Hard Cap/Apron Lonzo RFA/S & T ?

[$Mike$]

I have read the hard cap/apron would prevent the Celtics from pursuing Lonzo Ball. Please help me understand if the Celtics were able to move Marcus Smart ($13m) and Tristan Thompson ($9m) why they wouldn't be able to offer Lonzo a contract in the  $18-$21 range that he is expected to receive? (I don't believe that I have a clear understanding of the hc/apron) (Both MS and TT have been mentioned in trade rumors)

If the MS and TT money comes off the payroll, wouldn't the Celtics be in the same position that they are in now just minus Smart and Thompson and the addition of Ball? If so, wouldn't they still be able to make an offer to Fournier?

How can the TPE come into play here?

Wouldn't the addition of Ball support Brad's goal of surrounding JT and JB with players who fit their style (e.g. can switch on D and not take shots away from JT and/or JB)?

Even if you had to throw in draft picks, rights to Madar, etc to make this happen, wouldn't it allow the Celtics to address 4 positions sooner than later, remain young, and finalize the 5th when Horford comes off the books?

1. Ball/Pritchard
2. Fournier/Langford
3. Brown/Nesmith
4. Tatum/G.Will or J.Parker
5. R. Williams/A. Horford/M.Brown (When Horford's contract expires, address the 5 spot)

[Vermont Green]

It is tricky because some of the contracts have incentives so you cannot say right now exactly what next seasons salary commitments will be.  The main issue is that if we take a player in a sign and trade, we become hard capped.

To start, if we somehow got out of Smart and Thompson but signed Fournier, we would still be over the cap.  Ball is not going to fit in any of the TPEs at $18M-$21M, we would have to trade Smart and Thompson directly for Sign and Trade Ball.  I think that would work.  We would then be limited as to how much we could sign Fournier for but I think we could offer him decent money and stay within the hard cap.

If we do that, Sign Fournier, Trade Smart/Thompson for Ball, we would be hard capped and there would not be that much more we could do.  I am not a big fan of Ball.  I actually think we will move Thompson and I am fine with that but I prefer to keep Smart and the cap flexibility over getting Ball and being hard capped.

[Roy H.]

The Kemba trade freed up a ton of cap flexibility for us.

Including Jabari Parker, we have roughly $127 million in salary committed.  The apron will be right around $143 million.

Thompson and smart make around $23.5 million combined. Subtract them, and we have roughly $39 million in flexibility to resign Fournier and bring somebody back in a sign and trade.

[td450]

I have read the hard cap/apron would prevent the Celtics from pursuing Lonzo Ball. Please help me understand if the Celtics were able to move Marcus Smart ($13m) and Tristan Thompson ($9m) why they wouldn't be able to offer Lonzo a contract in the  $18-$21 range that he is expected to receive? (I don't believe that I have a clear understanding of the hc/apron) (Both MS and TT have been mentioned in trade rumors)

If the MS and TT money comes off the payroll, wouldn't the Celtics be in the same position that they are in now just minus Smart and Thompson and the addition of Ball? If so, wouldn't they still be able to make an offer to Fournier?

How can the TPE come into play here?

Wouldn't the addition of Ball support Brad's goal of surrounding JT and JB with players who fit their style (e.g. can switch on D and not take shots away from JT and/or JB)?

Even if you had to throw in draft picks, rights to Madar, etc to make this happen, wouldn't it allow the Celtics to address 4 positions sooner than later, remain young, and finalize the 5th when Horford comes off the books?

1. Ball/Pritchard
2. Fournier/Langford
3. Brown/Nesmith
4. Tatum/G.Will or J.Parker
5. R. Williams/A. Horford/M.Brown (When Horford's contract expires, address the 5 spot)

I'm not an expert, but this is my understanding:

There is a salary cap, last year set at $109.1 and a luxury tax cap set last year at $132.6. We are not over the luxury tax yet, but if we sign Fournier and don't get rid of anyone, we will be.

