Could Langford be a player?

[hwangjini_1]

....

You're right that it can be problematic to pass judgment on a player too soon.  However, Nesmith is still in his rookie season, and even before his more productive outings recently, he at least made sure you noticed him out there with his hustle and energy.  Nesmith is also a guy who has really good shot mechanics, which offered reason to trust that his jumpshot would come along even when he has struggled at times.  That logic doesn't always work out (see Ben McLemore), but it's different from a guy like Langford who fell in the draft in part because of questions about the basic mechanics of his jumpshot.

So far Langford is more comparable to someone like James Young, who came in young and raw and struggled to stay on the floor or produce from day one.  Now, I think the reasons for that are different in those cases. But in terms of on the court impact, they're not far apart.  Langford at least has shown flashes of on-ball defensive ability, but it's hard to roster a guy based solely on his potential as a wing defender.  There are undrafted players available every year who can offer that package.  Javonte Green is an example.  Javonte is a much more polished offensive player than Romeo at this point, honestly.

Javonte green? you mean the javonte green who is 27 years old, compared to romeo who is 21 years old?

I understand your point, but this particular example is really weak sauce.

plus, CBS has stated that langford has the potential to be a ball handling swing, which would be very valuable to the team.

and mr. james young as a meaningful comparison that will shed light on the future of mr. romeo langford? i dont think you are serious on this point. young's number one skill was to be shooter. he failed. langford's appeal is based less upon shooting and more on other skills.

i would be happy to wager tps (were that evil practice to be legal) on langford's years 3 & 4 outstripping  young's 3 & 4 years.

and once again, why the urge, compulsion, desire, need to pass judgement so early?

[KG Living Legend]

 Romeo is trash.  He should have traded up and hot Hero. Grant Williams,  Romeo, Catsen Edward's  are all trash.

 Get one good player instead of 3 garbage players Danny.

[gouki88]

 Romeo is trash.  He should have traded up and hot Hero. Grant Williams,  Romeo, Catsen Edward's  are all trash.

 Get one good player instead of 3 garbage players Danny.

This is a ridiculous post. More nonsensical trash than any of Danny's picks

[PhoSita]

Javonte green? you mean the javonte green who is 27 years old, compared to romeo who is 21 years old?

I understand your point, but this particular example is really weak sauce.

The point is that all that Romeo has really flashed so far is the potential be an athletic perimeter defender, and guys who only really stand out for their ability to stay with their man on the perimeter are really easy to find, i.e. Javonte Green type players. 

Yes, Romeo has the "potential" to be much more than that, but he hasn't really actually done it much at all, even in bursts, at the NBA level yet.

plus, CBS has stated that langford has the potential to be a ball handling swing, which would be very valuable to the team.

and mr. james young as a meaningful comparison that will shed light on the future of mr. romeo langford? i dont think you are serious on this point. young's number one skill was to be shooter. he failed. langford's appeal is based less upon shooting and more on other skills.

i would be happy to wager tps (were that evil practice to be legal) on langford's years 3 & 4 outstripping  young's 3 & 4 years.

and once again, why the urge, compulsion, desire, need to pass judgement so early?

The projections of what Romeo could be are different than what we expected from James Young.  They're not the same kind of player.  They are very similar in that through their first couple of seasons they failed to actually do much on an NBA court even in the limited minutes they got.

The assumptions of what Romeo can be are based on what he did in college or high school.  They're projections.  They aren't based on anything he's been able to do in the NBA yet.


Why the rush to pass judgment so soon?

Well, it's been almost a full two seasons so far.  Romeo was drafted at the back end of the lottery.  Typically you expect lottery picks to have the talent to actually show something in their first couple of seasons. 

More than that, it's the fact that the Celtics really need guys who can play.  Nesmith showing up and giving the team something in the last couple of weeks has been so huge because the team desperately needs players.  Romeo makes a non-trivial amount of money even though he's on a rookie salary.  He's got two years left.  This team is packed to the gills salary wise and as I already said, but it bears repeating, they really need guys who can play and who can stay on the floor.  The fact that Romeo has been a zero his first two seasons, and hasn't shown much to make me think he's going to be useful anytime soon, is a drag. 


