that speed. Kareem, again the center, could not switch onto anybody. Old man Kareem at this stage. So he always stayed home.

Difference is, Longley and Kareem didn't have to guard stretch bigs on the perimeter. This ain't the case in today's NBA. The game has come a long way since the 80's and the 90's.

Yes we have to adapt to how the game is played, and also adjust our personnel accordingly.

I always thought we were at our best when we have Smart at the 1 and 3 wings plus a switchable big. Sadly injuries and hayward's departure we lost that this year