Woj Bomb: Kemba, 1st Rounder, & '25 2nd Rounder to OKC for Horford, Brown, 2nd

[jambr380]

Smart and TT to Toronto for S&T Kyle Lowry. 2 years $25 Million


Is there a world where Steven’s can pull this off?

or Brogdon from the pacers!

Not sure why the pacers would do this but Brogdon I felt has always been a perfect fit next to the J's.  It's what I wish Smart would be but Smart just can't consistently shoot as well.

If they can find a taker for Turner, this would actually be a great trade for them.

[BruceBanner18]

Ha -- 10 assists to 43 turnovers for Moses Brown. Nice AST:TO ratio there.

I know nothing of the man but that is a pretty clear indicator he can't do anything other than catch and finish on offense (low skill guy). Also a very bad sign of long term potential. Reliant on becoming a high end defensive player to avoid being a replacement level big man (easy to get / replace) - just an active body.

Devil's advocate, but Tristan Thompson has carved out a decent career as a catch and finish player. 

Comparison

Who knows, maybe he plays for 10 years and marries a Kardashian.

Y’all running out of Kardashians...lol

OT: The All-Kardashian team is actually pretty darn impressive. They are like their own franchise!

Harden, Booker, Simmons , Griffin, Thompson, Clarkson, Kuzma, Retired: Odom, Humphries, McCants, Fox

[RJ87]

Smart and TT to Toronto for S&T Kyle Lowry. 2 years $25 Million


Is there a world where Steven’s can pull this off?

or Brogdon from the pacers!

Not sure why the pacers would do this but Brogdon I felt has always been a perfect fit next to the J's.  It's what I wish Smart would be but Smart just can't consistently shoot as well.

If they can find a taker for Turner, this would actually be a great trade for them.

Fans who were annoyed at Kemba's lack of availability due to injury should probably be wary of Brogdon. Since playing 75 games during his rookie year, he's missed a minimum of 15 games per season since.

[footey]

Ha -- 10 assists to 43 turnovers for Moses Brown. Nice AST:TO ratio there.

I know nothing of the man but that is a pretty clear indicator he can't do anything other than catch and finish on offense (low skill guy). Also a very bad sign of long term potential. Reliant on becoming a high end defensive player to avoid being a replacement level big man (easy to get / replace) - just an active body.

Devil's advocate, but Tristan Thompson has carved out a decent career as a catch and finish player. 

Comparison

Who knows, maybe he plays for 10 years and marries a Kardashian.

Y’all running out of Kardashians...lol

I'm sure they're breeding more as we speak.  There's got to be a cousin or something out there, right?

Kris is single and available.

[Celtics2021]

So it is my understanding that [unless we make/win the Finals], Al's contract is only going to be $14.5M for 22-23. However, due to the potential of his deal, his outgoing salary for matching purposes would still need to count for $26M. Is this correct?

Not overly in love with the deal. I was higher on Kemba than most, but this signals to me that the Cs knew something is more wrong with Kemba's knee than they've let on. The $23M cap savings in 22-23 is a big deal and Moses is an actual decent prospect signed for 3 years (convincing myself he's worth the #16).

It should also give us some flexibility in re-signing Smart, Fournier, and TL. Or trading Smart/TT for a 3rd star. Glad to have Al back in town, but I'll miss Kemba. We are going to need somebody with speed who can break down the defense, even if it is just a no-defense bench player (Ish Smith type). Our backcourt is in a precarious position right now, but I'd imagine at least one more trade is happening with TT or TL.

not quite.  that's if we let him go --> his deal is only 50% guaranteed.  we'd have that salary on the books but no Al playing for us.

I'm not sure which part of my comment you are responding to (contract or outgoing trade). If it is the former, this is what is being reported...at least on the front page of CB:

Horford is owed $27 million for 2021-22. He’s got a somewhat complex final year during 2022-23. Horford is guaranteed $14.5 million for that season. That will jump to $19.5 million if the team he’s on (presumably Boston) makes the 2022 NBA Finals. If Horford’s team wins the championship, that final season becomes fully guaranteed at $26.5 million.

