Agree with Mike Gorman on Timelord and point guard?

[bricone29]

I agree but I don't agree when Mike Gorman thinks John Bagley is still playing for the Celtics though.

[Celtics4ever]

Still there is a problem of all these shooters stepping on each others toes.   I 've seen that been a problem from time to time and a bunch of shooters without a creator you often end up with the stand and watch nonsense which we've seen too much.

I don't agree with this. IMO the problem isn't that Kemba is a bad scorer all of the sudden (he is averaging ~18 PPG when he plays). The problem is the Celtics have no one that can consistently break down defenses, get into the paint, and then find our two superstars a handful of wide open looks per game. The guys who push the ball in transition and get into the paint on a regular basis are Tatum and Brown. We need those guys to be transition trailers half the time. Or to be able to stand around the perimeter or make back door cuts and get a few buckets each per game due to someone else's hard work.

Every possession this year is a struggle because we don't have a PG that can legit run an offense.

Kemba can score what every other game due to health reasons.

It's true the game and the PG position has changed.   We won in the  80s without a real PG after Tiny because of Larry's passing often.   DJ was not a typical PG nor was Danny.  But a guy that could make easy shots for the Jays would help us a lot and I think that is what Gorman was hinting at.   I think with Timelord as our C we should have a PG that pushes the pace.   JB can run and excels at that type of game.   Tatum, Smart and Kemba all get more than  4 APG.

[PhoSita]

I don't agree with this. IMO the problem isn't that Kemba is a bad scorer all of the sudden (he is averaging ~18 PPG when he plays). The problem is the Celtics have no one that can consistently break down defenses, get into the paint, and then find our two superstars a handful of wide open looks per game.

I mean it sorta seems like you said you don't agree with me then said that you agree with me.

You're right that Kemba isn't, like, suddenly broken down.  He can still score.


But he isn't the same guy anymore that teams have to fear pulling up from deep coming off a double screen, or getting inside for a layup off a pick and roll.  That means when he does have the ball he just inherently doesn't create as much space for his teammates.

[PhoSita]

Every possession this year is a struggle because we don't have a PG that can legit run an offense.

You say that "every possession is a struggle because we don't have a PG who can run an offense," but very few teams in the league anymore run systems with a single backcourt ballhandler "running" the offense. 

I mean, look at the top 5 offenses in the league.

Brooklyn
Clippers
Jazz
Denver
Milwaukee

Followed by:

Portland
Phoenix
New Orleans
Atlanta
Dallas


What's the common thread?  I'm not sure there is one, other than having a lot of different players who can create good shots and a lot of different players who can finish open looks inside or outside with good efficiency.

Yes, most of those teams have a lead ballhandler who is an elite scorer.  Some of them have more than one.  But they don't all run a system where a guard is holding onto the ball for long stretches, breaking down the defense, and finding guys open.  Phoenix plays that way because they have Chris Paul.  But it's a mixed bag otherwise.

You have teams like Atlanta and Phoenix who have high usage lead point guards, but I don't think you can really say that either Lillard or Trae looks to pass before looking to score.


The Celts have an issue because their top two scoring options are at best average at dribbling through defensive pressure and finding open teammates.  They're both more comfortable creating a shot for themselves than they are creating looks for others.  Neither learned the game as the lead playmaker for their team, and neither has the natural instincts of a passer. 

The other big issue, which is may be the biggest issue, is that the Celts lack guys who can play off the top two scoring options who are reliable at shooting and finishing.  Kemba and Smart have been up and down as shooters.  Rob Williams is a great finisher inside (and makes the offense way better when he's on the floor) but he is not a reliable shooter.  Fournier should help in this regard, but they could really use a few more shooters. 

[PAOBoston]

As per usual, Mike Gorman is wrong with his hot takes lol. Williams can’t play the 4 defensively. To further complicate things, Cs don’t have a that could help with spacing so it would clog up everything.

And Grant Can?  Why do you think he can't please elaborate.

