Mike Gorman doesnt think Tatum and Brown can be the leaders for the Celtics

[Celtics4ever]

I watched some of the after game interviews as of late and I think Brown may be the guy.    He needs to set the tone like he did the last two games.   Sure, we lost of the first one, but we've not that good of a team without Tatum and the drop off in talent was steep.

[nickagneta]

Two points:

First, Tatum and Brown are not at the same place as far as leadership goes. It seems pretty obvious to me that Brown is a leader and Tatum is just Tatum. It wasn't just the 20 points in the first quarter, it was the manic intensity on defense and the conscious attempt to bring along other teammates. Brown made sure to get good looks for Tatum and Thompson even as he was clearly taking over the game, and to Tatum's credit, he made a couple of great passes back.

Tatum and Brown play like separate islands, and it is not a good trend. It was nice to see the first quarter play out differently. There was some slippage after that by Tatum where he went back to his old habits, but it's something to build on.

Second, Walker and Smart are not leaders, and it isn't because they've missed games. Walker is a genuinely positive guy and Smart is super competitive, but they display no other forms of leadership. They don't adjust their games to what the team needs. They don't course correct in games when the team stagnates. They don't sense when they need to get another player going. They just do what they do.

I'm not buying that Kemba isn't a leader. Most of the guys on this team were lauding the leadership qualities and positivity that Kemba brought to the team during games and in the locker room before and after games last year. I don't that has changed simply because 10 months passed.

He's a very positive person, and a good person to be around. He probably works hard. That is very different from being a leader.

Think about the qualities you really want in a leader, as opposed to a really good guy. Does he ever get after other guys? Does he see that the team is drifting in the wrong direction and provide the proper adjustments? When the team's energy is low, does he push the team through it?

You really seem to be making assumptions based on the poor performances of other players and attributing them to Kemba's leadership.

Jaylen on Kemba's leadership:

“Just a great leader. When things haven’t gone well, even for myself, Kemba has been the first person to reach out to make sure you come to the meeting with your head up. Next game, he’s always been that guy. Extremely humble, it’s great to have him."

Grant Williams on Kemba's leadership:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bgXBwGlPNV4

Just Google Kemba Walker leadership and there's quotes there about Kemba doing all the things you say he isn't doing.

You can be a great leader but still have little effect on turning a team into a winning team.

[td450]

Two points:

First, Tatum and Brown are not at the same place as far as leadership goes. It seems pretty obvious to me that Brown is a leader and Tatum is just Tatum. It wasn't just the 20 points in the first quarter, it was the manic intensity on defense and the conscious attempt to bring along other teammates. Brown made sure to get good looks for Tatum and Thompson even as he was clearly taking over the game, and to Tatum's credit, he made a couple of great passes back.

Tatum and Brown play like separate islands, and it is not a good trend. It was nice to see the first quarter play out differently. There was some slippage after that by Tatum where he went back to his old habits, but it's something to build on.

Second, Walker and Smart are not leaders, and it isn't because they've missed games. Walker is a genuinely positive guy and Smart is super competitive, but they display no other forms of leadership. They don't adjust their games to what the team needs. They don't course correct in games when the team stagnates. They don't sense when they need to get another player going. They just do what they do.

I'm not buying that Kemba isn't a leader. Most of the guys on this team were lauding the leadership qualities and positivity that Kemba brought to the team during games and in the locker room before and after games last year. I don't that has changed simply because 10 months passed.

He's a very positive person, and a good person to be around. He probably works hard. That is very different from being a leader.

Think about the qualities you really want in a leader, as opposed to a really good guy. Does he ever get after other guys? Does he see that the team is drifting in the wrong direction and provide the proper adjustments? When the team's energy is low, does he push the team through it?

You really seem to be making assumptions based on the poor performances of other players and attributing them to Kemba's leadership.

Jaylen on Kemba's leadership:

“Just a great leader. When things haven’t gone well, even for myself, Kemba has been the first person to reach out to make sure you come to the meeting with your head up. Next game, he’s always been that guy. Extremely humble, it’s great to have him."

Grant Williams on Kemba's leadership:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bgXBwGlPNV4

Just Google Kemba Walker leadership and there's quotes there about Kemba doing all the things you say he isn't doing.

You can be a great leader but still have little effect on turning a team into a winning team.

