Athletic report on locker room problems

[LilRip]

I would be surprised if Kemba didn’t rehab. Maybe something closer to the truth is that he did the rehab and the rehab didn’t help (or barely had an effect) and so when they saw the knee again, it looked like there was barely any progress.

[Kuberski33]

Bill Simmons is saying Kemba didn't do his rehab. Anybody know anything about that?

https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/kemba-walker-knee-rehab/

not sure...but I buy what MacMullan and Simmons say ... most of the time

They were one of the first ones who stated Danny might be on his way out/retire

Ended up happening

Simmons has a source in Celtics managment or admin. So I think there's something to this.  But it does speak to the Red Sox Lucchino era knack for trashing people on their way out of town. My guess is his source is someone who works for the team and is not Wyc, Brad, Ainge or anyone who's a real decision maker. They took the high road with Kyrie so it would make no sense to not do it with Kemba - plus they've never really operated that way.

I read the Athletic column and I'm a fan of Weiss. I'd be curious who his sources are.  But to me it all sounds like the sniping and bickering you get in high school. So its probably coming from players.

The one thing I took from Weiss' article is that some players on the team aren't exactly fond of Smart.  Brad said he wanted to do everything possible to build the roster around the Jays so I'm really curious what he's going to do with Marcus.

This to me all speaks to a team that lacks leadership and accountability, meaning it's key players are still too young. You can bring someone in to try to hold people accountable, but if the Jays are the 2 best players its' likely not going to work. Smart apparently isn't the guy to do that anymore - even though his attitude has impacted every Celtics team he's played on - except for the current one.

I think we're at a point - similar maybe to Phoenix and Atlanta where we need to wait for the Jays to mature. They have to be the leaders and as of now anyway - they're just not ready.  Whether they will be or not is the million dollar question but Brad and ownership obviously think that they are.

[tenn_smoothie]

So take the "Athletic" , another one of those pay sites of largely NY sports analysts, with a certain grain of salt. Having said that, I do believe there was locker room dysfunction with the Celtics, and the coach undoubtedly was involved in some ways. Some ex-player analysts have suggested Stevens was kicked upstairs to get a new coach without having to  eat his guaranteed $30 million contract. Makes a lot of sense. It was easy to get Danny to retire, since he had come to realize that the stars were dictating which teams they wanted to play for, and GMs had become outmoded. We are seeing that now in other sports. GB Packers, anyone?

If Stevens was made GM primarily to save money, then we are in big trouble.

[tenn_smoothie]

I really think that so many of the issues the last few years with vets that the team has brought in on big money deals is that those guys came to Boston thinking the Celts would be their team and then it became quickly apparent that the Celts revolve first and foremost around Tatum and Brown, and to a lesser extent Smart and Stevens.

Hayward and Kyrie were obviously brought in with the idea that they would be central figures for the franchise, but for various reasons that never materialized and instead the team became oriented around Tatum and Brown.

Danny did bring in Irving and Hayward to be the Alpha Dogs and to lead the franchise back to annual title contention status.

Then 2017-18 happened. Hayward suffers an incredibly bad injury within the first two minutes of his Celtic career and Kyrie discovers this Alpha Dog role might not be what he wants after all. He also struggles with injuries which keep him out of the playoffs and the young kids (Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Smart) unexpectedly excel and get us to an ECF Game 7 vs Cleveland, which Irving (and maybe Hayward ??) chose not to attend. Now the pecking order and team roles are completely blown up, Stevens is not strong enough or skilled enough to correct the problems, Kyrie turns psycho and Danny's plan blows up in our faces.

Bad Luck led to unforeseeable team chemistry problems which led to mistakes by Ainge trying to fix the roster the past few years and here we are picking up the pieces after a disappointing season. The run of disaster ever since the 1986 title has to be unprecedented for any NBA franchise in the history of the league. Sometimes I jokingly think Red made a deal with the devil years ago to create all the success we had acquiring just the right players at just the right time and building three separate championship teams in the process. Not being at all serious, but our misfortune has been incredible.

[ozgod]

For those of you who would like to read the article, here is it in its entirety (I have an Athletic sub).