You can't offer a free agent a contract over the lower number. We can trade existing salaries, so the only realistic way to get Ball is to get NO to sign and trade him. He would have to cooperate too, because NO can't make him sign with them unless another team tenders an offer and he accepts. As a restricted free agent, NO would have a right to assume an accepted offer. Otherwise it would have to be voluntary. Lonzo could shop himself around the league.

The problem with Ball is that Zion has stated he wants the team to keep Lonzo, and NO is likely more concerned by that than by interest in Smart. It is likely that NO pays him and he stays there.

Its too bad because he'd fit here nicely.

[johnnygreen]

After reading the Athletic report on the locker room problems, I’m not sure we can assume Fournier will re-sign.

[Sophomore]

I have read the hard cap/apron would prevent the Celtics from pursuing Lonzo Ball. Please help me understand if the Celtics were able to move Marcus Smart ($13m) and Tristan Thompson ($9m) why they wouldn't be able to offer Lonzo a contract in the  $18-$21 range that he is expected to receive? (I don't believe that I have a clear understanding of the hc/apron) (Both MS and TT have been mentioned in trade rumors)

If the MS and TT money comes off the payroll, wouldn't the Celtics be in the same position that they are in now just minus Smart and Thompson and the addition of Ball? If so, wouldn't they still be able to make an offer to Fournier?

How can the TPE come into play here?

Wouldn't the addition of Ball support Brad's goal of surrounding JT and JB with players who fit their style (e.g. can switch on D and not take shots away from JT and/or JB)?

Even if you had to throw in draft picks, rights to Madar, etc to make this happen, wouldn't it allow the Celtics to address 4 positions sooner than later, remain young, and finalize the 5th when Horford comes off the books?

1. Ball/Pritchard
2. Fournier/Langford
3. Brown/Nesmith
4. Tatum/G.Will or J.Parker
5. R. Williams/A. Horford/M.Brown (When Horford's contract expires, address the 5 spot)

Others are addressing the apron/hard cap. I’ll address the TPE question you raised. You can’t stack TPEs in a deal for one player; the incoming player’s salary has to fit within one TPE. The biggest TPE the Celtics have is about $11 million, and Ball is going to be offered more than that. Net, we won’t be bringing him in under the TPE. Happy to be corrected if a capologist can think of an angle I’m missing, but this is what I learned last year when we were all wondering about Brad Beal (whose salary was too big for the Hayward TPE).

So, in order to bring in Ball we would need to work a sign and trade with the Pellies that sent them enough salary to work under normal salary match rules (which would trigger the hard cap) or shed enough salary to get under the cap (practically speaking, this won’t happen).

[Walker Wiggle]

Thanks to the OP for creating this thread. I'm confused on what's so terrible about becoming hard-capped. If the Celtics don't plan on going into the luxury tax this year anyway, then what's the big deal if they become hard capped at a number that is just below?

[BudweiserCeltic]

The Kemba trade freed up a ton of cap flexibility for us.

Including Jabari Parker, we have roughly $127 million in salary committed.  The apron will be right around $143 million.

Thompson and smart make around $23.5 million combined. Subtract them, and we have roughly $39 million in flexibility to resign Fournier and bring somebody back in a sign and trade.

Personally I rather keep Smart, and see if we can find a S&T (or a trade target) for the Trade Exception and a good PG or PF/C type with the full MLE. Thompson gets dumped somehow. That'd be my plan. I don't like Lonzo, and not enough to give him a huge contract... and hopefully be able to keep Fournier. I don't want to play the cap space game in following years.

Derrick Rose and Bobby Portis I think would fit this team well just as an example.

Also get rid of Edwards, G. Williams. The rest I rather keep for now.

[#1P4P]

Tatum and Brown are the foundation of a Championship team (can be the best 2 players on title winning team). This team needs Championship role players to play their role and step up when needed like Huerter, Reggie Jackson, and Terrance Mann.

Smart is a Championship role player (smart teams like GSW know this), who’s one of the best and most versatile defensive players in a  given series. He’s going to perform Home/Away, up/down 20, 1st quarter or crunch time. That is more valuable than how much his shot selection gets on your nerves.