Again, these quotes fit with him being a positive, encouraging guy and very well liked. If you want to call that a form of leadership, I have no problem with that. But when the team lacks intensity, or is taking bad shots, or isn't moving the ball, or needs to take care of the ball, he isn't that guy on the floor that recognizes what needs to be done and pushes the team to correct. And he never sacrificed his playing style to fit the team's needs.

And lets face it, this team needs that. Its effort is uneven. Players get casual with the ball. They can take a bunch of bad shots in a row. They don't have the consistent intensity of a contender.

[Celtics4ever]

Sounds more like cheerleading for morale than true leadership.  Being a combat veteran, I have higher standards than leadership than most folks.

[gouki88]

Two points:

First, Tatum and Brown are not at the same place as far as leadership goes. It seems pretty obvious to me that Brown is a leader and Tatum is just Tatum. It wasn't just the 20 points in the first quarter, it was the manic intensity on defense and the conscious attempt to bring along other teammates. Brown made sure to get good looks for Tatum and Thompson even as he was clearly taking over the game, and to Tatum's credit, he made a couple of great passes back.

Tatum and Brown play like separate islands, and it is not a good trend. It was nice to see the first quarter play out differently. There was some slippage after that by Tatum where he went back to his old habits, but it's something to build on.

Second, Walker and Smart are not leaders, and it isn't because they've missed games. Walker is a genuinely positive guy and Smart is super competitive, but they display no other forms of leadership. They don't adjust their games to what the team needs. They don't course correct in games when the team stagnates. They don't sense when they need to get another player going. They just do what they do.

How on earth would you know these things?

[td450]

Two points:

First, Tatum and Brown are not at the same place as far as leadership goes. It seems pretty obvious to me that Brown is a leader and Tatum is just Tatum. It wasn't just the 20 points in the first quarter, it was the manic intensity on defense and the conscious attempt to bring along other teammates. Brown made sure to get good looks for Tatum and Thompson even as he was clearly taking over the game, and to Tatum's credit, he made a couple of great passes back.

Tatum and Brown play like separate islands, and it is not a good trend. It was nice to see the first quarter play out differently. There was some slippage after that by Tatum where he went back to his old habits, but it's something to build on.

Second, Walker and Smart are not leaders, and it isn't because they've missed games. Walker is a genuinely positive guy and Smart is super competitive, but they display no other forms of leadership. They don't adjust their games to what the team needs. They don't course correct in games when the team stagnates. They don't sense when they need to get another player going. They just do what they do.

How on earth would you know these things?

Well, that's what the word "display" means. I specifically was referring to the leadership we can all see, as fans.

If you want to point out that there could be some forms of leadership going on that are not on display, then yes, that is a legitimate, but completely unverifiable point.

[SHAQATTACK]

Sounds more like cheerleading for morale than true leadership.  Being a combat veteran, I have higher standards than leadership than most folks.

So True .

[Roy H.]

Two points:

First, Tatum and Brown are not at the same place as far as leadership goes. It seems pretty obvious to me that Brown is a leader and Tatum is just Tatum. It wasn't just the 20 points in the first quarter, it was the manic intensity on defense and the conscious attempt to bring along other teammates. Brown made sure to get good looks for Tatum and Thompson even as he was clearly taking over the game, and to Tatum's credit, he made a couple of great passes back.

Tatum and Brown play like separate islands, and it is not a good trend. It was nice to see the first quarter play out differently. There was some slippage after that by Tatum where he went back to his old habits, but it's something to build on.

Second, Walker and Smart are not leaders, and it isn't because they've missed games. Walker is a genuinely positive guy and Smart is super competitive, but they display no other forms of leadership. They don't adjust their games to what the team needs. They don't course correct in games when the team stagnates. They don't sense when they need to get another player going. They just do what they do.

How on earth would you know these things?

Well, that's what the word "display" means. I specifically was referring to the leadership we can all see, as fans.

If you want to point out that there could be some forms of leadership going on that are not on display, then yes, that is a legitimate, but completely unverifiable point.

I’m not sure that it is unverifiable.  Many players have talked about Kemba’s mentorship, and about Smart’s passion and leadership.  Remember that leadership presents itself in different ways.  KG led through intensity, but he also bullied some guys and wrote others off.  Pierce was tough, but at times immature.  It’s hard to find a “complete package”.