An inside look at the factors that led to the inevitable break up between Kemba Walker and the Celtics

Jared Weiss Jun 19, 2021 266
A Kemba Walker trade seemed inevitable this year. It started before last season, when the Celtics were reportedly attempting to trade him ahead of the draft and word got around to Walker.

There were no takers at the time for a player who had just been an All-Star starter months earlier, so the Celtics waited in hopes a prolonged rehab program would build him up to form. After a season sitting out back-to-backs, Walker started to look like himself again before he injured his knee in the Nets series and it was suddenly over.

In the end, the Celtics still needed to attach the 16th-overall pick in next month’s draft to move him, sending Walker to Oklahoma City for Al Horford and Moses Brown in addition to an exchange of second-round picks. It’s the second consecutive draft the Celtics have dispatched a first-round pick to unburden a salary, following the Enes Kanter trade which sent All-Rookie team member Desmond Bane to Memphis. A rare significant trade made before the draft combine, before the lottery, before Brad Stevens hiring his replacement as coach.

While Walker’s struggles might have made him seem like a disappointment relative to his role and salary, he was still good last season. He is well-liked, known for his geniality and positivity. According to multiple team sources, there was some dysfunction in the locker room, with the relationship between Stevens and Walker characterized as tension-filled. Sources also suggest that Stevens was also perceived to be harder on Walker than on other top players.

This came in the wake of Gordon Hayward’s departure, after which sources said Hayward told Stevens he needed to establish a stronger voice with players if they were going to win.

Several team sources felt Stevens was more aggressive with certain players this season, which included Walker who was criticized for his defensive mistakes.  Those sources said Walker and Stevens began to butt heads, though the pair were considered to have a productive working relationship and mutual respect for one another.

Walker maintained his professionalism throughout the season but his health issues, the team’s poor performance and boos from TD Garden fans — something that particularly “p---ed him off,” according to multiple sources — made him sour on his situation in Boston and had spoken privately about being willing to move to a new team. It had become clear he was not going to be in the team’s long-term plans.

The question now is how these moves will impact Boston’s franchise players. Jayson Tatum has already seen close friend Javonte Green move to Chicago at the deadline, and now loses another locker room friend in Walker. Horford’s arrival opens the door for the team to possibly move on from Tristan Thompson, another close teammate for Tatum.

It raises another question of what this means for Marcus Smart, currently the team’s starting point guard. He and Horford built a culture of defensive accountability that held up in 2020 before falling apart in 2021. Team sources suggest Smart was alone in trying to establish that accountability last season, with teammates often tuning him out. It reached a boiling point when he and Jaylen Brown were involved in a heated confrontation after Game 2 of the 2020 Eastern Conference finals as reported by The Athletic’s Shams Charania.

Smart has long been a favorite of both Stevens and predecessor Danny Ainge, even as Ainge was reportedly exploring trades for Smart. Despite the continuity in leadership, several team sources suggest the Celtics’ culture of competition is eroding — with more than one source pointing to the players’ perceived indifference toward Kyrie Irving stomping on the Celtics logo after the final home game of the season as a red flag they did not exhibit the same sense of pride in the organization that has been the Celtics’ calling card in years past.

According to a source, Brooklyn’s Blake Griffin asked a Celtics player if he should join the team midseason and was told not to come to Boston because of the apparent dysfunction.

At season’s end, multiple sources close to the players said several members of the locker room were welcoming a coaching change, noting Stevens did not appear to hold key players accountable, with complaints he was favoring Smart over others. The common refrain was that the team should hire a person of color with NBA playing experience to coach, something Stevens seems to be addressing with Chauncey Billups, Ime Udoka and Darvin Ham getting second interviews, as first reported by ESPN.

It’s unclear if and how a new coach would empower Smart. With Horford back, there at least are two voices with experienced postseason leadership, with Horford happy to be the calm presence while Smart continues to be a firebrand. Though Walker was revered by his teammates, his ability to effect change with his voice was naturally undercut by his struggles to match it on the floor.

The Walker trade can be seen as part of a multi-step process to keep Evan Fournier and Robert Williams. Swapping Walker for Horford gets the team far enough below the tax line now that re-signing Fournier to somewhere in the teens annually will only push them to the first or second tier of the progressive luxury tax. It allows the team to keep building while creating a marginal tax bill ownership can live with for a likely non-contender. It also makes it easier to open up a max salary slot in free agency in 2022, as Horford’s deal is only 50 percent guaranteed at $14 million next season. It also provides space below the tax if they work out deals with Rob Williams and Smart as well.

