The reason Brad Stevens might not be the coach you think he is.

[SparzWizard]

Brad Stevens hasn't been the answer since losing in the 2018 East Finals to LeBron in Game 7.

Wasn't he also on the hot seat when the #1 seeded Celtics were down 0-2 to the #8 seeded Bulls in 2017? It took an injured Rondo to bounce back and regain control of that series. He was like 2-8 or 2-10 in the playoffs

[nickagneta]

Brad Stevens hasn't been the answer since losing in the 2018 East Finals to LeBron in Game 7.

Wasn't he also on the hot seat when the #1 seeded Celtics were down 0-2 to the #8 seeded Bulls in 2017? It took an injured Rondo to bounce back and regain control of that series. He was like 2-8 or 2-10 in the playoffs

Since his 2-10 playoff start he is 35-26.

[PhoSita]

So it’s Ainge’s fault, right? Or are you cool with 10 years without a finals appearance or 12 years without a chip?

I do think that Ainge has earned some criticism and some scrutiny given the way he's managed the cap and how the team has seen a talent drain every season for a few years now.  A lot of it has been outside his control, I think, but he's made some mistakes and taken some risks that didn't pay off.  Right now I don't love the position that the Celts are in with regard to the cap and a limited set of options for improving the roster.  Very big shift from where they were 2-3 years ago.


As for the "are you cool without a finals appearance or a championship?" largely my answer is yes.  I don't think the Celtics are a marquee franchise in the eyes of most NBA fans nor particularly in the eyes of most NBA players.  It is only from the Bostonian / New England perspective that we see the Celtics as a franchise that should be dominating the league and that the absence of such dominance is a sign that something is wrong.

The Celtics are a team in a medium size market with very few cultural draws for most NBA players, in a league where contention increasingly means convincing star players to choose to team up in your city. 

To my mind the Celtics were in a pretty poor spot in 2013 with an aging roster and few future assets.  That the Celts were able to reload and create a team led by two young superstars in less than decade, while only missing the playoffs for a single season (!!!!) and enjoying several ECF runs in the meantime, is pretty impressive to me.

I deeply enjoyed the 2017 season with IT putting up 30 a game and the epic playoff win against the Wizards.  The 2018 underdog run with Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Smart, and Horford will always make me smile to remember it, even though I was heartbroken by the way it ended.  The 2020 run was a lot of fun, too, even when it was frustrating.  Beating the Raptors in 7, culminating in the Marcus Smart fast break block, was epic.  We're really lucky to have a player like Jayson Tatum as the centerpiece of the team, let alone having as talented a #2 as Jaylen Brown.  I try to appreciate them every game they play even though at times they, and the team, are really frustrating or disappointing.

Many franchises / fanbases would give anything to experience the kind of decade the Celtics experienced from 2011-2020, even though there were no Finals appearances or titles in that span.

[smicker16]

Have been a long-time lurker here, but definitely wanted to comment on this topic.  Thank you for the great and detailed post!  I am a Stevens fan and think he is one of the top 5-10 coaches in the game.  People want loud and emotional, but that is not really turning out great for a guy like Stan Van Gundy or even how is Nick Nurse doing now?  Seems like Siakam has tuned him out at this stage too and that team has tumbled without even losing any one major this past year whereas we lost Hayward (obviously Kawhi before, but just comparing last year to this year).  So I think that criticism is really a silly one, but I do think he has had a tougher time getting players into specific roles over the past few seasons than earlier.  If you look at how he got someone like Jerebko to succeed at his role whereas now it seems he has to do a lot of tinkering and that leads to these guys really not being in a rhythm as to if they will play or not.  I know this is mainly due to injuries, COVID and lack of talent, but this to me is my biggest issue with him and I think has led to some chemistry issues as someone like Langford starts and plays 30 minutes and then is a DNP the next night.  I still think that is moreso due to reasons out of his control, but I can understand that complaint with him entirely. 

With all of this being said, I do think if we do not see the team have a bounce back year next season that he will be very much on the hot seat.  I do not see a chance he gets fired after this season, but if we have similar results next season then I think it is very likely.  And honestly, it could just come down to him not being the right coach for these guys at this stage.  I still think he is a really great coach, but sometimes you do need a change of voice for the team and sometimes a new coach with a different energy pushes the players a bit more and it is possible the team needs that.  I just think it is tough to look at a guy like Thibs and say how great he is.  He is doing great this year, but four years ago we would have laughed at the thought of him coaching this team because I do think there is a time and a place where some coaches will succeed in one place, but not another.  There is no one that I feel strongly about replacing him at this stage and even someone like Thibs I would not be in favor of now, but if we have a similar season next season then I think it will be time to look elsewhere whether right or wrong.  That is just the way it goes, but I am hoping it does not come to that as I still have faith in him with this team.  Sorry for rambling on this post!

[Celtics4ever]

CBS is a good coach there is no denying it.  But guys have not listened or got motivated this year.   I do not if firing Brad would fix this, he has a crappy roster in some ways, covid and injuries to deal with this year.  Maybe guys got paid and don't feel they have to play hard?