Now, I do think that our locker room could use a few more veterans. Kyrie wasnt wrong when he suggested that we could use a 15 year vet.  Guys like you Udonis Haslam, Juwan Howard and James Jones are worth having on a roster more so than a guy like Carsen Edwards.  It’s even better if those guys can still play a little, like a PJ brown or a Sam Cassell.

[td450]

Two points:

First, Tatum and Brown are not at the same place as far as leadership goes. It seems pretty obvious to me that Brown is a leader and Tatum is just Tatum. It wasn't just the 20 points in the first quarter, it was the manic intensity on defense and the conscious attempt to bring along other teammates. Brown made sure to get good looks for Tatum and Thompson even as he was clearly taking over the game, and to Tatum's credit, he made a couple of great passes back.

Tatum and Brown play like separate islands, and it is not a good trend. It was nice to see the first quarter play out differently. There was some slippage after that by Tatum where he went back to his old habits, but it's something to build on.

Second, Walker and Smart are not leaders, and it isn't because they've missed games. Walker is a genuinely positive guy and Smart is super competitive, but they display no other forms of leadership. They don't adjust their games to what the team needs. They don't course correct in games when the team stagnates. They don't sense when they need to get another player going. They just do what they do.

How on earth would you know these things?

Well, that's what the word "display" means. I specifically was referring to the leadership we can all see, as fans.

If you want to point out that there could be some forms of leadership going on that are not on display, then yes, that is a legitimate, but completely unverifiable point.

I’m not sure that it is unverifiable.  Many players have talked about Kemba’s mentorship, and about Smart’s passion and leadership.  Remember that leadership presents itself in different ways.  KG led through intensity, but he also bullied some guys and wrote others off.  Pierce was tough, but at times immature.  It’s hard to find a “complete package”.

Now, I do think that our locker room could use a few more veterans. Kyrie wasnt wrong when he suggested that we could use a 15 year vet.  Guys like you Udonis Haslam, Juwan Howard and James Jones are worth having on a roster more so than a guy like Carsen Edwards.  It’s even better if those guys can still play a little, like a PJ brown or a Sam Cassell.

I'm sorry, but you are confusing style with substance.

When you say something like "KG led through intensity", that's just his demeanor, or style. What matters is seeing what needs to be done to win, and getting others to follow you to a better outcome. KG got several of his teammates to play harder, work harder, and concentrate more. They won a championship. Being a good example is only half of leadership. How you lead is interesting, but whether you lead is a matter of getting your teammates to be better, somehow.

[nickagneta]

Two points:

First, Tatum and Brown are not at the same place as far as leadership goes. It seems pretty obvious to me that Brown is a leader and Tatum is just Tatum. It wasn't just the 20 points in the first quarter, it was the manic intensity on defense and the conscious attempt to bring along other teammates. Brown made sure to get good looks for Tatum and Thompson even as he was clearly taking over the game, and to Tatum's credit, he made a couple of great passes back.

Tatum and Brown play like separate islands, and it is not a good trend. It was nice to see the first quarter play out differently. There was some slippage after that by Tatum where he went back to his old habits, but it's something to build on.

Second, Walker and Smart are not leaders, and it isn't because they've missed games. Walker is a genuinely positive guy and Smart is super competitive, but they display no other forms of leadership. They don't adjust their games to what the team needs. They don't course correct in games when the team stagnates. They don't sense when they need to get another player going. They just do what they do.

How on earth would you know these things?

Well, that's what the word "display" means. I specifically was referring to the leadership we can all see, as fans.

If you want to point out that there could be some forms of leadership going on that are not on display, then yes, that is a legitimate, but completely unverifiable point.

I’m not sure that it is unverifiable.  Many players have talked about Kemba’s mentorship, and about Smart’s passion and leadership.  Remember that leadership presents itself in different ways.  KG led through intensity, but he also bullied some guys and wrote others off.  Pierce was tough, but at times immature.  It’s hard to find a “complete package”.

Now, I do think that our locker room could use a few more veterans. Kyrie wasnt wrong when he suggested that we could use a 15 year vet.  Guys like you Udonis Haslam, Juwan Howard and James Jones are worth having on a roster more so than a guy like Carsen Edwards.  It’s even better if those guys can still play a little, like a PJ brown or a Sam Cassell.