I was corrected earlier this season on this site when I assumed that the $14.5M is what he would be owed if his team cut him, but that he would get the entirety of the $26.5M if he remained on the roster. All the responses I see [across various sites] seem to indicate that he will only be paid $14.5M in that last season if we don't make the Finals. And I really hope that is true, because giving up a mid-1st and a seemingly better player just to save $10M/y doesn't quite seem worth it otherwise.

Whoever "corrected" you was wrong.  Horford's salary in 2022-2023 is $26.5 million.  If he were cut before the start of next year, he would be owed $14.5 million, $19.5 million, or the whole thing, depending on what happens in the postseason.  But if he's on the roster the entire year, or more accurately, until the league-wide guarantee date in mid-January, he gets the whole salary.  He doesn't get a $12 million bonus to his salary for the following season if they win a title this year, because that would be against multiple CBA rules.

I think that the Stevens feels Horford is a better fit for this team -- if I had my guess, he was ticked that we let Horford walk for probably $10 or so million over 4 years -- and that's a major driver as to why this deal was made.  It does conveniently save $11 million or so (including the difference between the draft pick and Moses' Brown salary), which may make the rest of the Hayward TPE usable.

[showtime]

Smart and TT to Toronto for S&T Kyle Lowry. 2 years $25 Million


Is there a world where Steven’s can pull this off?

or Brogdon from the pacers!

Not sure why the pacers would do this but Brogdon I felt has always been a perfect fit next to the J's.  It's what I wish Smart would be but Smart just can't consistently shoot as well.

They wouldn't,  it was just wishful thinking, on my part!

[BruceBanner18]

I think that the Stevens feels Horford is a better fit for this team -- if I had my guess, he was ticked that we let Horford walk for probably $10 or so million over 4 years -- and that's a major driver as to why this deal was made.  It does conveniently save $11 million or so (including the difference between the draft pick and Moses' Brown salary), which may make the rest of the Hayward TPE usable.

Perhaps. It also puts Brad in the position to cut and stretch Horford next summer and have cap space for a max FA

[Roy H.]

I think that the Stevens feels Horford is a better fit for this team -- if I had my guess, he was ticked that we let Horford walk for probably $10 or so million over 4 years -- and that's a major driver as to why this deal was made.  It does conveniently save $11 million or so (including the difference between the draft pick and Moses' Brown salary), which may make the rest of the Hayward TPE usable.

Perhaps. It also puts Brad in the position to cut and stretch Horford next summer and have cap space for a max FA

Yep.  We'd have to make some tough decisions -- not resigning Fournier or Smart, for instance -- but we could now get to max room one year earlier.

[Sketch5]

I don't know why people are craping on the trade so hard. One step back two forward is how I'm seeing this. Horford gives us more flexibility sooner. Or he's an easier contract to move, who say's he's even going to be in Boston this year, or could get moved at the deadline. He also can give more to the team in a weird way. Ball movement was an issue, and Defense, why older, he still can do that since his playing style wasn't based on athletic ability, and coming off the bench would be decent. Look at the Bulls, they had Cartright starting and he looked like he was in his 60's then. LOL

Brown may be a better get than what you could at the 16th pick, especially a big, he's only 21, but similar to Williams, but healthier. 

This also frees up moving TT now or later, or Signing Fourier. SMart, Fourier,Horford and TT would all have movable contracts which we never really had before. It was either BIG money or too little money to grab a decent player in a trade.

I doubt Kemba was going to get much more. TPE form NY, meh, or  a bunch of bench players that could barley be bench players for their former team, meh.

It seems like they are cleaning house and trying to fix some of DAs mess(not entirely his fault only can do so much the last couple seasons). But now instead of building around Hayward, they are building around the J's and cleaning house is the first move. And we don't know what their plans for the next moves will be yet. But this gets us out of a tough contract now and can start building a plan.

[ETNCeltics]

Man I hate giving up that 16th pick.

[Ogaju]

Man I hate giving up that 16th pick.

why? Looking for another pick to rot on the bench?

[nickagneta]

If Ainge and Presti were talking about such a trade for months, I wonder if something was agreed to but neither team wanted to make the trade at the deadline, was that why Horford was shut down?

Presti agreed to shut Al down to preserve him and not get him injured. Ainge agreed to be extra careful with Kemba so he can rehabilitate the knee. And they both agreed to make the trade after the season.

All speculation but it does make you wonder.

