Author Topic: Dame Wants Out?  (Read 12619 times)

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Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2021, 12:35:07 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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no to giving up 23 year old all star Jaylen Brown for a 31 year old....

Not only that, but Lillard is making nearly $44m next season and the last year of his contract, at age 35, he will be making $54m!
Pass...

He's also a 6-time all star, averaged > 25 PPG for like the past 6 seasons, averaged 35 PPG in the playoffs, is one of the deadliest three point shooters in the NBA, is one of the most clutch scorers in the NBA, and plays a position that the Celtics desperately could use an upgrade at.

In the NBA as it is right now - pretty much wide open in both conferences - Lillard is exactly the type of guy that could put this Celtics squad over the top.  With his endless range and clutch scoring ability he's exactly the type of guy who could bring banner #18 to Boston. 

You want a 3-4 years of legit championship runs, or do you want 7-8 years of struggling to make the ECF?  Seems like a no brainer to me.

Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2021, 12:40:37 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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JB for Lillard still feels like an incomplete move. We still need a 3rd star or fringe star. Granted, I don’t think we can keep JB and land Lillard so I’m ok giving JB up in that sense, but we need a 3rd star who won’t need the ball that often. Can that be Smart? Maybe. But I’m not convinced.

KD-Harden-Kyrie
Giannis-Middleton-Jrue
Embiid-Simmons-Harris

This is your competition right now. Tatum-Lillard-Smart… does this sound like a championship core that can beat those guys? I mean, it could be…

Is that even a question? 

If Brad can find a way to bring Fournier back then I would put Lillard / Tatum / Fournier / Horford up against any one of those teams ANY day. 

KD, Harden and Kyrie are dysfunctional
Middleton and Jrue aren't even All-Stars (and Middleton constantly vanishes for long stretches)
Embiid is always injured, Simmons is extremely easy to gameplan against, and Harris isn't really much (if any) better then Fournier

Tatum on his own can go toe-to-toe with pretty much any person on that list, and if Lillard came here he'd be the SECOND best player on the team.

Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2021, 12:56:36 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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Dame is going to be 31 in about two weeks. I understand the desire to have all that talent, but in no way do I want to give up on one of the Js to chase him.

This mentality is the precise Danny Ainge mentality that has led to this team never being a legit contender since the big 3 era ended.   The "I'd rather 7 years of being kinda good then 3-4 years of having a legit title chance" mentality.

I would add, we’ve had three undersized score-first PGs recently. IT, Kyrie, and Kemba. I’m ready for a pass-first PG who can play defense and help the Js as they come into their prime. They haven’t peaked yet.

It took us to the ECF at a time when we did not have a second star, and got injured before the series ended.

Kyrie is a head case, had massive locker room drama, and got injured at key points in the playoffs.

Kemba was never really 100% healthy his entire time here.

We havent gotten over the top with score first PGs recently, but its not because of their lack of talent or ability to impact winning.  It's because of the lack of talent around them and/or the fact that they got injured at key points in playoff runs.

Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2021, 01:12:30 AM »

Offline makaveli

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It is pretty clear that Brown and Tatum are cornerstones and will be build around.
Brown is on one of the best contracts in the nba and so will be tatum, throw smart right there with them.
I feel like nothing urgent has to be made right now. We have Timelord and Pritchard with a year of experience, our rotatio looks solid if we get fournier back. I do expect a busy all star trade deadline tho.
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Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2021, 02:06:15 AM »

Offline LilRip

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JB for Lillard still feels like an incomplete move. We still need a 3rd star or fringe star. Granted, I don’t think we can keep JB and land Lillard so I’m ok giving JB up in that sense, but we need a 3rd star who won’t need the ball that often. Can that be Smart? Maybe. But I’m not convinced.

KD-Harden-Kyrie
Giannis-Middleton-Jrue
Embiid-Simmons-Harris

This is your competition right now. Tatum-Lillard-Smart… does this sound like a championship core that can beat those guys? I mean, it could be…

Is that even a question? 

If Brad can find a way to bring Fournier back then I would put Lillard / Tatum / Fournier / Horford up against any one of those teams ANY day. 

KD, Harden and Kyrie are dysfunctional
Middleton and Jrue aren't even All-Stars (and Middleton constantly vanishes for long stretches)
Embiid is always injured, Simmons is extremely easy to gameplan against, and Harris isn't really much (if any) better then Fournier

Tatum on his own can go toe-to-toe with pretty much any person on that list, and if Lillard came here he'd be the SECOND best player on the team.

Either you’re a huge fan of Fournier or I’m missing something here. Fournier is like Bruce Brown for me. Good role player, can have an impact on the floor, but ultimately replaceable on a contender.

