Woj Bomb: Kemba, 1st Rounder, & '25 2nd Rounder to OKC for Horford, Brown, 2nd

[Surferdad]

I feel like people need to understand that potential isn’t just another word for size or athleticism.  And that goes for NBA people, too, by the way:  Joe Alexander wasn’t picked eighth for his basketball skills.  We all love to dream on the “what if this big, athletic guy just learned to play basketball!” project as if developing NBA-caliber skills is a given as long as you work hard enough. 

Moses Brown is tall, active, can rebound and can dunk.  He has no other basketball skills of note.  His hands are mediocre at best, he’s a poor defender, he has no touch, no range, no footwork, no ball-handling, and no passing - and that’s leaving out the mental side of the game.  This isn’t a case of an actual “high potential” guy like Jaylen, where most of the necessary skills were nascent and just needed refinement.  Moses straight up does not possess these skills at this time.  That is very unlikely to change in an offseason or two.

The odds of him developing enough to become more than a dime-a-dozen hustle guy are very, very low.  There’s still value in a situational energy big man, don’t get me wrong.  I just don’t see this “potential” in him that others do.

Good post.  Brown isn't even particularly athletic for an NBA player.

To set the record straight, Jaylen Brown is an elite athlete.

[Wretch]

My money is on TT as the source of a lot of the BS bashing. The "college offense" comment couldn't have come from a core player that's gone to multiple ECF with BS offenses. I wonder if Kevin O'Connor's comments about TT being a locker room problem were accurate after all.

I'm really disappointed that the highest payed player on the team didn't like being held accountable for defensive lapses. BS teams in the past were built off a defense first mentality.

[tazzmaniac]

I feel like people need to understand that potential isn’t just another word for size or athleticism.  And that goes for NBA people, too, by the way:  Joe Alexander wasn’t picked eighth for his basketball skills.  We all love to dream on the “what if this big, athletic guy just learned to play basketball!” project as if developing NBA-caliber skills is a given as long as you work hard enough. 

Moses Brown is tall, active, can rebound and can dunk.  He has no other basketball skills of note.  His hands are mediocre at best, he’s a poor defender, he has no touch, no range, no footwork, no ball-handling, and no passing - and that’s leaving out the mental side of the game.  This isn’t a case of an actual “high potential” guy like Jaylen, where most of the necessary skills were nascent and just needed refinement.  Moses straight up does not possess these skills at this time.  That is very unlikely to change in an offseason or two.

The odds of him developing enough to become more than a dime-a-dozen hustle guy are very, very low.  There’s still value in a situational energy big man, don’t get me wrong.  I just don’t see this “potential” in him that others do.

Good post.  Brown isn't even particularly athletic for an NBA player.

To set the record straight, Jaylen Brown is an elite athlete.

Was this humor?  We were talking Moses Brown. 

[cman88]

Brad stevens was great for what the celtics were in the rebuilding phase. When he was coaching young players who needed development and undervalued vets like crowder/IT4 who had something to prove. they bought in to his scheme and played hard.

with Kemba, this is the second vet (kyrie being first) who had a problem with stevens. Its also the 3rd year hes lost control of the team and they lost.

now that guys are more established and have had success they aren't listening to him as they once did. At this point they dont need an x's and o's guy who can get the most out of okay talent. we need a Doc Rivers type who can handle egos and have command of the locker-room.

I do think its smart to go after the guys they are. Is someone like smart/tatum going to talk trash to a chauncy billups? who knew his role and played it and won a ring? probably not.

[Who]

My money is on TT as the source of a lot of the BS bashing. The "college offense" comment couldn't have come from a core player that's gone to multiple ECF with BS offenses. I wonder if Kevin O'Connor's comments about TT being a locker room problem were accurate after all.

I'm really disappointed that the highest payed player on the team didn't like being held accountable for defensive lapses. BS teams in the past were built off a defense first mentality.

TT + B.Griffin + Kardashians

Is there some overlap socially there? Those two guys might be friends off the court? Or at least know each other socially if not friends as a result.

Maybe make it more likely TT was the guy Blake called and talked to.