I'm sorry, but you are confusing style with substance.

When you say something like "KG led through intensity", that's just his demeanor, or style. What matters is seeing what needs to be done to win, and getting others to follow you to a better outcome. KG got several of his teammates to play harder, work harder, and concentrate more. They won a championship. Being a good example is only half of leadership. How you lead is interesting, but whether you lead is a matter of getting your teammates to be better, somehow.

I'm that buying this from you either. Rondo is an excellent PG, a tremendous floor general. His passing and running of an offense is so good it raises the level of all players on the floor on the offensive end.

Rondo is a terrible leader.

You can just as well be a great leader and be put into a position where team mates tune you out and you don't make those players or the team better by leadership. KG in Minny those last 2-3 years is proof of that.

Most of the Celtics have commented on what a great leader Kemba is. Ainge and Stevens have said the same about Smart. Last year this team was really good. No one questioned Kemba or Smart's leadership. The team is struggling and suddenly, even though those same players, coach and GM are saying the same thing, fans think Kemba and Smart aren't leaders.

Maybe, just maybe, due to this horribly messed up season, there are some extenuating circumstances that explain the poor effort and overall performance of the team and it's not the lack of leadership. And a few players are tuning out the team's leaders. I tend to think this more likely than guys that were proven leaders suddenly forgetting how to be a good leader.

[Roy H.]

Two points:

First, Tatum and Brown are not at the same place as far as leadership goes. It seems pretty obvious to me that Brown is a leader and Tatum is just Tatum. It wasn't just the 20 points in the first quarter, it was the manic intensity on defense and the conscious attempt to bring along other teammates. Brown made sure to get good looks for Tatum and Thompson even as he was clearly taking over the game, and to Tatum's credit, he made a couple of great passes back.

Tatum and Brown play like separate islands, and it is not a good trend. It was nice to see the first quarter play out differently. There was some slippage after that by Tatum where he went back to his old habits, but it's something to build on.

Second, Walker and Smart are not leaders, and it isn't because they've missed games. Walker is a genuinely positive guy and Smart is super competitive, but they display no other forms of leadership. They don't adjust their games to what the team needs. They don't course correct in games when the team stagnates. They don't sense when they need to get another player going. They just do what they do.

How on earth would you know these things?

Well, that's what the word "display" means. I specifically was referring to the leadership we can all see, as fans.

If you want to point out that there could be some forms of leadership going on that are not on display, then yes, that is a legitimate, but completely unverifiable point.

I’m not sure that it is unverifiable.  Many players have talked about Kemba’s mentorship, and about Smart’s passion and leadership.  Remember that leadership presents itself in different ways.  KG led through intensity, but he also bullied some guys and wrote others off.  Pierce was tough, but at times immature.  It’s hard to find a “complete package”.

Now, I do think that our locker room could use a few more veterans. Kyrie wasnt wrong when he suggested that we could use a 15 year vet.  Guys like you Udonis Haslam, Juwan Howard and James Jones are worth having on a roster more so than a guy like Carsen Edwards.  It’s even better if those guys can still play a little, like a PJ brown or a Sam Cassell.

I'm sorry, but you are confusing style with substance.

When you say something like "KG led through intensity", that's just his demeanor, or style. What matters is seeing what needs to be done to win, and getting others to follow you to a better outcome. KG got several of his teammates to play harder, work harder, and concentrate more. They won a championship. Being a good example is only half of leadership. How you lead is interesting, but whether you lead is a matter of getting your teammates to be better, somehow.

KG has also punched at least two of his teammates, made another one cry, refused to work out with certain teammates, and usually refused to support his team from the sidelines. 

As Danny said:

"If you don't meet his expectations," says Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge, "he has no use for you."

When Kevin came through those doors on game day, he was angry," says Celtics guard Avery Bradley, who played with Garnett for three seasons. "We couldn't laugh, talk, listen to music. We'd all hide in the training room or the bathroom -- wherever KG wasn't."

A partial list of ex-teammates who have endured the wrath of the Big Ticket includes Glen "Big Baby" Davis, Mason Plumlee, Ray Allen, Wally Szczerbiak, Rajon Rondo, Rasho Nesterovic, Patrick O'Bryant and Deron Williams. Some have survived to be welcomed into Garnett's inner circle; others are forever dead to him.