Presuming the roster stays relatively similar and the Celtics use the tax mid-level exception to bring in another rotation player, Smart will likely start at point guard. Then Brown and Tatum at the wings, Fournier and Horford likely taking turns as starters based on matchup, and Williams starting at the five. It’s quite possible Williams will need more load management this year and Horford will spend time as the starting center as well. Smart at the one has become increasingly plausible with Tatum and Brown’s playmaking development, especially now that Horford is back to run a lot of the effective offensive scheme the Celtics had with him in his first stint.

The team struggled with Theis and Thompson in a double big lineup last year, but Horford and Williams are far more dynamic scorers and passers and could pair nicely if Horford is still shooting decently. According to sources, several players expressed frustration with Stevens’ “college offense” and how the team’s best players would often get stuck in isolation.

When Walker was on, he gave Boston an extra offensive dimension that allowed Tatum and Brown the freedom to attack with space. Regardless of whether Walker gets back to that point, it’s time for the Celtics to move on and enhance the depth around its two stars.

But the Celtics have more issues to solve than just putting the right pieces around their best players. They need to rebuild a culture that will keep their players excited to be a part of the Celtics.

https://theathletic.com/2660873/2021/06/19/an-inside-look-at-the-factors-that-led-to-the-inevitable-break-up-between-kemba-walker-and-the-celtics/

[RJ87]

Bill Simmons is saying Kemba didn't do his rehab. Anybody know anything about that?

https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/kemba-walker-knee-rehab/

Danny, Stevens and Kemba all said he was doing his rehab and exercises, and nothing like this was reported at the time.

That doesn't mean anything, though. Of course Danny and Brad are going to say he's being diligent in his rehab, what else can they say? Neither are the types to throw a guy under the bus even in cases where it's warranted. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but we need to stop using anything management says as proof. Everything is spin and media speak.

[Roy H.]

Bill Simmons is saying Kemba didn't do his rehab. Anybody know anything about that?

https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/kemba-walker-knee-rehab/

Danny, Stevens and Kemba all said he was doing his rehab and exercises, and nothing like this was reported at the time.

That doesn't mean anything, though. Of course Danny and Brad are going to say he's being diligent in his rehab, what else can they say? Neither are the types to throw a guy under the bus even in cases where it's warranted. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but we need to stop using anything management says as proof. Everything is spin and media speak.

I trust contemporaneous, on-record statements more than I do unsourced nonsense from guys lacking credibility.

[td450]

Bill Simmons is saying Kemba didn't do his rehab. Anybody know anything about that?

https://heavy.com/sports/boston-celtics/kemba-walker-knee-rehab/

Danny, Stevens and Kemba all said he was doing his rehab and exercises, and nothing like this was reported at the time.

That doesn't mean anything, though. Of course Danny and Brad are going to say he's being diligent in his rehab, what else can they say? Neither are the types to throw a guy under the bus even in cases where it's warranted. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but we need to stop using anything management says as proof. Everything is spin and media speak.

There is also reality. We saw what happened. The truth is somewhere in the middle. He had several months, and he wasn't ready to play.

I have to say I blame Ainge for part of this because this was a $34M+ problem, and extensive, careful remote supervision over video feed may have been awkward, but certainly could have worked nearly as well. Every office in the country figured this out to some extent. Why couldn't they?

Kemba then did another extensive team supervised rehab, and got only part way there. He needed 10 games to even look like he belonged in the NBA and then started to creep back to where he eventually got, which was roughly 90%, and that appears to be his new ceiling.

So, his unsupervised stint was of no value, and that was bad for the franchise. But, this was clearly a grind that was only going to go so far, because we saw what happened in plain sight when the players returned.

The most likely scenario by far is he did the exercises, but he didn't push himself like he should have.

[ozgod]

I found a couple of Jared's tidbits interesting:

According to multiple team sources, there was some dysfunction in the locker room, with the relationship between Stevens and Walker characterized as tension-filled. Sources also suggest that Stevens was also perceived to be harder on Walker than on other top players.