Romeo might be useful someday, but I think the team ought to trade him for any value, if he has any value, and replace him with somebody who can help the team now.  They're gonna have to do that with a lot of roster spots this summer.

[Muzzy66]

I sincerely cannot understand why anybody here has any excitement towards Langford.

He has been bad.  Really bad. 

Lets compare Langfords total career stats so far (over two seasons) to rookie stats of some other recent Celtics prospects.

Langford (46 games):
Per 36 Stats: 6.9 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 0.7 steals, 0.7 blk (Per 36)
Percentages: 34% FG, 21% 3PT, 76% FT
Net Rtg: -20
BPM: -5.2
WS/48: .012

Nesmith (39 Games):
Per 36 Stats: 11.3 points, 6.5 reb, 0.9 ast, 0.9 stl, 0.6 blk
Percentages: 44% FG, 38% 3PT, 70% FT
Net Rtg: -3
BPM: -3.2
WS/48: .067

Grant Williams (69 games):
Per 36 Stats: 8.2 pts, 6.1 reb, 2.3 ast, 1.0 stl, 1.2 blk
Percentages: 41% FG, 25% 3PT, 72% FT
Net Rtg: -4
BPM: -2.7
WS/48: .071

Pritchard (59 games):
Per 36 Stats: 14.3 points, 4.4 reb, 3.4 ast, 1.0 stl, 0.3 blk
 Percentages: 45% FG, 42% 3PT, 91% FT
Net Rtg: +3
BPM: -1.2
WS/48: .099

Rob Willliams (32 games):
Per 36 Stats: 10.3 pts, 10.3 reb, 0.9 ast, 1.1 stl, 5.1 blk
Percentages: 71% FG, 0% 3PT, 60% FT
Net Rtg: +32
BPM: +1.8
WS/48: .201

Teco: (24 games):
Per 36 Stats: 25.1 pts, 16.4 reb, 1.1 ast, 1.1 stl, 4.4 blk
Percentages: 79% FG, 0% 3PT, 33% FT
Net Rtg: +22
BPM: +6.5
WS/48: .223

If that (the fact that he - after 2 seasons - is clearly the least productive of all those guys in their rookie years) doesn't demonstrate how bad Langford has been, I don't know what could.

Even in the G-League (where even garbage players like James Young and Jordan Mickey have looked like stars) Langford has looked thoroughly mediocre - only averaging 10.6 points, 2.7 reb and 1.3 ast on 43% / 22% / 80% shooting over 7 G-League games.  James Young averaged 21.5 PPG as a rookie in the G-League, so a least fanboys could use that as an argument for him.   

Somebody here asked why anyone would compare him to James Young.  The answer for me is simple...watching him on the court reminds me of how it felt watching James Young.  He looks every bit as awkward, sloppy and and feels like just as much a liability every time he's on the court. 

Also when I watch him play I'm constantly watching him looking for ANYTHING promising from him to give him even the slightest hint of potential - and much like was the case with James Young, I constantly draw blanks.  I haven't seen him do a single thing at even an average level.  Not one thing.  His defence is by far his most promising talent and even that has looked slightly below average at best.  Much like James Young - who's most promising talent was by far shooting, which was below average at best.  It feels like you could throw ANY wing in the NBA (and many in the G-League probably) on the court in his place and you wouldn't do any worse. 

People keep making excuses for him - that he's been injured, that hes only young, etc.  People made those EXACT same excuses every single year for James Young.  Yet every single year he continued to look like complete rubbish...just like Langford does. 

I find it hard to very hard to envision him ever becoming a starting calibre PG.  Maybe one day if you're lucky he could become a good backup wing.
 I think that is his ceiling, and based on what I've seen so far I think that's actually being a little generous.  I would love nothing more then to see him traded away for anything.  I'd happily take a top 55 protected 2nd round pick if somebody is willing to offer it just to clear his salary and the roster spot.

[jambr380]

This thread sure has taken a different tone from just a couple of weeks ago. I realize that is when Nesmith has made his 'jump', but Romeo was consistently trusted by Brad over Nesmith up until just recently.

The kid possesses at least one valuable NBA skill (defense) and seems quite versatile in that role. Many guys make a career out of playing great defense. Even a guy in Romeo's draft class (Thybulle) - who has way more on-court time - seems to be lauded for this part of his game.

