Author Topic: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.  (Read 10400 times)

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Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2021, 07:31:52 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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So why would a superstar like Tatum stay?


I think the only reason a guy like Tatum would re-sign after his second contract is if the team is already a top contender.  You can be sure that some other team will be ready to offer him a chance to team up with one or more All-Stars in a more enticing market.
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Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2021, 09:09:32 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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So why would a superstar like Tatum stay?


I think the only reason a guy like Tatum would re-sign after his second contract is if the team is already a top contender.  You can be sure that some other team will be ready to offer him a chance to team up with one or more All-Stars in a more enticing market.

There are also emotional and convenience reasons such as team loyalty (wanting to stay with one team his whole career), public spotlight (Being the face of the Celtics, you will never be in the shadows) and personal convenience (not having to relocate family). 


Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2021, 09:49:55 PM »

Offline footey

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Brad Stevens hasn't been the answer since losing in the 2018 East Finals to LeBron in Game 7.

Wasn't he also on the hot seat when the #1 seeded Celtics were down 0-2 to the #8 seeded Bulls in 2017? It took an injured Rondo to bounce back and regain control of that series. He was like 2-8 or 2-10 in the playoffs
Since his 2-10 playoff start he is 35-26.

Yes, and Grant Williams was a good 3 point shooter after going 0-a million, LOL. 

Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2021, 09:52:43 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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And this idea that Brad is too passive on the job or that he lacks passion is baseless. Someone can be passionate about something and still keep an even keel on their emotions and actions while doing that something. The old saying of "don't judge a book by its cover" comes to mind. Just because Brad approaches stuff like press conferences and pre-game speeches shown on TV in a calm, professional manner doesn't mean he doesn't have a passion for what he is doing and a passion for winning. I truly believe that to become one of the best at anything in the world at what you do, especially in sports, you have to be passionate about it, otherwise you wouldn't have the drive to become that good at it.

I disagree.  It's not baseless at all.  You may argue that the the idea is based on an incomplete picture, and that's probably true. But you can't say it's baseless, because there are clearly PLENTY of circumstances that people cite that give off this impression - many of which you just listed as examples. 

You can't explicitly list things that people use as the basis for their conclusion, and then go on to say their conclusion is baseless. If it was baseless then you wouldn't have examples to list!

This then follows straight into the complaints about how Stevens acts on the sidelines, how he treats his players and what he "allows" his players to do. Some NBA coaches get very loud and very animated on the sidelines, get loud and scream at refs all game and during timeouts reams his players a new one. But, during a game, the cameras don't focus exclusively on Brad. During games, fans don't exclusively watch the coach. I've sat not too far behind the Boston bench during home games, and Brad admonishes his players and he works the refs. He simply doesn't do it in a ridiculously loud, obnoxious, condescending and animated manner. Brad gets loud a bunch during games, but you simply don't see and hear it because the cameras aren't drawn to him because isn't getting loud while also looking like he is a crazy old man going nuts, pulling his hair out and turning red in anger because you are on his lawn.

I disagree. 

There are multiple guys on this roster who REGULARLY play selfish basketball.  Holding the ball too much, failing to move the ball when other guys are open, forcing bad shots when another guy has a better shot, committing lazy unforced turnovers, etc.  Often these events occur at key moments  in games. 

And the vast majority of the time Brad just just lets it go with minimal (if any) consequence.

I don't care if he goes over and has a quiet chat to the guy the next time he subs out.  I don't care if he walks up to the sideline and makes a couple of subtle comments.  It's clearly not enough of a consequence for said players to give a crap.

First time, second time...fine.  But when you reach the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th time that the same guys repeatedly do the same things then it becomes clear that more extreme consequences are needed in order for them to learn a lesson and be dissuaded from doing the same thing in future. 

Marcus Smart (possibly one of the worst shooters at the guard position in NBA history) has attempted 5+ three point attempts in 16 of the Celtics last 20 games.  If you take out the fluke 7-10 night (which is at beast a once-per-season outlier) he's shot 34% from three over those games.

He's attempted 8+ three pointers 6 times over that stretch, and if you (again) take out the fluke 7-10 outlier he's shooting 29% over the remaining 5 of those games. 