Who’s going to play the 5? The just gonna clog the lane with two non shooters. And please don’t say Kornet is a viable option. He is literally the #15 guy on the roster. Personally, I don’t think he can stay with smaller quicker players on the perimeter. Personally, I don’t see the fascination with Williams. Think the Cs should sell high on him. Don’t trust him physically to stay healthy and don’t think he has has BBIQ.

For now, he’s the 5. Cs best lineup will be three wings and Kemba/Williams.

[PhoSita]

Personally, I don’t see the fascination with Williams. Think the Cs should sell high on him. Don’t trust him physically to stay healthy and don’t think he has has BBIQ.

For now, he’s the 5. Cs best lineup will be three wings and Kemba/Williams.

20 pts 8 ast 9 reb 2 blk 1 stl 9/9 shooting 26 min

17 pts 6 reb 4 ast 4 blk 1 stl 7/9 shooting 28 min

13 pts 14 reb 3 ast 4 blk 2 stl 6/7 shooting 26 min

16 pts 13 reb 3 blk 1 ast 1 stl 7/7 shooting 19 min

16 pts 8 reb 2 ast 2 stl 1 blk  7/9 shooting 25 min


Those are his 5 best performances this year by Game Score.  Overall 12 of his 44 games this year have a Game Score of 15 or better.  22 of his 44 games (i.e. exactly half) have been rated 10 or better.  For reference, 10 is considered an "average" performance.

He's only 23 years old and he's played less than 1500 total minutes at the NBA level in his career.  If the performances above are close to what a typical performance could be for Rob Williams, he'll be a star even if he only plays 25-28 minutes a night. 


Rob Williams is the best chance the Celts have of finding an above-average player for this roster without giving up other assets or dumping a ton of salary. 

[RJ87]

I think these sound like old man takes rooted in an understanding of the league that was most on-point about 20 years ago.

I say this with love.  Mike Gorman has watched and forgotten more basketball games than I'll ever watch.

Rob Williams is not a PF and the idea that point guards need to be about passing first and scoring second is outdated. 

You need your point guard to be able to score from all over; you just can't have a primary ballhandler who doesn't also create look for teammates.


The problem the Celts have is that their top point guard is no longer a deadly scorer due to his knee injury, which limits his ability to draw defenders and create open looks for others.  The second best ballhandling guard on the team, Smart, is not quick enough to regularly get by guys and draw help inside, nor is he a good enough pull up shooter to punish teams for giving him space.  He's just not a guy who can run your offense.  He is a decent secondary or tertiary ball-handler in a lineup with multiple elite scorers.

The bolded pretty much sums up my thoughts on Rob as a 4. The idea of a "power 4" is just an outdated concept.

[coco]

For me Timelords max ceiling is prime Tyson Chandler...so rim protecting, setting picks, finishing misses at the rim and simple offence hook shots in the paint.

Timelord has a lot more talent than Chandler ever had. I’m hoping he develops into a Marcus Camby type. Feel like the playing styles are similar.

I like the comparison.  The only thing is that “peak” Camby lasted a couple of seasons.  I hope “peak” TL would last a lot longer

[PAOBoston]

Personally, I don’t see the fascination with Williams. Think the Cs should sell high on him. Don’t trust him physically to stay healthy and don’t think he has has BBIQ.

For now, he’s the 5. Cs best lineup will be three wings and Kemba/Williams.

20 pts 8 ast 9 reb 2 blk 1 stl 9/9 shooting 26 min

17 pts 6 reb 4 ast 4 blk 1 stl 7/9 shooting 28 min

13 pts 14 reb 3 ast 4 blk 2 stl 6/7 shooting 26 min

16 pts 13 reb 3 blk 1 ast 1 stl 7/7 shooting 19 min

16 pts 8 reb 2 ast 2 stl 1 blk  7/9 shooting 25 min


Those are his 5 best performances this year by Game Score.  Overall 12 of his 44 games this year have a Game Score of 15 or better.  22 of his 44 games (i.e. exactly half) have been rated 10 or better.  For reference, 10 is considered an "average" performance.

He's only 23 years old and he's played less than 1500 total minutes at the NBA level in his career.  If the performances above are close to what a typical performance could be for Rob Williams, he'll be a star even if he only plays 25-28 minutes a night. 