As for the trade, I didn't want to salary dump Kemba or trade his dollar bill for a bunch of change. This is a lateral move and I am okay with that. A starting PG for a starting center. Kemba was as important as a scorer on this team as Al will be a defensive back line general/rebounder, who is a great passer and can stretch the floor and make teams pay for collapsing into the paint.

The pick for a young guy, Moses Brown, that is probably better than most guys rated in the 16th spot or below is another lateral move. The 2nd round swaps are lateral moves. All in all a good trade, IMHO.

Now, what happens? Obviously there are more shoes to drop. Thompson has to go. If the team decides to not re-sign Fournier, does that open up a sign and trade possibility that could bring us to just under the $142 million hard cap apron?

I haven't done the math but if Brad doesn't like Fournier or is outbid for his services, I think a sign and trade could be a possibility now.

[jambr380]

So it is my understanding that [unless we make/win the Finals], Al's contract is only going to be $14.5M for 22-23. However, due to the potential of his deal, his outgoing salary for matching purposes would still need to count for $26M. Is this correct?

Not overly in love with the deal. I was higher on Kemba than most, but this signals to me that the Cs knew something is more wrong with Kemba's knee than they've let on. The $23M cap savings in 22-23 is a big deal and Moses is an actual decent prospect signed for 3 years (convincing myself he's worth the #16).

It should also give us some flexibility in re-signing Smart, Fournier, and TL. Or trading Smart/TT for a 3rd star. Glad to have Al back in town, but I'll miss Kemba. We are going to need somebody with speed who can break down the defense, even if it is just a no-defense bench player (Ish Smith type). Our backcourt is in a precarious position right now, but I'd imagine at least one more trade is happening with TT or TL.

not quite.  that's if we let him go --> his deal is only 50% guaranteed.  we'd have that salary on the books but no Al playing for us.

I'm not sure which part of my comment you are responding to (contract or outgoing trade). If it is the former, this is what is being reported...at least on the front page of CB:

Horford is owed $27 million for 2021-22. He’s got a somewhat complex final year during 2022-23. Horford is guaranteed $14.5 million for that season. That will jump to $19.5 million if the team he’s on (presumably Boston) makes the 2022 NBA Finals. If Horford’s team wins the championship, that final season becomes fully guaranteed at $26.5 million.

I was corrected earlier this season on this site when I assumed that the $14.5M is what he would be owed if his team cut him, but that he would get the entirety of the $26.5M if he remained on the roster. All the responses I see [across various sites] seem to indicate that he will only be paid $14.5M in that last season if we don't make the Finals. And I really hope that is true, because giving up a mid-1st and a seemingly better player just to save $10M/y doesn't quite seem worth it otherwise.

Whoever "corrected" you was wrong.  Horford's salary in 2022-2023 is $26.5 million.  If he were cut before the start of next year, he would be owed $14.5 million, $19.5 million, or the whole thing, depending on what happens in the postseason.  But if he's on the roster the entire year, or more accurately, until the league-wide guarantee date in mid-January, he gets the whole salary.  He doesn't get a $12 million bonus to his salary for the following season if they win a title this year, because that would be against multiple CBA rules.

I think that the Stevens feels Horford is a better fit for this team -- if I had my guess, he was ticked that we let Horford walk for probably $10 or so million over 4 years -- and that's a major driver as to why this deal was made.  It does conveniently save $11 million or so (including the difference between the draft pick and Moses' Brown salary), which may make the rest of the Hayward TPE usable.

This was my understanding as well. Fwiw, here is the thread just so people don't think I am living in a revisionist history world of my own.

https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=104324.msg2897559#msg2897559

Hopefully we are able to properly use the flexibility this allows us. Not 100% sure of Al's future with the Cs after this season, though.

[Surferdad]

I’ve read through all 15 pages of this thread and frankly, the negative comments about this trade seem to be nit-picky.  To me, this solves so many issues with cap flexibility, front court improvement, leadership improvement, building on our two young all-stars, etc.

So, I’ll throw out a new angle: I LOVE the fact that this was done quickly.  This gives the entire team some certainty on next season.  Even without another move, the roster is improved.  The key players on the roster now pretty much know where they stand and can prepare to go into training camp with some real optimism.

The coaching decision is next and then everyone in the organization can start working towards next season.

[Moranis]

Brogdon, Lamb

for

Smart, Langford, Thompson