I can give this scenario a BIT more of a pass when it's Brown, Tatum or Kemba because these guys are quality shooters and high level scorers - it's still bad, but at least volume shooting is part of their job description.  Smart is a role player who's role is to defend and handle/distribute the ball, so when he's out there forcing up volume threes he's not doing his job.

Whatever sweet nothings Brad may be whispering to Smart clearly aren't getting through, so at this point you need to be firm and send a message that if he's going to go out there and play the wrong way then he's going to get pulled out of the game and sent to the bench. I don't know if I have once seen Brad do this.   If you bench the guy when he plays the wrong way and he STILL keeps doing it then he clearly doesn't care what the coach says, so you talk to your GM and ask him to work out a trade to get him that player the hell out of there so he can be some other coach's problem.

This alone is (IMO) perfectly clear evidence that Brad does not have the balls to do what needs to be done in order to hold his players accountable for the things they do wrong.  I can pretty much GUARANTEE you if Smart shot 2-10 under Doc Rivers, Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich he'd be pulled from the game and benched.

Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2021, 09:56:18 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Have been a long-time lurker here, but definitely wanted to comment on this topic.  Thank you for the great and detailed post!  I am a Stevens fan and think he is one of the top 5-10 coaches in the game.  People want loud and emotional, but that is not really turning out great for a guy like Stan Van Gundy or even how is Nick Nurse doing now?  Seems like Siakam has tuned him out at this stage too and that team has tumbled without even losing any one major this past year whereas we lost Hayward (obviously Kawhi before, but just comparing last year to this year).  So I think that criticism is really a silly one, but I do think he has had a tougher time getting players into specific roles over the past few seasons than earlier.  If you look at how he got someone like Jerebko to succeed at his role whereas now it seems he has to do a lot of tinkering and that leads to these guys really not being in a rhythm as to if they will play or not.  I know this is mainly due to injuries, COVID and lack of talent, but this to me is my biggest issue with him and I think has led to some chemistry issues as someone like Langford starts and plays 30 minutes and then is a DNP the next night.  I still think that is moreso due to reasons out of his control, but I can understand that complaint with him entirely. 

With all of this being said, I do think if we do not see the team have a bounce back year next season that he will be very much on the hot seat.  I do not see a chance he gets fired after this season, but if we have similar results next season then I think it is very likely.  And honestly, it could just come down to him not being the right coach for these guys at this stage.  I still think he is a really great coach, but sometimes you do need a change of voice for the team and sometimes a new coach with a different energy pushes the players a bit more and it is possible the team needs that.  I just think it is tough to look at a guy like Thibs and say how great he is.  He is doing great this year, but four years ago we would have laughed at the thought of him coaching this team because I do think there is a time and a place where some coaches will succeed in one place, but not another.  There is no one that I feel strongly about replacing him at this stage and even someone like Thibs I would not be in favor of now, but if we have a similar season next season then I think it will be time to look elsewhere whether right or wrong.  That is just the way it goes, but I am hoping it does not come to that as I still have faith in him with this team.  Sorry for rambling on this post!

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Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2021, 09:56:43 PM »

Offline footey

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I think Brad is a good coach.

But he has failed this season so far.

He has failed to hold his stars accountable when they play selfishly.  It has destroyed the team culture that he so carefully and skillfully crafted over 6 seasons. It's a shame. But it is a fact. 

Strangely, I still think this team can turn it around and at least make a dent in the playoffs.  I think that the return of Rob, and Fournier getting his legs back, we still have a chance to get past the first round.  So I will withhold calls for the firing of Brad.  Let's see how the season plays out.

Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2021, 10:08:01 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Have been a long-time lurker here, but definitely wanted to comment on this topic.  Thank you for the great and detailed post!  I am a Stevens fan and think he is one of the top 5-10 coaches in the game.  People want loud and emotional, but that is not really turning out great for a guy like Stan Van Gundy or even how is Nick Nurse doing now?  Seems like Siakam has tuned him out at this stage too and that team has tumbled without even losing any one major this past year whereas we lost Hayward (obviously Kawhi before, but just comparing last year to this year).  So I think that criticism is really a silly one, but I do think he has had a tougher time getting players into specific roles over the past few seasons than earlier.  If you look at how he got someone like Jerebko to succeed at his role whereas now it seems he has to do a lot of tinkering and that leads to these guys really not being in a rhythm as to if they will play or not.  I know this is mainly due to injuries, COVID and lack of talent, but this to me is my biggest issue with him and I think has led to some chemistry issues as someone like Langford starts and plays 30 minutes and then is a DNP the next night.  I still think that is moreso due to reasons out of his control, but I can understand that complaint with him entirely. 