You do look at the roster and wonder who Blake might know well enough to call them up and ask them about it. And/or who might know Blake well enough to give a negative/harsh (honest?) response like that.

[jambr380]

Brad stevens was great for what the celtics were in the rebuilding phase. When he was coaching young players who needed development and undervalued vets like crowder/IT4 who had something to prove. they bought in to his scheme and played hard.

with Kemba, this is the second vet (kyrie being first) who had a problem with stevens. Its also the 3rd year hes lost control of the team and they lost.

now that guys are more established and have had success they aren't listening to him as they once did. At this point they dont need an x's and o's guy who can get the most out of okay talent. we need a Doc Rivers type who can handle egos and have command of the locker-room.

I do think its smart to go after the guys they are. Is someone like smart/tatum going to talk trash to a chauncy billups? who knew his role and played it and won a ring? probably not.

I feel like the final narrative on Brad is painting a different picture than what actually was the case. He just came off 3 ECFs in 4 years - that isn't being a failed coach (you aren't necessarily saying that here) and we'd probably be talking about multiple Titles - or at least multiple Finals appearances - if Lebron/Crowder didn't ruin Danny's amazing master plan 5 minutes into the most anticipated season since 07-08. I mean we went to game 7 of the ECF that year without Hayward and Kyrie.

I understand things didn't go wonderfully in the 2nd Kyrie year, but we were right back in the ECF in 2020 - this time w/o Hayward and with a hobbled Kemba, but MIA just couldn't lose. 2020-21 was a struggle, but the constant missed games due to injuries/Covid and the extremely short offseason proved to be too much to overcome - both mentally and physically.

I posit that Stevens often did get the most out of his talent and he stepped aside due to being mentally drained, not because he would never have been able to gain back the trust of the locker room...if that's even what happened.

[Roy H.]

Brad stevens was great for what the celtics were in the rebuilding phase. When he was coaching young players who needed development and undervalued vets like crowder/IT4 who had something to prove. they bought in to his scheme and played hard.

with Kemba, this is the second vet (kyrie being first) who had a problem with stevens. Its also the 3rd year hes lost control of the team and they lost.

now that guys are more established and have had success they aren't listening to him as they once did. At this point they dont need an x's and o's guy who can get the most out of okay talent. we need a Doc Rivers type who can handle egos and have command of the locker-room.

I do think its smart to go after the guys they are. Is someone like smart/tatum going to talk trash to a chauncy billups? who knew his role and played it and won a ring? probably not.

I feel like the final narrative on Brad is painting a different picture than what actually was the case. He just came off 3 ECFs in 4 years - that isn't being a failed coach (you aren't necessarily saying that here) and we'd probably be talking about multiple Titles - or at least multiple Finals appearances - if Lebron/Crowder didn't ruin Danny's amazing master plan 5 minutes into the most anticipated season since 07-08. I mean we went to game 7 of the ECF that year without Hayward and Kyrie.

I understand things didn't go wonderfully in the 2nd Kyrie year, but we were right back in the ECF in 2020 - this time w/o Hayward and with a hobbled Kemba, but MIA just couldn't lose. 2020-21 was a struggle, but the constant missed games due to injuries/Covid and the extremely short offseason proved to be too much to overcome - both mentally and physically.

I posit that Stevens often did get the most out of his talent and he stepped aside due to being mentally drained, not because he would never have been able to gain back the trust of the locker room...if that's even what happened.

If these rumors are true, it’s that Stevens was hard on Kemba because he kept making defensive mistakes.

Is that really a coaching problem?  (That’s more in response to cman88’s post).

[hwangjini_1]

Brad stevens was great for what the celtics were in the rebuilding phase. When he was coaching young players who needed development and undervalued vets like crowder/IT4 who had something to prove. they bought in to his scheme and played hard.

with Kemba, this is the second vet (kyrie being first) who had a problem with stevens. Its also the 3rd year hes lost control of the team and they lost.

now that guys are more established and have had success they aren't listening to him as they once did. At this point they dont need an x's and o's guy who can get the most out of okay talent. we need a Doc Rivers type who can handle egos and have command of the locker-room.