And how are the Nets trio dysfunctional? They seemed to function fine when beating us and I don’t think Milwaukee wins the series if all 3 were healthy. Among the teams I listed, the Sixers seem the most beatable mainly because of how poorly Simmons plays.

Lastly, Tatum arguably didn’t even make all-NBA this year (he could’ve been 3rd team if we didn’t have position restrictions) but Dame led 2nd team (and could’ve been 1st team if we didn’t have those position restrictions). I’m not sure Dame comes in as the 2nd best player.

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Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2021, 04:09:50 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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Either you’re a huge fan of Fournier or I’m missing something here. Fournier is like Bruce Brown for me. Good role player, can have an impact on the floor, but ultimately replaceable on a contender.

Interestingly that's exactly how I would describe Tobias Harris and Jrue Holiday.  Good role players who can have an impact on the floor, but ultimately replacable on a contender.

It's also how I would describe guys like Steve Kerr, Bruce Bowen, Robert Horry and Andre Iguodala in his later years with GS.  These guys were all impact role players, yet played crucial roles in helping thier teams win championships.

Sometimes having the right role players giving you the right impact in the right roles can be the difference between getting knocked out in the conference semis vs winning a championship ring.     

Is Jrue Holiday better overall then Fournier?  Sure, I'll say he is a noteworthy step up.  But Tatum is also a far better player then Middleton right now, and come playoff time I'm not convinced Giannis has the advantage over Lillard.  Game 7 against the Sixers, Gainnis was completely invisible for the last 6 minutes or so of the game.  Everything was going through Jrue and Middleton. I think you could have taken Giannis off the court and it wouldn't have even noticed he was gone.  When you're in a close game in a tight playoff series and it comes down to clutch time - I honestly think I'd rather have Lillard on my team with the ball then Giannis. 

And how are the Nets trio dysfunctional? They seemed to function fine when beating us and I don’t think Milwaukee wins the series if all 3 were healthy. Among the teams I listed, the Sixers seem the most beatable mainly because of how poorly Simmons plays.

We had an absolutely horrible year, barely made the playoffs, were without out 2nd best player the entire series (and our 3rd best player for multiple games too).  What part of  "they beat us" is impressive?

Also the "if all 3 were healthy" is part of the disfunction.  Kyrie misses a ton of games every year, and this year he missed a bunch of them without even having a medical issue - just decided he didn't care enough to play.  then in the playoffs he got injured again - which seems to be almost an annual occurance at this point.  And it was his first year there, as the biggest head case in the NBA.  God only knows what antics he might throw next season.

Lastly, Tatum arguably didn’t even make all-NBA this year (he could’ve been 3rd team if we didn’t have position restrictions) but Dame led 2nd team (and could’ve been 1st team if we didn’t have those position restrictions). I’m not sure Dame comes in as the 2nd best player.

Sorry, I meant that Tatum (as our second best player) is capable of going toe-to-toe with pretty much anybody on that list.  Not that Lillard would be our second best player.  Vague wording on my part. 

Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #66 on: June 28, 2021, 06:38:18 AM »

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Dame 31 and old some ppl are saying on here which is ridiculous..I take Dame right now over anyone on Celtics team except Tatum…I trade Brown and Smart for Dame & Covington in a heartbeat
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Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #67 on: June 28, 2021, 06:40:00 AM »

Online Birdman

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I don’t want Miami, 76ers or Knicks to get him which one of them will
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2021, 06:57:01 AM »

Offline Moranis

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JB for Lillard still feels like an incomplete move. We still need a 3rd star or fringe star. Granted, I don’t think we can keep JB and land Lillard so I’m ok giving JB up in that sense, but we need a 3rd star who won’t need the ball that often. Can that be Smart? Maybe. But I’m not convinced.

KD-Harden-Kyrie
Giannis-Middleton-Jrue
Embiid-Simmons-Harris

This is your competition right now. Tatum-Lillard-Smart… does this sound like a championship core that can beat those guys? I mean, it could be…

Is that even a question? 

If Brad can find a way to bring Fournier back then I would put Lillard / Tatum / Fournier / Horford up against any one of those teams ANY day. 

KD, Harden and Kyrie are dysfunctional
Middleton and Jrue aren't even All-Stars (and Middleton constantly vanishes for long stretches)
Embiid is always injured, Simmons is extremely easy to gameplan against, and Harris isn't really much (if any) better then Fournier

Tatum on his own can go toe-to-toe with pretty much any person on that list, and if Lillard came here he'd be the SECOND best player on the team.
In that scenario (i.e. trade Brown for Lillard), then if Lillard is the best player on the Celtics, then the Celtics aren't really contenders (they could have a weird string of luck like the Suns did this year, but not something you could pencil in consistently).  Tatum has to be the best player on the team or Boston isn't going to be a contender, because Lillard isn't really good enough as the #1 guy to compete with the best teams in the conference.   
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Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2021, 07:03:43 AM »

Offline LilRip

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Either you’re a huge fan of Fournier or I’m missing something here. Fournier is like Bruce Brown for me. Good role player, can have an impact on the floor, but ultimately replaceable on a contender.