With all of this being said, I do think if we do not see the team have a bounce back year next season that he will be very much on the hot seat.  I do not see a chance he gets fired after this season, but if we have similar results next season then I think it is very likely.  And honestly, it could just come down to him not being the right coach for these guys at this stage.  I still think he is a really great coach, but sometimes you do need a change of voice for the team and sometimes a new coach with a different energy pushes the players a bit more and it is possible the team needs that.  I just think it is tough to look at a guy like Thibs and say how great he is.  He is doing great this year, but four years ago we would have laughed at the thought of him coaching this team because I do think there is a time and a place where some coaches will succeed in one place, but not another.  There is no one that I feel strongly about replacing him at this stage and even someone like Thibs I would not be in favor of now, but if we have a similar season next season then I think it will be time to look elsewhere whether right or wrong.  That is just the way it goes, but I am hoping it does not come to that as I still have faith in him with this team.  Sorry for rambling on this post!

I think this is essentially right. look you arent firing a guy after one bad year, especially when he just made the ECF. However.....

Its not just one bad year. the team was a huge disappointment two years ago as well, so its 2 out of the last 3 that have been problematic. He's no going anywhere this offseason, but if next year the team underperforms then he's gotta go.

He's a good coach, maybe even a great one, but a bad year next years leaves Brown with two years on his deal, Tatum with 3 (and a player option), and 3 out of 4 years as "down." Gotta shake it up at that point.

Honestly I think they bounce back, still might THIS year, but nobody should be safe.

Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2021, 11:39:47 PM »

Offline Somebody

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Now I know a bunch of you are going to call me a Stevens apologist. I am not. I have a bunch of criticism of him. I am a big believer of getting the hot hand the ball which Stevens doesn't appear to believe. I hate that he puts his stars in corners for long stretches of games while clearly inferior players dominate the ball up top playing a pick and roll/pop weave to create offense. I hate that he isn't running sets where his best players are interacting with the other best players on the team. I hate that at times he tries to let the players work things out on the court for way too long to the detriment of the team. I am befuddled by some of his on court 5 man units. I don't like that he seems to not be able to maximize true size during his time here. I hate that he seems to have no influence on getting his team prepared to come out strong and play great during matinee games. I think he wasn't prepared to handle a bad locker room a couple years ago and it lead to a terrible end of the season. And there are other things, but they are minor and not worth listing here.
I mean, these are pretty much my criticisms of Brad? ???
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Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2021, 12:15:43 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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I think Brad is a good coach.

But he has failed this season so far.

He has failed to hold his stars accountable when they play selfishly.  It has destroyed the team culture that he so carefully and skillfully crafted over 6 seasons. It's a shame. But it is a fact. 

Strangely, I still think this team can turn it around and at least make a dent in the playoffs.  I think that the return of Rob, and Fournier getting his legs back, we still have a chance to get past the first round.  So I will withhold calls for the firing of Brad.  Let's see how the season plays out.

This is the point right here.

The Brad apologists seem to think everybody who wants Brad gone thinks that he is a terrible coach.  I don't think that's the case at all.  I think every coach in the NBA has strengths and weaknesses, just like players.  There are things they excel at, things they struggle at.  Situations they excel in, situations they struggle in.

a) There is the scenario where you have a team of guys who are very offensively oriented, and you want a strong offensive coach who can make the most of that.

b) There is the scenario where you have a team of guys who are very defensively oriented, and you want a strong defensive coach who can make the most of that.

c) There are scenarios where you may have a young rebuilding team filled with young prospects, and you want a team who can help them grow and develop their talents. 

d) There are scenarios where you may have a team of seasoned vets with egos, you're in "Championhip or bust" mode, and you want a seasoned coach who you know your veterans are going to respect / listen to because he's got NBA Finals experience (either as a player or as a coach) and has been where they want to go.

I think this Celtics team right now is in the process of moving from situation C to situation D, and as a result I think their coaching requirements are starting to change.  Brad is a very intelligent guy who knows the game, no question about that.  But he's very modest / mild mannered, he's not much of a disciplinarian, he's not that much older then some NBA players. 