I do think its smart to go after the guys they are. Is someone like smart/tatum going to talk trash to a chauncy billups? who knew his role and played it and won a ring? probably not.

I feel like the final narrative on Brad is painting a different picture than what actually was the case. He just came off 3 ECFs in 4 years - that isn't being a failed coach (you aren't necessarily saying that here) and we'd probably be talking about multiple Titles - or at least multiple Finals appearances - if Lebron/Crowder didn't ruin Danny's amazing master plan 5 minutes into the most anticipated season since 07-08. I mean we went to game 7 of the ECF that year without Hayward and Kyrie.

I understand things didn't go wonderfully in the 2nd Kyrie year, but we were right back in the ECF in 2020 - this time w/o Hayward and with a hobbled Kemba, but MIA just couldn't lose. 2020-21 was a struggle, but the constant missed games due to injuries/Covid and the extremely short offseason proved to be too much to overcome - both mentally and physically.

I posit that Stevens often did get the most out of his talent and he stepped aside due to being mentally drained, not because he would never have been able to gain back the trust of the locker room...if that's even what happened.

great post jamb. a tp for the thought that went into it. it is not common that a coach can last as long as then-CBS in the nba. maybe one particular rendition  or version of the celtics did not sit well with his coaching. that is life and how human beings function very often.

we don't all get along all the time.

(except for my wife and i, who are always happy together now and forever.....in case she reads this post.)

[Neurotic Guy]

My money is on TT as the source of a lot of the BS bashing. The "college offense" comment couldn't have come from a core player that's gone to multiple ECF with BS offenses. I wonder if Kevin O'Connor's comments about TT being a locker room problem were accurate after all.

I'm really disappointed that the highest payed player on the team didn't like being held accountable for defensive lapses. BS teams in the past were built off a defense first mentality.

TT + B.Griffin + Kardashians

Is there some overlap socially there? Those two guys might be friends off the court? Or at least know each other socially if not friends as a result.

Maybe make it more likely TT was the guy Blake called and talked to.

You do look at the roster and wonder who Blake might know well enough to call them up and ask them about it. And/or who might know Blake well enough to give a negative/harsh (honest?) response like that.

Doesn’t it make you wonder that Blake would throw his source under the bus by telling a reporter what he was told?  Even if he didn’t name the source it opens speculation.  Someone in casual conversation  says “stay away” and you go to the press with that?   Why would you?  Griffin is a veteran and probably press savvy - what is there to gain by revealing that conversation?  It’s not like there was something scandalous to reveal. I tend to think the story lacks accuracy. 

[tazzmaniac]

Brad stevens was great for what the celtics were in the rebuilding phase. When he was coaching young players who needed development and undervalued vets like crowder/IT4 who had something to prove. they bought in to his scheme and played hard.

with Kemba, this is the second vet (kyrie being first) who had a problem with stevens. Its also the 3rd year hes lost control of the team and they lost.

now that guys are more established and have had success they aren't listening to him as they once did. At this point they dont need an x's and o's guy who can get the most out of okay talent. we need a Doc Rivers type who can handle egos and have command of the locker-room.

I do think its smart to go after the guys they are. Is someone like smart/tatum going to talk trash to a chauncy billups? who knew his role and played it and won a ring? probably not.

I feel like the final narrative on Brad is painting a different picture than what actually was the case. He just came off 3 ECFs in 4 years - that isn't being a failed coach (you aren't necessarily saying that here) and we'd probably be talking about multiple Titles - or at least multiple Finals appearances - if Lebron/Crowder didn't ruin Danny's amazing master plan 5 minutes into the most anticipated season since 07-08. I mean we went to game 7 of the ECF that year without Hayward and Kyrie.

I understand things didn't go wonderfully in the 2nd Kyrie year, but we were right back in the ECF in 2020 - this time w/o Hayward and with a hobbled Kemba, but MIA just couldn't lose. 2020-21 was a struggle, but the constant missed games due to injuries/Covid and the extremely short offseason proved to be too much to overcome - both mentally and physically.