It was KG's team, his voice, his show, his everything. Anyone who differed was going to be an outcast

Consider former Celtic Patrick O'Bryant, the ninth pick in the 2006 draft. Early in the 2008-09 season, O'Bryant was putting in some post work with Celtics assistant coach Clifford Ray after practice when Garnett summoned him to the other end of the floor. KG wanted to light a fire under the young center, who he felt was too placid. Garnett immediately began berating O'Bryant, criticizing him mercilessly. When O'Bryant didn't react, KG pushed harder. Still nothing. Garnett walked off the court in disgust.

"You know how he is," O'Bryant says. "He was yelling and screaming, trying to get me to scream back, but that's not who I am. I don't need to yell at someone all the way down the court after I dunk. Just because I didn't have a mean look on my face didn't mean I wasn't listening."

From that day forward, those close to the team say, Garnett would go out of his way to bully O'Bryant. Normally a pass-first player, KG would take the ball forcefully to the hole if O'Bryant was guarding him in practice. He subjected him to a nonstop stream of insults to break him. "Patrick would miss a shot, and he'd just torture him," Powe says. "Kevin wasn't going to forgive him. He'd talk crazy to him. We told Patrick, 'Don't let him get under your skin,' but it was too late."

"Kevin destroyed him," Rivers says. "It was mean-spirited."

Sometimes a player came in, Ainge says, "and it was a little scary to have KG around him. His work ethic was unquestioned, but he could be intimidating -- and destructive -- if the player didn't respond in the right way."

So, was KG a good leader?  Is that the guy others should emulate?  I'm not sure he is, at least solely.  Destructive, mean-spirited, bullying, intimidating...  That's not going to work on most teams.  KG couldn't motivate Mark Blount and Ricky Davis. 

Guys were scared of KG.  Guys look up to Kemba and Marcus.  A team needs a mix, and I'm not sure that it's fair at all to say that Kemba and Smart aren't leaders.  Nor is it fair, necessarily, to say that JT and JB aren't up to the task. 

[coco]

I would seriously consider trading Brown to Sacramento for Fox.
Tatum needs a guy with high motor.

[SparzWizard]

Two points:

First, Tatum and Brown are not at the same place as far as leadership goes. It seems pretty obvious to me that Brown is a leader and Tatum is just Tatum. It wasn't just the 20 points in the first quarter, it was the manic intensity on defense and the conscious attempt to bring along other teammates. Brown made sure to get good looks for Tatum and Thompson even as he was clearly taking over the game, and to Tatum's credit, he made a couple of great passes back.

Tatum and Brown play like separate islands, and it is not a good trend. It was nice to see the first quarter play out differently. There was some slippage after that by Tatum where he went back to his old habits, but it's something to build on.

Second, Walker and Smart are not leaders, and it isn't because they've missed games. Walker is a genuinely positive guy and Smart is super competitive, but they display no other forms of leadership. They don't adjust their games to what the team needs. They don't course correct in games when the team stagnates. They don't sense when they need to get another player going. They just do what they do.

How on earth would you know these things?

Well, that's what the word "display" means. I specifically was referring to the leadership we can all see, as fans.

If you want to point out that there could be some forms of leadership going on that are not on display, then yes, that is a legitimate, but completely unverifiable point.

I’m not sure that it is unverifiable.  Many players have talked about Kemba’s mentorship, and about Smart’s passion and leadership.  Remember that leadership presents itself in different ways.  KG led through intensity, but he also bullied some guys and wrote others off.  Pierce was tough, but at times immature.  It’s hard to find a “complete package”.

Now, I do think that our locker room could use a few more veterans. Kyrie wasnt wrong when he suggested that we could use a 15 year vet.  Guys like you Udonis Haslam, Juwan Howard and James Jones are worth having on a roster more so than a guy like Carsen Edwards.  It’s even better if those guys can still play a little, like a PJ brown or a Sam Cassell.

I'm sorry, but you are confusing style with substance.

When you say something like "KG led through intensity", that's just his demeanor, or style. What matters is seeing what needs to be done to win, and getting others to follow you to a better outcome. KG got several of his teammates to play harder, work harder, and concentrate more. They won a championship. Being a good example is only half of leadership. How you lead is interesting, but whether you lead is a matter of getting your teammates to be better, somehow.