Interestingly that's exactly how I would describe Tobias Harris and Jrue Holiday.  Good role players who can have an impact on the floor, but ultimately replacable on a contender.

It's also how I would describe guys like Steve Kerr, Bruce Bowen, Robert Horry and Andre Iguodala in his later years with GS.  These guys were all impact role players, yet played crucial roles in helping thier teams win championships.

Sometimes having the right role players giving you the right impact in the right roles can be the difference between getting knocked out in the conference semis vs winning a championship ring.     

Is Jrue Holiday better overall then Fournier?  Sure, I'll say he is a noteworthy step up.  But Tatum is also a far better player then Middleton right now, and come playoff time I'm not convinced Giannis has the advantage over Lillard.  Game 7 against the Sixers, Gainnis was completely invisible for the last 6 minutes or so of the game.  Everything was going through Jrue and Middleton. I think you could have taken Giannis off the court and it wouldn't have even noticed he was gone.  When you're in a close game in a tight playoff series and it comes down to clutch time - I honestly think I'd rather have Lillard on my team with the ball then Giannis. 

And how are the Nets trio dysfunctional? They seemed to function fine when beating us and I don’t think Milwaukee wins the series if all 3 were healthy. Among the teams I listed, the Sixers seem the most beatable mainly because of how poorly Simmons plays.

We had an absolutely horrible year, barely made the playoffs, were without out 2nd best player the entire series (and our 3rd best player for multiple games too).  What part of  "they beat us" is impressive?

Also the "if all 3 were healthy" is part of the disfunction.  Kyrie misses a ton of games every year, and this year he missed a bunch of them without even having a medical issue - just decided he didn't care enough to play.  then in the playoffs he got injured again - which seems to be almost an annual occurance at this point.  And it was his first year there, as the biggest head case in the NBA.  God only knows what antics he might throw next season.

Lastly, Tatum arguably didn’t even make all-NBA this year (he could’ve been 3rd team if we didn’t have position restrictions) but Dame led 2nd team (and could’ve been 1st team if we didn’t have those position restrictions). I’m not sure Dame comes in as the 2nd best player.

Sorry, I meant that Tatum (as our second best player) is capable of going toe-to-toe with pretty much anybody on that list.  Not that Lillard would be our second best player.  Vague wording on my part.

I guess we really are miles apart in assessing players. Jrue and Harris are a step up from those guys. The #3 guys on the teams you mentioned are:
1. Dennis Rodman (not Kerr)
2. Manu Ginobill (not Bowen)
3. Derek Fisher (not Horry)
4. Draymond Green (not Iguodala)

Other #3 guys from recent championships? old man Ray Allen with the C’s, Artest with the Lakers, Chris Bosh with the Heat, Kevin Love with the Cavs. Evan Fournier’s impact is several steps below these guys mentioned above. Not to say EF can’t play a role. But if he’s supposed to be our third best player? Oof, that’s rough.

And I didn’t say we stood a chance against the Nets. They should have beaten us and they did. I’m just pointing out the flaw in your assessment that the Nets trio is a “dysfunctional trio”. They played well together and Harden not being in shape all year did them in (plus, Kyrie landing on someone’s foot. Which could happen to anyone). It’s not like Kyrie quit on that Nets team in the playoffs the way he did with us. Heck, he even showed up for their game 7! (unlike ours)

And as for your hypothetical, you might prefer Lillard but I’d rather have Giannis on this team. Giannis-Tatum > Lillard-Tatum imo
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Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2021, 08:21:02 AM »

Offline mrceltics2013

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All I know is, the Nets got Harden and didn’t have to give up Kyrie or KD. No one can with a straight face say Lilliard is way better than Harden.

Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2021, 08:21:08 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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no to giving up 23 year old all star Jaylen Brown for a 31 year old....

Not only that, but Lillard is making nearly $44m next season and the last year of his contract, at age 35, he will be making $54m!
Pass...

He's also a 6-time all star, averaged > 25 PPG for like the past 6 seasons, averaged 35 PPG in the playoffs, is one of the deadliest three point shooters in the NBA, is one of the most clutch scorers in the NBA, and plays a position that the Celtics desperately could use an upgrade at.