That said, I find it difficult to believe that Romeo will fail to develop any offensive skills. And you all will probably look silly demanding that we dump him immediately, just as you did with Nesmith earlier in the season. Why don't we give him some time and see if he can get better through a full offseason training regimen? Until then, I will continue to very much enjoy watching him play D.

[td450]

For the past few years, there has been only one way to establish yourself as an offensive player in the Celtics scheme and that is to be able to produce within the narrow constraints of being an edge contributor. Most role level players in the NBA struggle with that. You get 15 minutes, and 4 shots.

The edge players getting the most minutes, Grant Williams and Semi Ojeleye, have failed to break through. Fortunately, Payton Pritchard was able to do it. As Mike Gorman always mentions, Pritchard always seems able to make his first shot. I'm hopeful Nesmith can keep it going.

Slasher type players need reps. We aren't going to have any idea what Langford is until next year, when he hopefully stays healthy for a year and can get comfortable, but if the team makes you win a spot by doing well with less than 5 shots a game, some guys with real talent won't break through.

[Sophomore]

I sincerely cannot understand why anybody here has any excitement towards Langford.

He has been bad.  Really bad. 

Lets compare Langfords total career stats so far (over two seasons) to rookie stats of some other recent Celtics prospects.

Langford (46 games):
Per 36 Stats: 6.9 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 0.7 steals, 0.7 blk (Per 36)
Percentages: 34% FG, 21% 3PT, 76% FT
Net Rtg: -20
BPM: -5.2
WS/48: .012

Nesmith (39 Games):
Per 36 Stats: 11.3 points, 6.5 reb, 0.9 ast, 0.9 stl, 0.6 blk
Percentages: 44% FG, 38% 3PT, 70% FT
Net Rtg: -3
BPM: -3.2
WS/48: .067

Grant Williams (69 games):
Per 36 Stats: 8.2 pts, 6.1 reb, 2.3 ast, 1.0 stl, 1.2 blk
Percentages: 41% FG, 25% 3PT, 72% FT
Net Rtg: -4
BPM: -2.7
WS/48: .071

Pritchard (59 games):
Per 36 Stats: 14.3 points, 4.4 reb, 3.4 ast, 1.0 stl, 0.3 blk
 Percentages: 45% FG, 42% 3PT, 91% FT
Net Rtg: +3
BPM: -1.2
WS/48: .099

Rob Willliams (32 games):
Per 36 Stats: 10.3 pts, 10.3 reb, 0.9 ast, 1.1 stl, 5.1 blk
Percentages: 71% FG, 0% 3PT, 60% FT
Net Rtg: +32
BPM: +1.8
WS/48: .201

Teco: (24 games):
Per 36 Stats: 25.1 pts, 16.4 reb, 1.1 ast, 1.1 stl, 4.4 blk
Percentages: 79% FG, 0% 3PT, 33% FT
Net Rtg: +22
BPM: +6.5
WS/48: .223

If that (the fact that he - after 2 seasons - is clearly the least productive of all those guys in their rookie years) doesn't demonstrate how bad Langford has been, I don't know what could.

Even in the G-League (where even garbage players like James Young and Jordan Mickey have looked like stars) Langford has looked thoroughly mediocre - only averaging 10.6 points, 2.7 reb and 1.3 ast on 43% / 22% / 80% shooting over 7 G-League games.  James Young averaged 21.5 PPG as a rookie in the G-League, so a least fanboys could use that as an argument for him.   

Somebody here asked why anyone would compare him to James Young.  The answer for me is simple...watching him on the court reminds me of how it felt watching James Young.  He looks every bit as awkward, sloppy and and feels like just as much a liability every time he's on the court. 

Also when I watch him play I'm constantly watching him looking for ANYTHING promising from him to give him even the slightest hint of potential - and much like was the case with James Young, I constantly draw blanks.  I haven't seen him do a single thing at even an average level.  Not one thing.  His defence is by far his most promising talent and even that has looked slightly below average at best.  Much like James Young - who's most promising talent was by far shooting, which was below average at best.  It feels like you could throw ANY wing in the NBA (and many in the G-League probably) on the court in his place and you wouldn't do any worse. 

People keep making excuses for him - that he's been injured, that hes only young, etc.  People made those EXACT same excuses every single year for James Young.  Yet every single year he continued to look like complete rubbish...just like Langford does. 