KG has also punched at least two of his teammates, made another one cry, refused to work out with certain teammates, and usually refused to support his team from the sidelines. 

As Danny said:

"If you don't meet his expectations," says Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge, "he has no use for you."

When Kevin came through those doors on game day, he was angry," says Celtics guard Avery Bradley, who played with Garnett for three seasons. "We couldn't laugh, talk, listen to music. We'd all hide in the training room or the bathroom -- wherever KG wasn't."

A partial list of ex-teammates who have endured the wrath of the Big Ticket includes Glen "Big Baby" Davis, Mason Plumlee, Ray Allen, Wally Szczerbiak, Rajon Rondo, Rasho Nesterovic, Patrick O'Bryant and Deron Williams. Some have survived to be welcomed into Garnett's inner circle; others are forever dead to him.

It was KG's team, his voice, his show, his everything. Anyone who differed was going to be an outcast

Consider former Celtic Patrick O'Bryant, the ninth pick in the 2006 draft. Early in the 2008-09 season, O'Bryant was putting in some post work with Celtics assistant coach Clifford Ray after practice when Garnett summoned him to the other end of the floor. KG wanted to light a fire under the young center, who he felt was too placid. Garnett immediately began berating O'Bryant, criticizing him mercilessly. When O'Bryant didn't react, KG pushed harder. Still nothing. Garnett walked off the court in disgust.

"You know how he is," O'Bryant says. "He was yelling and screaming, trying to get me to scream back, but that's not who I am. I don't need to yell at someone all the way down the court after I dunk. Just because I didn't have a mean look on my face didn't mean I wasn't listening."

From that day forward, those close to the team say, Garnett would go out of his way to bully O'Bryant. Normally a pass-first player, KG would take the ball forcefully to the hole if O'Bryant was guarding him in practice. He subjected him to a nonstop stream of insults to break him. "Patrick would miss a shot, and he'd just torture him," Powe says. "Kevin wasn't going to forgive him. He'd talk crazy to him. We told Patrick, 'Don't let him get under your skin,' but it was too late."

"Kevin destroyed him," Rivers says. "It was mean-spirited."

Sometimes a player came in, Ainge says, "and it was a little scary to have KG around him. His work ethic was unquestioned, but he could be intimidating -- and destructive -- if the player didn't respond in the right way."

So, was KG a good leader?  Is that the guy others should emulate?  I'm not sure he is, at least solely.  Destructive, mean-spirited, bullying, intimidating...  That's not going to work on most teams.  KG couldn't motivate Mark Blount and Ricky Davis. 

Guys were scared of KG.  Guys look up to Kemba and Marcus.  A team needs a mix, and I'm not sure that it's fair at all to say that Kemba and Smart aren't leaders.  Nor is it fair, necessarily, to say that JT and JB aren't up to the task.

Lol there were other teams that thought KG was a fake-tough guy, all-talk no action typa player. If only they'd won 2 or 3 more titles under him and PP34 but too bad it didn't happen.

[tenn_smoothie]

Uh, Brown has a high motor.

[Moranis]

Two points:

First, Tatum and Brown are not at the same place as far as leadership goes. It seems pretty obvious to me that Brown is a leader and Tatum is just Tatum. It wasn't just the 20 points in the first quarter, it was the manic intensity on defense and the conscious attempt to bring along other teammates. Brown made sure to get good looks for Tatum and Thompson even as he was clearly taking over the game, and to Tatum's credit, he made a couple of great passes back.

Tatum and Brown play like separate islands, and it is not a good trend. It was nice to see the first quarter play out differently. There was some slippage after that by Tatum where he went back to his old habits, but it's something to build on.

Second, Walker and Smart are not leaders, and it isn't because they've missed games. Walker is a genuinely positive guy and Smart is super competitive, but they display no other forms of leadership. They don't adjust their games to what the team needs. They don't course correct in games when the team stagnates. They don't sense when they need to get another player going. They just do what they do.

How on earth would you know these things?

Well, that's what the word "display" means. I specifically was referring to the leadership we can all see, as fans.

If you want to point out that there could be some forms of leadership going on that are not on display, then yes, that is a legitimate, but completely unverifiable point.

I’m not sure that it is unverifiable.  Many players have talked about Kemba’s mentorship, and about Smart’s passion and leadership.  Remember that leadership presents itself in different ways.  KG led through intensity, but he also bullied some guys and wrote others off.  Pierce was tough, but at times immature.  It’s hard to find a “complete package”.