I posit that Stevens often did get the most out of his talent and he stepped aside due to being mentally drained, not because he would never have been able to gain back the trust of the locker room...if that's even what happened.

If these rumors are true, it’s that Stevens was hard on Kemba because he kept making defensive mistakes.

Is that really a coaching problem?  (That’s more in response to cman88’s post).

It certainly can be.  There are plenty of NBA players that don't play good defense.  Even good 2-way players, take plenty of plays off on defense during the regular season.  So how was he hard on Kemba?  Was it reasonable?  Not from a fan's perspective but from a grown man, established NBA star perspective.  Was he also similarly hard on other players or did he give his favorites a pass? 

Stevens has always been a good mid major college coach to me.  Personally I don't think he grew much as an NBA coach.  NBA head coaching is primarily about dealing with players not schemes and Xs and Os.  I couldn't imagine Stevens trying to coach the Nets stars with their difficult personalities. 

[Roy H.]

   I couldn't imagine Stevens trying to coach the Nets stars with their difficult personalities.

I can’t imagine any coach actually coaching them.  Stars do whatever they want.  The NBA is essentially billion dollar pickup games at this point.

Good for Stevens for trying to instruct his players to play the right way. 

[td450]

Brad stevens was great for what the celtics were in the rebuilding phase. When he was coaching young players who needed development and undervalued vets like crowder/IT4 who had something to prove. they bought in to his scheme and played hard.

with Kemba, this is the second vet (kyrie being first) who had a problem with stevens. Its also the 3rd year hes lost control of the team and they lost.

now that guys are more established and have had success they aren't listening to him as they once did. At this point they dont need an x's and o's guy who can get the most out of okay talent. we need a Doc Rivers type who can handle egos and have command of the locker-room.

I do think its smart to go after the guys they are. Is someone like smart/tatum going to talk trash to a chauncy billups? who knew his role and played it and won a ring? probably not.

I feel like the final narrative on Brad is painting a different picture than what actually was the case. He just came off 3 ECFs in 4 years - that isn't being a failed coach (you aren't necessarily saying that here) and we'd probably be talking about multiple Titles - or at least multiple Finals appearances - if Lebron/Crowder didn't ruin Danny's amazing master plan 5 minutes into the most anticipated season since 07-08. I mean we went to game 7 of the ECF that year without Hayward and Kyrie.

I understand things didn't go wonderfully in the 2nd Kyrie year, but we were right back in the ECF in 2020 - this time w/o Hayward and with a hobbled Kemba, but MIA just couldn't lose. 2020-21 was a struggle, but the constant missed games due to injuries/Covid and the extremely short offseason proved to be too much to overcome - both mentally and physically.

I posit that Stevens often did get the most out of his talent and he stepped aside due to being mentally drained, not because he would never have been able to gain back the trust of the locker room...if that's even what happened.

If these rumors are true, it’s that Stevens was hard on Kemba because he kept making defensive mistakes.

Is that really a coaching problem?  (That’s more in response to cman88’s post).

It certainly can be.  There are plenty of NBA players that don't play good defense.  Even good 2-way players, take plenty of plays off on defense during the regular season.  So how was he hard on Kemba?  Was it reasonable?  Not from a fan's perspective but from a grown man, established NBA star perspective.  Was he also similarly hard on other players or did he give his favorites a pass? 

Stevens has always been a good mid major college coach to me.  Personally I don't think he grew much as an NBA coach.  NBA head coaching is primarily about dealing with players not schemes and Xs and Os.  I couldn't imagine Stevens trying to coach the Nets stars with their difficult personalities.

Form my eye, Kemba had a lot of poor fundamentals. He was a decent on the ball defender, but off the ball, he was horrendous. He frequently just watched, while his man slipped him. He never boxed out, ever. He did other dumb stuff, like get trapped along the sideline just over half court. He got stripped of the ball a lot at the end of games for an all-star point guard. He never was one of those guys who made any game management adjustments. He didn't push the ball in transition.

For an all-star vet, he had no cleverness to his game except when it came to scoring. I could see him drive a coach nuts.