I think Ainge is the bigger culprit for our troubles this year and a lot of problems stem from the inability of the 2019 draft to produce for whatever reason.   Ainge is still a great GM, everyone misses some picks and he has found good ones like Terry and Rob which were great value for where they were picked.  Ainge to his credit tried to make some moves to fix these issues.

We had two stars leave town as soon as they could.   I wonder what the reason is as that has hurt us a great deal.   Was it CBS?   Not liking sharing the limelight with Tatum and Brown?   Or is Kyrie and Gordon just head cases?   Thoughts?

The combination of hemorrhaging talent, the 2019 and becoming a lost home for NBA guys to give them a chance to break into the league has really hurt us.

I am not sure CBS has much to do with that.   Still some of his choices are mystifying this year, the rotations have been bad.   He has always had a problem with resting guys who were hot too long.   But he seems a bit off this year more than usual but who would not be off with this roster?  I think he deserves another year.

[Ogaju]

So it’s Ainge’s fault, right? Or are you cool with 10 years without a finals appearance or 12 years without a chip?

I do think that Ainge has earned some criticism and some scrutiny given the way he's managed the cap and how the team has seen a talent drain every season for a few years now.  A lot of it has been outside his control, I think, but he's made some mistakes and taken some risks that didn't pay off.  Right now I don't love the position that the Celts are in with regard to the cap and a limited set of options for improving the roster.  Very big shift from where they were 2-3 years ago.


As for the "are you cool without a finals appearance or a championship?" largely my answer is yes.  I don't think the Celtics are a marquee franchise in the eyes of most NBA fans nor particularly in the eyes of most NBA players.  It is only from the Bostonian / New England perspective that we see the Celtics as a franchise that should be dominating the league and that the absence of such dominance is a sign that something is wrong.

The Celtics are a team in a medium size market with very few cultural draws for most NBA players, in a league where contention increasingly means convincing star players to choose to team up in your city. 

To my mind the Celtics were in a pretty poor spot in 2013 with an aging roster and few future assets.  That the Celts were able to reload and create a team led by two young superstars in less than decade, while only missing the playoffs for a single season (!!!!) and enjoying several ECF runs in the meantime, is pretty impressive to me.

I deeply enjoyed the 2017 season with IT putting up 30 a game and the epic playoff win against the Wizards.  The 2018 underdog run with Tatum, Brown, Rozier, Smart, and Horford will always make me smile to remember it, even though I was heartbroken by the way it ended.  The 2020 run was a lot of fun, too, even when it was frustrating.  Beating the Raptors in 7, culminating in the Marcus Smart fast break block, was epic.  We're really lucky to have a player like Jayson Tatum as the centerpiece of the team, let alone having as talented a #2 as Jaylen Brown.  I try to appreciate them every game they play even though at times they, and the team, are really frustrating or disappointing.

Many franchises / fanbases would give anything to experience the kind of decade the Celtics experienced from 2011-2020, even though there were no Finals appearances or titles in that span.

So you think the Cs are like another also-ran team. I hope prospects do no read your post, and rather listen to the deep respect and honor the team gets on media and around the league. If your narrative prevails and the team is supposed to be satisfied with moral victories look for the Jays to get out of dodge as soon as they can.

[PhoSita]

So you think the Cs are like another also-ran team. I hope prospects do no read your post, and rather listen to the deep respect and honor the team gets on media and around the league. If your narrative prevails and the team is supposed to be satisfied with moral victories look for the Jays to get out of dodge as soon as they can.

I think the Celtics are, like the majority of teams in the league, at a disadvantage compared to the teams in glamor / destination markets i.e. Los Angeles, New York, Miami. 

The good news is that we have good ownership, competent management, a solid coach, and a moderately large market.  The Celts are certainly in a better position than teams like the Kings, Pacers, Thunder, Timberwolves, etc.


The NBA has not given any indication that it genuinely has a problem with a dynamic whereby the LA / NY teams have an advantage, or where star players choose their destination and team up at will.  So I don't really expect any major competitive balance changes to even the playing field.

The way I see it, the days when the Celts were competing with the Lakers for titles are simply put a different era.  Back then the Celtics were one of a few franchises in the whole league that had competent management and an expectation of winning.  The money involved in the league was a lot less back then, too.  If you look at the league over the last 30 years or so there's no reason to think of the Celtics as a "special" franchise.  They're above average.

[td450]

Stevens has been the coach for some time now and the team has had a more competitive character up until the Kyrie trade.

I hate to say this, but the team has the general demeanor and style of the player the team is built around, Jayson Tatum. The strengths it has are his strengths and the flaws it has are his flaws.

[Celtics4ever]

I hate to say this, but the team has the general demeanor and style of the player the team is built around, Jayson Tatum. The strengths it has are his strengths and the flaws it has are his flaws.

I think the same thing some times.  While he a great talent and with great skill he is not a leader of the sorts that puts a team on his back night in and night out.   Still he is still a young man and is learning and has room for growth in this area.