Now, I do think that our locker room could use a few more veterans. Kyrie wasnt wrong when he suggested that we could use a 15 year vet.  Guys like you Udonis Haslam, Juwan Howard and James Jones are worth having on a roster more so than a guy like Carsen Edwards.  It’s even better if those guys can still play a little, like a PJ brown or a Sam Cassell.

I'm sorry, but you are confusing style with substance.

When you say something like "KG led through intensity", that's just his demeanor, or style. What matters is seeing what needs to be done to win, and getting others to follow you to a better outcome. KG got several of his teammates to play harder, work harder, and concentrate more. They won a championship. Being a good example is only half of leadership. How you lead is interesting, but whether you lead is a matter of getting your teammates to be better, somehow.

KG has also punched at least two of his teammates, made another one cry, refused to work out with certain teammates, and usually refused to support his team from the sidelines. 

As Danny said:

"If you don't meet his expectations," says Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge, "he has no use for you."

When Kevin came through those doors on game day, he was angry," says Celtics guard Avery Bradley, who played with Garnett for three seasons. "We couldn't laugh, talk, listen to music. We'd all hide in the training room or the bathroom -- wherever KG wasn't."

A partial list of ex-teammates who have endured the wrath of the Big Ticket includes Glen "Big Baby" Davis, Mason Plumlee, Ray Allen, Wally Szczerbiak, Rajon Rondo, Rasho Nesterovic, Patrick O'Bryant and Deron Williams. Some have survived to be welcomed into Garnett's inner circle; others are forever dead to him.

It was KG's team, his voice, his show, his everything. Anyone who differed was going to be an outcast

Consider former Celtic Patrick O'Bryant, the ninth pick in the 2006 draft. Early in the 2008-09 season, O'Bryant was putting in some post work with Celtics assistant coach Clifford Ray after practice when Garnett summoned him to the other end of the floor. KG wanted to light a fire under the young center, who he felt was too placid. Garnett immediately began berating O'Bryant, criticizing him mercilessly. When O'Bryant didn't react, KG pushed harder. Still nothing. Garnett walked off the court in disgust.

"You know how he is," O'Bryant says. "He was yelling and screaming, trying to get me to scream back, but that's not who I am. I don't need to yell at someone all the way down the court after I dunk. Just because I didn't have a mean look on my face didn't mean I wasn't listening."

From that day forward, those close to the team say, Garnett would go out of his way to bully O'Bryant. Normally a pass-first player, KG would take the ball forcefully to the hole if O'Bryant was guarding him in practice. He subjected him to a nonstop stream of insults to break him. "Patrick would miss a shot, and he'd just torture him," Powe says. "Kevin wasn't going to forgive him. He'd talk crazy to him. We told Patrick, 'Don't let him get under your skin,' but it was too late."

"Kevin destroyed him," Rivers says. "It was mean-spirited."

Sometimes a player came in, Ainge says, "and it was a little scary to have KG around him. His work ethic was unquestioned, but he could be intimidating -- and destructive -- if the player didn't respond in the right way."

So, was KG a good leader?  Is that the guy others should emulate?  I'm not sure he is, at least solely.  Destructive, mean-spirited, bullying, intimidating...  That's not going to work on most teams.  KG couldn't motivate Mark Blount and Ricky Davis. 

Guys were scared of KG.  Guys look up to Kemba and Marcus.  A team needs a mix, and I'm not sure that it's fair at all to say that Kemba and Smart aren't leaders.  Nor is it fair, necessarily, to say that JT and JB aren't up to the task.

KG was always a bully and was always about himself.  He only picked on weaker younger players.  He never went after guys like Shaq.  Just a pure classic bully under any definition of the word.  And I do believe that is a large reason why his Wolves teams always flamed out.  It was only when two guys came in that didn't put up KG's crap that the Wolves had a successful season and they both basically bolted the minute they had a chance.  KG was a great player, but he was a terrible teammate.  That held true in Boston as well, but Pierce and Allen didn't put up with his crap either and the 3 of them collectively were just better than everyone else.  I actually think KG is pretty similar to Michael Jordan personality wise, KG just wasn't as good as Jordan so he didn't win like him.