[tazzmaniac]

My money is on TT as the source of a lot of the BS bashing. The "college offense" comment couldn't have come from a core player that's gone to multiple ECF with BS offenses. I wonder if Kevin O'Connor's comments about TT being a locker room problem were accurate after all.

I'm really disappointed that the highest payed player on the team didn't like being held accountable for defensive lapses. BS teams in the past were built off a defense first mentality.

TT + B.Griffin + Kardashians

Is there some overlap socially there? Those two guys might be friends off the court? Or at least know each other socially if not friends as a result.

Maybe make it more likely TT was the guy Blake called and talked to.

You do look at the roster and wonder who Blake might know well enough to call them up and ask them about it. And/or who might know Blake well enough to give a negative/harsh (honest?) response like that.

Doesn’t it make you wonder that Blake would throw his source under the bus by telling a reporter what he was told?  Even if he didn’t name the source it opens speculation.  Someone in casual conversation  says “stay away” and you go to the press with that?   Why would you?  Griffin is a veteran and probably press savvy - what is there to gain by revealing that conversation?  It’s not like there was something scandalous to reveal. I tend to think the story lacks accuracy.

The story doesn't say Blake went to the press.  It says: 

According to a source, Brooklyn’s Blake Griffin asked a Celtics player if he should join the team midseason and was told not to come to Boston because of the apparent dysfunction.

I think it is very likely that Blake said it amongst friends/hanger-ons and one of them leaked it to the press.  The only questions in my mind are which Celtic player talked to Blake.  TT is my guess too.  And was that player telling the truth about the team's culture?  Or did the player have an ax to grind?  Or was it just the player wasn't a good fit in the team's culture?     

[tonydelk]

My money is on TT as the source of a lot of the BS bashing. The "college offense" comment couldn't have come from a core player that's gone to multiple ECF with BS offenses. I wonder if Kevin O'Connor's comments about TT being a locker room problem were accurate after all.

I'm really disappointed that the highest payed player on the team didn't like being held accountable for defensive lapses. BS teams in the past were built off a defense first mentality.

TT + B.Griffin + Kardashians

Is there some overlap socially there? Those two guys might be friends off the court? Or at least know each other socially if not friends as a result.

Maybe make it more likely TT was the guy Blake called and talked to.

You do look at the roster and wonder who Blake might know well enough to call them up and ask them about it. And/or who might know Blake well enough to give a negative/harsh (honest?) response like that.

Doesn’t it make you wonder that Blake would throw his source under the bus by telling a reporter what he was told?  Even if he didn’t name the source it opens speculation.  Someone in casual conversation  says “stay away” and you go to the press with that?   Why would you?  Griffin is a veteran and probably press savvy - what is there to gain by revealing that conversation?  It’s not like there was something scandalous to reveal. I tend to think the story lacks accuracy.

The story doesn't say Blake went to the press.  It says: 

According to a source, Brooklyn’s Blake Griffin asked a Celtics player if he should join the team midseason and was told not to come to Boston because of the apparent dysfunction.

I think it is very likely that Blake said it amongst friends/hanger-ons and one of them leaked it to the press.  The only questions in my mind are which Celtic player talked to Blake.  TT is my guess too.  And was that player telling the truth about the team's culture?  Or did the player have an ax to grind?  Or was it just the player wasn't a good fit in the team's culture?     

Tristan would be my guess as well.  He seems like the guy who would not be afraid to speak his mind if he feels the team he is on isn't a good fit.  He's the only one who didn't play in this system for years.  He was having a bad year and probably blamed it on Stevens and his system.  Looking forward for Mr. Kardashian leaving as well.

[SHAQATTACK]

   I couldn't imagine Stevens trying to coach the Nets stars with their difficult personalities.

I can’t imagine any coach actually coaching them.  Stars do whatever they want.  The NBA is essentially billion dollar pickup games at this point.

Good for Stevens for trying to instruct his players to play the right way.

All this makes you wonder if real coaches like Atkins and Rick Carlisle will ever get another head coach job.    Also makes me wonder if Stevens saw the writing on the wall for traditional type coaching going by the wayside and thought time to get out .  I think even in college , this new way of not coaching will trickle down at the Dukes and Kentucky’s.