People here fall in love with Joe Harris, Bertans, Aaron Gordon, and the like until they shrink under the bright lights. I trust Marcus in a playoff series (which is the goal), Lonzo Ball still is a question mark. And given that he’s had his share of confidence issues already, I would not trade Smart for Ball.

[johnnygreen]

If Brad wants to sign a legitimate PG, but needed additional cap room, couldn't he possibly trade Smart or Thompson to the Knicks (or another team under the cap) for a future second round pick and not take back salary?

[$Mike$]

The Kemba trade freed up a ton of cap flexibility for us.

Including Jabari Parker, we have roughly $127 million in salary committed.  The apron will be right around $143 million.

Thompson and smart make around $23.5 million combined. Subtract them, and we have roughly $39 million in flexibility to resign Fournier and bring somebody back in a sign and trade.

....Thank you Roy...so based on what you said above, the Celtics would be able to do exactly what I suggested-$39 Million- minus $20M for Lonzo - minus $17M for Evan Fournier and have a young solid foundation for the roster below and still be able to address the 5 spot when Horford's contract expires.

1. Ball/Pritchard
2. Fournier/Langford
3. Brown/Nesmith
4. Tatum/G.Will or J.Parker
5. R. Williams/A. Horford/M.Brown (When Horford's contract expires, address the 5 spot)

[Vermont Green]

The Kemba trade freed up a ton of cap flexibility for us.

Including Jabari Parker, we have roughly $127 million in salary committed.  The apron will be right around $143 million.

Thompson and smart make around $23.5 million combined. Subtract them, and we have roughly $39 million in flexibility to resign Fournier and bring somebody back in a sign and trade.

I agree with this but if we are at $127M and take out Smart and Thompson (-$23M), add in Lonzo Ball (+$20M) and Fournier (+20M?), we would be at $144M which is right at the Apron level.  The main point is that, yes, in theory, we can S&T for Ball (send out Smart and Thompson) and sign Fournier but if we did, that would really be just about it.  We would be right at the hard cap and not able to do anything with any TPEs.

We could also just keep Smart, trade Thompson, sign Fournier, not be hard capped and then use the TPE to bring in some other pieces.  We would only be at about $137M in this scenario (after signing Fournier and depending on what we take back in trading Thompson) so potentially could bring in other pieces and still stay under the tax (but we would not have to).  This seems to result in a stronger overall team.

Option 1:  Out: Smart, Thompson (for Ball), In: Ball, Fournier (no MLE, TPE trades, etc)
Option 2:  Out :Smart, Thompson (for Ball) In: Ball, don't sign Fournier and bring in other players with TPEs, MLE.
Option 3:  Out: Thompson, In: Fournier, keep Smart, plus other pieces with TPE, MLE, what we get for Thompson, etc

[footey]

Lonzo is a RFA. He would have to agree to the sign and trade for it to work. 

Has he ever indicated any interest in playing for Boston? Just the opposite; he refused to work out for the Celtics when they had the 1st pick in 2017. 

I think this Lonzo stuff is pure fiction, will never happen.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Lonzo is a RFA. He would have to agree to the sign and trade for it to work. 

Has he ever indicated any interest in playing for Boston? Just the opposite; he refused to work out for the Celtics when they had the 1st pick in 2017. 

I think this Lonzo stuff is pure fiction, will never happen.

That's usually how sign and trades work. But good points.

[Vermont Green]

Lonzo is a RFA. He would have to agree to the sign and trade for it to work. 

Has he ever indicated any interest in playing for Boston? Just the opposite; he refused to work out for the Celtics when they had the 1st pick in 2017. 

I think this Lonzo stuff is pure fiction, will never happen.

That's usually how sign and trades work. But good points.

Yes, Lonzo has to agree and New Orleans would have to agree to take back Smart and Thompson (not completely unreasonable) although we could add in picks.  I don't think this is likely at all either and I don't even think he is much if any upgrade over Smart.

This discussion has shown that with the Kemba trade there is the possibility to package Smart and Thompson in a sign and trade and to have enough money to work with under the hard cap to do some other things.  Possible, yes, but to me, not the best thing, at least not for Ball.