Rob Williams is the best chance the Celts have of finding an above-average player for this roster without giving up other assets or dumping a ton of salary.

If the Cs are expecting Williams to become a star, this team is toast. I’d be happy if he’s a functional rotational center. He’ll never be star. Tonight, he couldn’t even stay on the floor/be effective enough to play the opposing teams best center. He’s also due to get paid soon and there will be some team willing to give him more than he’s worth.

[PhoSita]

If the Cs are expecting Williams to become a star, this team is toast. I’d be happy if he’s a functional rotational center. He’ll never be star. Tonight, he couldn’t even stay on the floor/be effective enough to play the opposing teams best center. He’s also due to get paid soon and there will be some team willing to give him more than he’s worth.

I think "expecting" would be too strong, but teams in the position that the Celts are in (against the cap, multiple stars in place but not good enough to be a contender) basically need to get lucky and have a guy like Rob --- raw, taken in the 15-30 range, lots of talent but has flaws or an unusual skillset -- turn into an above average starter.  That's the only way this team could realistically take a step up into a higher tier.

[footey]

Steve Bulpett (who I respect more than any other Boston basketball journalist) has repeatedly asked the question:  Why can't Rob be like Bam? He asks it rhetorically, as he certainly believes (as do I) that Rob has the potential to be for us what Bam is for the Heat. 

Rob should study tape of Bam Adebayo all off season.  They are very similar in terms of height (Bam only 3/4" taller).  Rob has 2-3" advantage in wingspan and standing reach.  They both weighed about 240 lbs entering the NBA, although Bam seems to have added more muscle than Rob since.  Rob is more athletic than Bam in terms of jumping ability and fast twitch quickness.

Both have demonstrated superior passing skills.

Where Bam has separated himself from Rob (and most every other NBA center) is his ball handling.  He can take it up the court, and often does, to set up a play.  He can make a move, like a power forward, off the dribble.  Rob is just starting to show an ability to do this.  I hope the Celtics spend the off season having Rob work more on his play making off the dribble.  It is a skill that can be taught with practice.  Jaylen Brown is Exhibit A. He was a horrible dribble penetrator his first 2-3 seasons. He has developed to become a quite decent one, subject to the occasional meltdown when he tries to do too much in traffic (usually on fast breaks, is my observation).

Rob can also hit the weight room to add strength and muscle.  Bam is able to hold his ground better against bigger guys, although he too like everyone will struggle against the Embiids of this world.

Neither of them are 3 point shooters. And I hope the Celtics don't try to spend a lot of time developing Rob's 3 point shot.

Far more time should be spent on building strength and ball handling.  I  would love to see our team build around Rob as the center of the offense.  He is such a skilled and willing passer. He really makes the ball move. He is the guy best suited to implement Brad's offensive schemes, similar to Al Horford when he was a Celtic.

Rob will always struggle against guys like Embiid, defensively, and that's okay.  Bill Russell struggled mightily against Wilt Chamberlain. Yet the Russell's Celtics usually beat Wilt's Warriors/Sixers/Lakers.   There are ways to deal with Embiid scheme-wise. I have been advocating putting a Smart and/or Grant Williams and/or Semi on him, taking charges, causing double teams, creating havoc.  Play Rob off of him, put him on Simmons.

[gouki88]

Personally, I don’t see the fascination with Williams. Think the Cs should sell high on him. Don’t trust him physically to stay healthy and don’t think he has has BBIQ.

For now, he’s the 5. Cs best lineup will be three wings and Kemba/Williams.

20 pts 8 ast 9 reb 2 blk 1 stl 9/9 shooting 26 min

17 pts 6 reb 4 ast 4 blk 1 stl 7/9 shooting 28 min

13 pts 14 reb 3 ast 4 blk 2 stl 6/7 shooting 26 min

16 pts 13 reb 3 blk 1 ast 1 stl 7/7 shooting 19 min

16 pts 8 reb 2 ast 2 stl 1 blk  7/9 shooting 25 min


Those are his 5 best performances this year by Game Score.  Overall 12 of his 44 games this year have a Game Score of 15 or better.  22 of his 44 games (i.e. exactly half) have been rated 10 or better.  For reference, 10 is considered an "average" performance.