[gouki88]

There's a lot of merit to what has been said here. Brad is, generally speaking, a strong NBA coach. There's no denying that, his record of getting teams to the playoffs with gritty defences and balanced offences is testament to that very thing.

However, he has been at the helm a very long time now. He is currently 4th all time in games coached for the Celtics, and if he sees through his entire contract extension (through until 2025-26) he'll end up coaching between 900-1000 games total, second all-time for the Celtics. That's a long time to be at the helm in any organisation. I've always thought that when someone is in a coaching position for too long, particularly nowadays, there can be some sort of fatigue with listening to them. Especially if they're not raising championship banners. I know it shouldn't be the be-all end-all measure of success, but I would be shocked if Brad sees out that contract without winning any championships.

I'm willing to give him until the end of 2022-23 before fully diving into the 'Fire Brad' camp that some others are in, but I've certainly been closer over the last 8 months than ever before. I need to see what he does in the playoffs differently to last season and this season. I want to see what he does for our offence now that it's healthy - a team with Tatum, Brown, Kemba, Fournier, Smart and Parker on its roster should be a potent offence. I want to see our defensive intensity lift. I want to see some rotations that make sense!

Yet this season is very hard to pass judgement on. Ainge botched the roster management, there's no two ways about it. He's (in my opinion) offset that a little by adding Fournier and Parker for next to nothing, but even those additions have been disrupted by COVID. Players have played with sub-par effort on numerous occasions, etc. I feel like this season more than any other in NBA history is hard to really judge coaching.

Patience is probably the key to assessing all this. We've gotta see how it all goes in the playoffs and next season. If nothing changes, then the pitchforks will likely come out, but I'm not going to make the mistake of underestimating Brad Stevens or the Celtics

[hwangjini_1]

...

I've always thought that when someone is in a coaching position for too long, particularly nowadays, there can be some sort of fatigue with listening to them. Especially if they're not raising championship banners.
...

games coached for celtics:

Red Auerbach, 1192, #1
Brad Steven, 564, #4

yes. it was awful how the players tuned out Red and were fatigued listening to him. 

[gouki88]

...

I've always thought that when someone is in a coaching position for too long, particularly nowadays, there can be some sort of fatigue with listening to them. Especially if they're not raising championship banners.
...

games coached for celtics:

Red Auerbach, 1192, #1
Brad Steven, 564, #4

yes. it was awful how the players tuned out Red and were fatigued listening to him. 

I did follow it up by saying that this was mostly the case when championships weren't involved.

Red: 9 championships in 1340 games (1 chip every 150 games basically)
Stevens: 0 Finals appearances in 637 games

[hwangjini_1]

...

I've always thought that when someone is in a coaching position for too long, particularly nowadays, there can be some sort of fatigue with listening to them. Especially if they're not raising championship banners.
...

games coached for celtics:

Red Auerbach, 1192, #1
Brad Steven, 564, #4

yes. it was awful how the players tuned out Red and were fatigued listening to him. 

I did follow it up by saying that this was mostly the case when championships weren't involved.

Red: 9 championships in 1340 games (1 chip every 150 games basically)
Stevens: 0 Finals appearances in 637 games

yes, you did. but it was just too much fun for me to post those numbers. 

a tp to soothe the savage gouki.

[gouki88]

...

I've always thought that when someone is in a coaching position for too long, particularly nowadays, there can be some sort of fatigue with listening to them. Especially if they're not raising championship banners.
...

games coached for celtics:

Red Auerbach, 1192, #1
Brad Steven, 564, #4

yes. it was awful how the players tuned out Red and were fatigued listening to him. 

I did follow it up by saying that this was mostly the case when championships weren't involved.

Red: 9 championships in 1340 games (1 chip every 150 games basically)
Stevens: 0 Finals appearances in 637 games

yes, you did. but it was just too much fun for me to post those numbers. 

a tp to soothe the savage gouki.

Right back at ya. I just wanna win!!

[Ogaju]

So you think the Cs are like another also-ran team. I hope prospects do no read your post, and rather listen to the deep respect and honor the team gets on media and around the league. If your narrative prevails and the team is supposed to be satisfied with moral victories look for the Jays to get out of dodge as soon as they can.

I think the Celtics are, like the majority of teams in the league, at a disadvantage compared to the teams in glamor / destination markets i.e. Los Angeles, New York, Miami. 

The good news is that we have good ownership, competent management, a solid coach, and a moderately large market.  The Celts are certainly in a better position than teams like the Kings, Pacers, Thunder, Timberwolves, etc.


The NBA has not given any indication that it genuinely has a problem with a dynamic whereby the LA / NY teams have an advantage, or where star players choose their destination and team up at will.  So I don't really expect any major competitive balance changes to even the playing field.

The way I see it, the days when the Celts were competing with the Lakers for titles are simply put a different era.  Back then the Celtics were one of a few franchises in the whole league that had competent management and an expectation of winning.  The money involved in the league was a lot less back then, too.  If you look at the league over the last 30 years or so there's no reason to think of the Celtics as a "special" franchise.  They're above average.

So why would a superstar like Tatum stay?