In the NBA as it is right now - pretty much wide open in both conferences - Lillard is exactly the type of guy that could put this Celtics squad over the top.  With his endless range and clutch scoring ability he's exactly the type of guy who could bring banner #18 to Boston. 

You want a 3-4 years of legit championship runs, or do you want 7-8 years of struggling to make the ECF?  Seems like a no brainer to me.

TP

This unfolding situation reminds me of the deal getting KG for really great young asset to join Pierce ……then we got Allen .  People did not want to give up Big Al Jefferson either.

Ainge had the nads back then to get er done .

Tatum and Lillard will draw the THIRD star and it could be a HUGE name ! One like Ray Allen was , one no body would have dreamed might come to Boston.   

Ainge era is gone ,  new age likable coaches and new winning feeling ….. time to react NOW !

Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2021, 08:46:33 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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no to giving up 23 year old all star Jaylen Brown for a 31 year old....

Not only that, but Lillard is making nearly $44m next season and the last year of his contract, at age 35, he will be making $54m!
Pass...

He's also a 6-time all star, averaged > 25 PPG for like the past 6 seasons, averaged 35 PPG in the playoffs, is one of the deadliest three point shooters in the NBA, is one of the most clutch scorers in the NBA, and plays a position that the Celtics desperately could use an upgrade at.

In the NBA as it is right now - pretty much wide open in both conferences - Lillard is exactly the type of guy that could put this Celtics squad over the top.  With his endless range and clutch scoring ability he's exactly the type of guy who could bring banner #18 to Boston. 

You want a 3-4 years of legit championship runs, or do you want 7-8 years of struggling to make the ECF?  Seems like a no brainer to me.

TP

This unfolding situation reminds me of the deal getting KG for really great young asset to join Pierce ……then we got Allen .  People did not want to give up Big Al Jefferson either.

Ainge had the nads back then to get er done .

Tatum and Lillard will draw the THIRD star and it could be a HUGE name ! One like Ray Allen was , one no body would have dreamed might come to Boston.   

Ainge era is gone ,  new age likable coaches and new winning feeling ….. time to react NOW !
That's not how it happened.  The trade for Allen occurred first in June 2007.  After Allen was acquired, KG agreed to be traded to the Celts which occurred in July 2007.  Without getting Allen, we likely don't get KG.

Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #73 on: June 28, 2021, 08:57:12 AM »

Online Vermont Green

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All I know is, the Nets got Harden and didn’t have to give up Kyrie or KD. No one can with a straight face say Lilliard is way better than Harden.

This is an interesting analogy, yes, the Nets did get Harden without giving up a top player so that is a precedent.  I don't think this is a much about Harden vs Lillard value as it is about what Houston would want back vs. what you expect Portland wanted back.

Houston had already blown it up and was trying to piece together something from the rubble.  They did not want a Kyrie level player.  I am sure they would have liked Brown, a young all star.  I don't know if Portland is blowing it up.  They may.  That is the interesting thing about Brown, he is both a prospect that a totally rebuilding team would like and also current all star that a win now team can use.

If I was Portland, I would not trade Lillard for prospects like the Harden deal.  I am not sure what kind of deal makes sense.  A team interested in Lillard would be a team like Philly, not a totally rebuilding team so Philly is not going to give up any of their best players and Portland doesn't want prospects back (not that a team like Philly has top prospects/picks to offer). 

In this case, Simmons may kind of work.  Young enough to reset the clock some for Portland, good enough to help Portland now, similar in some ways to Brown.

I would not trade Brown for Lillard.  It is resetting our clock in the wrong direction.  There are some players I would trade Brown for and Lillard is close but not quite.

Re: Dame Wants Out?
« Reply #74 on: June 28, 2021, 09:38:15 AM »

Offline nebist

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I would not trade Brown for Lillard due to age, but I would trade literally everything to team Lillard up with Brown and Tatum.

https://fanspo.com/nba/s/celtics/trades/eAKSvdcSADpkQJ/the-kitchen-sink

If this deal were made, we could then sign Fournier to a 4-year deal (which lines up with Lillard's). We’d have Lillard, Jaylen, Fournier, Tatum, Horford, Tristan, Moses Brown before using vet minimums to fill out the rest of roster with ring chasers. We’d be a true contender with our 4 best players locked up for the next 3-4 years. We win a championship or two ideally. We don't make any future $ commitments past the end of Lillard's deal other than Tatum and Brown’s next extension. We sign a 3rd star max FA in the summer of 2025 to continue contending with Brown and Tatum, who are both right in their primes and have championship pedigree and Tatum is a potential MVP or Finals MVP player. You set yourself up for another 4-5 year window to hopefully win another 1-2 championships.