He's only 23 years old and he's played less than 1500 total minutes at the NBA level in his career.  If the performances above are close to what a typical performance could be for Rob Williams, he'll be a star even if he only plays 25-28 minutes a night. 


Rob Williams is the best chance the Celts have of finding an above-average player for this roster without giving up other assets or dumping a ton of salary.

If the Cs are expecting Williams to become a star, this team is toast. I’d be happy if he’s a functional rotational center. He’ll never be star. Tonight, he couldn’t even stay on the floor/be effective enough to play the opposing teams best center. He’s also due to get paid soon and there will be some team willing to give him more than he’s worth.

He’s already well past “functional rotational centre”. I get pumping the brakes, but this is just ridiculously pessimistic

[Moranis]

Personally, I don’t see the fascination with Williams. Think the Cs should sell high on him. Don’t trust him physically to stay healthy and don’t think he has has BBIQ.

For now, he’s the 5. Cs best lineup will be three wings and Kemba/Williams.

20 pts 8 ast 9 reb 2 blk 1 stl 9/9 shooting 26 min

17 pts 6 reb 4 ast 4 blk 1 stl 7/9 shooting 28 min

13 pts 14 reb 3 ast 4 blk 2 stl 6/7 shooting 26 min

16 pts 13 reb 3 blk 1 ast 1 stl 7/7 shooting 19 min

16 pts 8 reb 2 ast 2 stl 1 blk  7/9 shooting 25 min


Those are his 5 best performances this year by Game Score.  Overall 12 of his 44 games this year have a Game Score of 15 or better.  22 of his 44 games (i.e. exactly half) have been rated 10 or better.  For reference, 10 is considered an "average" performance.

He's only 23 years old and he's played less than 1500 total minutes at the NBA level in his career.  If the performances above are close to what a typical performance could be for Rob Williams, he'll be a star even if he only plays 25-28 minutes a night. 


Rob Williams is the best chance the Celts have of finding an above-average player for this roster without giving up other assets or dumping a ton of salary.

except those aren't his last 5 games and his last 3 games have been pretty bad overall.  That is the problem with Williams.  He certainly shows flashes every once in awhile, but most of the time he just isn't very good and he isn't really slowing raising the bottom run either.  I know Embiid is a monster, but Williams fouled out in less than 14 mpg playing against him, 3 games ago.  One of his worst games of the year and the last two haven't been a ton better other than not fouling out.  The team as a whole has been outscored with him on the floor and has been significantly better when he is on the bench.  So while there are signs of potential, there are also signs he isn't going to be much more than what should be a back-up that can be a spot-starter in a pinch and that is if he can stay healthy.  He is still relatively young, so he can certainly grow into a legit starter, but I'm quite surprised how many people on this board basically have him as untouchable in trades.

[tenn_smoothie]

I have been calling for a playmaking point guard and an upgrade at center for 3 years now.

Sounds as if Rob Williams may be better off staying at center, but we need another center in addition to RobW with more pure talent and a guy that has some size to stand up to Embiid, Davis, Bam. Our lack of a big, strong center has been a problem since we let Baynes go. We are plain weak inside.

Danny just keeps acquiring scoring point guards rather than playmakers. That is not a good fit for this team. Frustrating to watch Danny keep banging his head against the wall trying to fit square pegs into a round hole. It's as if he has to prove himself right no matter what.

[Celtics2021]

I have been calling for a playmaking point guard and an upgrade at center for 3 years now.

Sounds as if Rob Williams may be better off staying at center, but we need another center in addition to RobW with more pure talent and a guy that has some size to stand up to Embiid, Davis, Bam. Our lack of a big, strong center has been a problem since we let Baynes go. We are plain weak inside.

Danny just keeps acquiring scoring point guards rather than playmakers. That is not a good fit for this team. Frustrating to watch Danny keep banging his head against the wall trying to fit square pegs into a round hole. It's as if he has to prove himself right no matter what.

So since we had Kyrie at PG and Horford was an All-Star.  Feels like you’re difficult to please.