But most importantly of all, Brad's never actually played an NBA game.  Players on the roster may well think they know better then he does because hes never actually played the game on their level, and it's hard for me to actually criticise them for thinking that.  It's very different when you have a coach like Doc Rivers who:

- Spent 13 years as a player in the NBA
- Played in 80+ career playoff games
- Played alongside NBA legends like Dominique Wilkins, Patrick Ewing and David Robinson
- Has coached in over 1,600 NBA games, including a championship team and multiple NBA Finals teams

When a guy with that kind of record speaks to his players, I think it's much harder for them to ignore him...because he's been there, and he knows what it takes.

Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2021, 12:43:01 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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very interesting and astute take.

Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2021, 12:51:32 AM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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Tonite vs OKC, Marcus Smart jacked up 10 3-pointers, making one. The team shot a ridiculous 49 3-pointers. I'm fine with Stevens being composed and being a teacher more than a screaming disciplinarian. But saying that the guy saves his player correction for film sessions and practice does not fly with me. Smart is making the same mistakes he always has for several seasons, maybe growing worse. Tatum and Brown keep forcing their offense into traffic and turning the ball over. Sure a rookie needs time to grow, but these other guys should be making less mistakes with each passing season. Yes, Tatum and Brown have developed into all-stars, but they continue to make the same dumb decisions over and over. So Brad's calm practice instruction is not making any difference. He doesn't have to jerk players in and out and scream in their face, but allowing Marcus Smart to record a 1 - 10 from three game is the definition of zero accountability.
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Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2021, 01:20:11 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think Brad is a good coach.

But he has failed this season so far.

He has failed to hold his stars accountable when they play selfishly.  It has destroyed the team culture that he so carefully and skillfully crafted over 6 seasons. It's a shame. But it is a fact. 

Strangely, I still think this team can turn it around and at least make a dent in the playoffs.  I think that the return of Rob, and Fournier getting his legs back, we still have a chance to get past the first round.  So I will withhold calls for the firing of Brad.  Let's see how the season plays out.

This is the point right here.

The Brad apologists seem to think everybody who wants Brad gone thinks that he is a terrible coach.  I don't think that's the case at all.  I think every coach in the NBA has strengths and weaknesses, just like players.  There are things they excel at, things they struggle at.  Situations they excel in, situations they struggle in.

a) There is the scenario where you have a team of guys who are very offensively oriented, and you want a strong offensive coach who can make the most of that.

b) There is the scenario where you have a team of guys who are very defensively oriented, and you want a strong defensive coach who can make the most of that.

c) There are scenarios where you may have a young rebuilding team filled with young prospects, and you want a team who can help them grow and develop their talents. 

d) There are scenarios where you may have a team of seasoned vets with egos, you're in "Championhip or bust" mode, and you want a seasoned coach who you know your veterans are going to respect / listen to because he's got NBA Finals experience (either as a player or as a coach) and has been where they want to go.

I think this Celtics team right now is in the process of moving from situation C to situation D, and as a result I think their coaching requirements are starting to change.  Brad is a very intelligent guy who knows the game, no question about that.  But he's very modest / mild mannered, he's not much of a disciplinarian, he's not that much older then some NBA players. 

But most importantly of all, Brad's never actually played an NBA game.  Players on the roster may well think they know better then he does because hes never actually played the game on their level, and it's hard for me to actually criticise them for thinking that.  It's very different when you have a coach like Doc Rivers who:

- Spent 13 years as a player in the NBA
- Played in 80+ career playoff games
- Played alongside NBA legends like Dominique Wilkins, Patrick Ewing and David Robinson
- Has coached in over 1,600 NBA games, including a championship team and multiple NBA Finals teams

When a guy with that kind of record speaks to his players, I think it's much harder for them to ignore him...because he's been there, and he knows what it takes.


Greg Popovich

Erik Spoelstra

Phil Jackson

Nick Nurse

Never played in the NBA.


Not to mention guys like

George Karl

Don Nelson

Rick Carlisle

Rick Adelman


Not exactly stars during.their time as players.
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Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2021, 01:23:45 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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Phil Jackson played for the Knicks!

Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2021, 03:46:41 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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I think Brad is a good coach.

But he has failed this season so far.