This came in the wake of Gordon Hayward’s departure, after which sources said Hayward told Stevens he needed to establish a stronger voice with players if they were going to win.

Several team sources felt Stevens was more aggressive with certain players this season, which included Walker who was criticized for his defensive mistakes.  Those sources said Walker and Stevens began to butt heads, though the pair were considered to have a productive working relationship and mutual respect for one another.

Walker maintained his professionalism throughout the season but his health issues, the team’s poor performance and boos from TD Garden fans — something that particularly “p---ed him off,” according to multiple sources — made him sour on his situation in Boston and had spoken privately about being willing to move to a new team.

At season’s end, multiple sources close to the players said several members of the locker room were welcoming a coaching change, noting Stevens did not appear to hold key players accountable, with complaints he was favoring Smart over others. The common refrain was that the team should hire a person of color with NBA playing experience to coach, something Stevens seems to be addressing with Chauncey Billups, Ime Udoka and Darvin Ham getting second interviews, as first reported by ESPN.

If Kemba was p---ed off by boos from the Garden fans then he definitely didn't have the right spine to play in Boston.

[tazzmaniac]

I found a couple of Jared's tidbits interesting:

According to multiple team sources, there was some dysfunction in the locker room, with the relationship between Stevens and Walker characterized as tension-filled. Sources also suggest that Stevens was also perceived to be harder on Walker than on other top players.

This came in the wake of Gordon Hayward’s departure, after which sources said Hayward told Stevens he needed to establish a stronger voice with players if they were going to win.

Several team sources felt Stevens was more aggressive with certain players this season, which included Walker who was criticized for his defensive mistakes.  Those sources said Walker and Stevens began to butt heads, though the pair were considered to have a productive working relationship and mutual respect for one another.

Walker maintained his professionalism throughout the season but his health issues, the team’s poor performance and boos from TD Garden fans — something that particularly “p---ed him off,” according to multiple sources — made him sour on his situation in Boston and had spoken privately about being willing to move to a new team.

At season’s end, multiple sources close to the players said several members of the locker room were welcoming a coaching change, noting Stevens did not appear to hold key players accountable, with complaints he was favoring Smart over others. The common refrain was that the team should hire a person of color with NBA playing experience to coach, something Stevens seems to be addressing with Chauncey Billups, Ime Udoka and Darvin Ham getting second interviews, as first reported by ESPN.

If Kemba was p---ed off by boos from the Garden fans then he definitely didn't have the right spine to play in Boston.

You don't think most players get p---ed off when they get booed by their own fans, especially when they are dealing with an injury and trying to play through it.  His overall numbers look pretty good so it doesn't look like the booing affected his play. 

[PhoSita]

I'm guessing Kemba was not used to being held to the standard of defense that most supporting guys are held to.  In Charlotte he was the primary scorer, so I'm sure it was understood that he had to save himself on the defensive side of things.

Similarly, I'm sure he was not used to fans having such high expectations for the team or becoming dissatisfied when the team is not playing at a high level.  In Charlotte I'm sure the fans go nuts if the team is in the mix for a playoff spot.  Kemba only made the playoffs twice in his time in Charlotte.

[LilRip]

From how I read the article, it seems one huge thing the C’s really lack is culture. A lot of what’s being described strikes me as symptomatic (defense waning, butting heads, tuning out, wanting a coaching change, etc) of something bigger. Maybe it’s the lack of ownership.

Despite JB/JT being here for a while, maybe the lack of stability, high player movement and constant trade rumors around them has made them feel this. Like, they’re not really “Celtics”. That’s a term reserved only for the front office and the fans. They’re just players wearing Celtics jerseys.

And maybe it was a concept they once believed but was lost this year. And it’s a culmination of losing top guys like IT4, Kyrie, Hayward, Horford and less heralded players like Kanter, Green, etc. And now Theis, Kemba an potentially TT.