He has failed to hold his stars accountable when they play selfishly.  It has destroyed the team culture that he so carefully and skillfully crafted over 6 seasons. It's a shame. But it is a fact. 

Strangely, I still think this team can turn it around and at least make a dent in the playoffs.  I think that the return of Rob, and Fournier getting his legs back, we still have a chance to get past the first round.  So I will withhold calls for the firing of Brad.  Let's see how the season plays out.

This is the point right here.

The Brad apologists seem to think everybody who wants Brad gone thinks that he is a terrible coach.  I don't think that's the case at all.  I think every coach in the NBA has strengths and weaknesses, just like players.  There are things they excel at, things they struggle at.  Situations they excel in, situations they struggle in.

a) There is the scenario where you have a team of guys who are very offensively oriented, and you want a strong offensive coach who can make the most of that.

b) There is the scenario where you have a team of guys who are very defensively oriented, and you want a strong defensive coach who can make the most of that.

c) There are scenarios where you may have a young rebuilding team filled with young prospects, and you want a team who can help them grow and develop their talents. 

d) There are scenarios where you may have a team of seasoned vets with egos, you're in "Championhip or bust" mode, and you want a seasoned coach who you know your veterans are going to respect / listen to because he's got NBA Finals experience (either as a player or as a coach) and has been where they want to go.

I think this Celtics team right now is in the process of moving from situation C to situation D, and as a result I think their coaching requirements are starting to change.  Brad is a very intelligent guy who knows the game, no question about that.  But he's very modest / mild mannered, he's not much of a disciplinarian, he's not that much older then some NBA players. 

But most importantly of all, Brad's never actually played an NBA game.  Players on the roster may well think they know better then he does because hes never actually played the game on their level, and it's hard for me to actually criticise them for thinking that.  It's very different when you have a coach like Doc Rivers who:

- Spent 13 years as a player in the NBA
- Played in 80+ career playoff games
- Played alongside NBA legends like Dominique Wilkins, Patrick Ewing and David Robinson
- Has coached in over 1,600 NBA games, including a championship team and multiple NBA Finals teams

When a guy with that kind of record speaks to his players, I think it's much harder for them to ignore him...because he's been there, and he knows what it takes.


Greg Popovich

Erik Spoelstra

Phil Jackson

Nick Nurse

Never played in the NBA.

Phil Jackson played around 10 seasons in the NBA.  I don't think he was anything special, but he did play. 

Greg Popovich didn't play in the NBA, but he spent 6 years as an NBA assistant coach before he got his first head coach job.  When he did get started in San Antonio he had an NBA legend (in David Robinson) on the roster who I expect probably helped keep guys in line.  It was also a different era, the league didn't have this "empower the players" mentality that it has today. 

Erik Spoelstra was an NBA assistant in Miami for 11 years so he was a well established figure in Miami before he was given the reigns.  That includes the first 5 seasons of Dwyane Wade's career.  I imagine that helped a lot in him making the transition.  I also don't think Spolestra ever really needed to be that much of a presence for those Miami teams, as he had outpoken veterans like Lebron, Wade and Haslem there helping to keep guys accountable. 

Nick Nurse as far as I'm concerned is a moot point.  He became head coach of the Raptors the same year that happened to bring in Kawhi Leonard, and even then they almost list to the 76ers in the ECF before "fluking" a finals win against a Warriors team that was missing like half their starters.  They underachieved the following year (losing to the Celtics in the East semis) have haven't looked too good this year either.
 
Brad Stevens went straight to being a Celtics head coach at around the age of 38 years and did so with zero NBA experience as either a player or coach, and no real outspoken veteran leaders by his side to help keep players in check.  Kyrie? Nope, too crazy.  Horford and Hayward? Nope, both too quiet/nice.   The closest thing to a respected veteran leader this team's had in recent years was honestly probably Isaiah Thomas.

Maybe if the team had one of those tough veteran leaders on the team then they could keep guys in check, and it wouldn't need to come from Brad.  But who?

Re: The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2021, 07:21:02 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Phil Jackson played around 10 seasons in the NBA.  I don't think he was anything special, but he did play. 

Phil Jackson only took loaded teams to coach.   Genius at managing talent but he had a genius on his coaching staff that did all the X and O stuff called Tex Winters.  He never built a team up.

Phil you had to be joking,  I know you know this to be case.