As much as the locker room might be at odds with Smart right now, I just realized now that trading him might actually end up being the most jarring thing. This guy has been Mr. Celtic for a while now and trading him might send the wrong message. Or maybe idk, maybe JB/JT want him out and need him out to be able to finally lead an make it “their” team

[Tr1boy]

From how I read the article, it seems one huge thing the C’s really lack is culture. A lot of what’s being described strikes me as symptomatic (defense waning, butting heads, tuning out, wanting a coaching change, etc) of something bigger. Maybe it’s the lack of ownership.

Despite JB/JT being here for a while, maybe the lack of stability, high player movement and constant trade rumors around them has made them feel this. Like, they’re not really “Celtics”. That’s a term reserved only for the front office and the fans. They’re just players wearing Celtics jerseys.

And maybe it was a concept they once believed but was lost this year. And it’s a culmination of losing top guys like IT4, Kyrie, Hayward, Horford and less heralded players like Kanter, Green, etc. And now Theis, Kemba an potentially TT.

As much as the locker room might be at odds with Smart right now, I just realized now that trading him might actually end up being the most jarring thing. This guy has been Mr. Celtic for a while now and trading him might send the wrong message. Or maybe idk, maybe JB/JT want him out and need him out to be able to finally lead an make it “their” team

Horford left due to money. And Irving wanted to be little Lebron... and failed

Not sure why the Celts need to become the next Cavs

Most other teams follow a hierchy.  Not let a player(s) dictate how it should be run

Imagine a highly regarded specialist or analyst in a corporation overriding the CEO??  Recipe for disaster

If it were up to Tatum. My guess is that Kemba wouldnt be traded. Javonte Green wouldnt have been traded. And last season they sign the often injured Harry Giles to a contract. 

[Tr1boy]

On a side note/distraction ish regarding Thompson

News of the split comes after reports claim that the athlete was spotted entering a private room with three women at a club on June 17th

...

[LilRip]

From how I read the article, it seems one huge thing the C’s really lack is culture. A lot of what’s being described strikes me as symptomatic (defense waning, butting heads, tuning out, wanting a coaching change, etc) of something bigger. Maybe it’s the lack of ownership.

Despite JB/JT being here for a while, maybe the lack of stability, high player movement and constant trade rumors around them has made them feel this. Like, they’re not really “Celtics”. That’s a term reserved only for the front office and the fans. They’re just players wearing Celtics jerseys.

And maybe it was a concept they once believed but was lost this year. And it’s a culmination of losing top guys like IT4, Kyrie, Hayward, Horford and less heralded players like Kanter, Green, etc. And now Theis, Kemba an potentially TT.

As much as the locker room might be at odds with Smart right now, I just realized now that trading him might actually end up being the most jarring thing. This guy has been Mr. Celtic for a while now and trading him might send the wrong message. Or maybe idk, maybe JB/JT want him out and need him out to be able to finally lead an make it “their” team

Horford left due to money. And Irving wanted to be little Lebron... and failed

Not sure why the Celts need to become the next Cavs or follow the Lakers

Most other teams follow a hierchy.  Not let a player(s) dictate how it should be run

Imagine a highly regarded specialist or analyst in a corporation overriding the CEO??  Recipe for disaster

If it were up to Tatum. My guess is that Kemba wouldnt be traded. Javonte Green wouldnt have been traded. And last season they sign the often injured Harry Giles to a contract.

Logically, you are correct. But when it comes to things like morale and culture, the reason why players leave matters less, especially if the transition or change was handled poorly (or not handled at all).

To use your corporate analogy, overriding the CEO is an extreme analogy and it wasn’t what I was going for at all. Not everything needs to be an extreme. After all, isn’t it the responsibility of the leadership team to keep morale up and keep their team (including top specialists or analysts) engaged? It’s a different working environment when a team is high risk for attrition vs a team with high satisfaction scores.

Obviously we’re not privy to what’s happening behind the scenes. We can only speculate based on the clues and reports like this that surface. I just happen to think there’s something deeper that ties all the things together, which is players (right now) might not feel any ownership towards what they’re doing. Who cares about banner 18? Players want All-NBA and allstar games and yes, a ring, but does it have to be banner 18? Maybe that was something some of them used to believe but now it’s more, ehhhh

Anyway, on the plus side, maybe the coaching change will spark that passion. Maybe Brad is much better handling players as a GM than he is at handling players as a coach. Maybe Al Horford will inspire some pride in our guys again.