I find it hard to very hard to envision him ever becoming a starting calibre PG.  Maybe one day if you're lucky he could become a good backup wing.
 I think that is his ceiling, and based on what I've seen so far I think that's actually being a little generous.  I would love nothing more then to see him traded away for anything.  I'd happily take a top 55 protected 2nd round pick if somebody is willing to offer it just to clear his salary and the roster spot.

Bookmark this tweet. Let’s see how it ages over the next couple years. I believe, based on the kid’s competitiveness, understanding of angles, and obvious physical talent, that he’s an NBA player. How good he’ll become I can’t say, but he’s not “trash” or “garbage” and my guess is he becomes a rotation player at least on a playoff team.

Nesmith was absolutely lost on defense the first half of this year. Had no idea where to be, at all, and gave up bucket after bucket. Then a light went on. That’s the way it is with some players.

[footey]

ESPN Analysis in 2018

ESPN Analyst
Updated 06/14/2018

Strengths:
Langford is a scoring wing who is a threat at all three levels. He has good positional size, long arms (6-foot-10 wingspan), and a strong build that should blossom in a college weight room. He has an advanced scoring package for his age and understanding of how to create his own shot as he moves without the ball, has good use of both hands, and good footwork. He's an especially efficient scorer around the lane as he has a full assortment of pivots and spins at his disposal, shoots at very high percentage on two-point field goals, and goes right into contact to get himself to the free-throw line in high volume. Langford is a solid vertical athlete and good rebounding wing, particularly on the offensive end, where he'll fly at the glass from the perimeter. He moves well enough laterally to be a solid defender and may even have some potential versatility to guard bigger guys as he builds up his body.

Weaknesses:
While he has naturally soft shooting touch, he's not yet a consistent three-point shooter as he converted only 24% of his attempts from behind the arc during two seasons in the Adidas Gauntlet and has a release that comes out almost to the left side of his head at times. Becoming a more consistent shooter is critical long-term because Langford doesn't possess the elite quickness to blow right by a set defender. Overall, he has a tendency to be very streaky offensively as he'll have bursts where he scores in bunches, only to disappear for stretches at other times. Defensively, he'll show flashes of utilizing his length and moving pretty well laterally but he has to commit to that on a full time basis.

Bottom Line:
Langford is well-built scoring wing that is a tough match-up because of his size, length, and advanced understanding of how to create his own shot in various ranges.

[PhoSita]

This thread sure has taken a different tone from just a couple of weeks ago. I realize that is when Nesmith has made his 'jump', but Romeo was consistently trusted by Brad over Nesmith up until just recently.

The kid possesses at least one valuable NBA skill (defense) and seems quite versatile in that role. Many guys make a career out of playing great defense. Even a guy in Romeo's draft class (Thybulle) - who has way more on-court time - seems to be lauded for this part of his game.

That said, I find it difficult to believe that Romeo will fail to develop any offensive skills. And you all will probably look silly demanding that we dump him immediately, just as you did with Nesmith earlier in the season. Why don't we give him some time and see if he can get better through a full offseason training regimen? Until then, I will continue to very much enjoy watching him play D.

The question for me isnt' so much whether Romeo will eventually be a productive player.  It's -- when?

The Celtics need useful players now.  If they're going to have young guys on the roster, they need more like Pritchard and fewer like Romeo.   Carrying raw development projects is a good value plan for bolstering your talent pipeline, but only if you already have a solid rotation of 8-9 players you can rely on every night.  That's not where the Celts are at.

I think there's a chance that Romeo is going to figure it out, eventually, but probably on another team when he's beyond his rookie deal. 

[RockinRyA]

people are totally underestimating the effect of injuries and esp covid with guys like Langford.

[slamtheking]

This thread sure has taken a different tone from just a couple of weeks ago. I realize that is when Nesmith has made his 'jump', but Romeo was consistently trusted by Brad over Nesmith up until just recently.

The kid possesses at least one valuable NBA skill (defense) and seems quite versatile in that role. Many guys make a career out of playing great defense. Even a guy in Romeo's draft class (Thybulle) - who has way more on-court time - seems to be lauded for this part of his game.

That said, I find it difficult to believe that Romeo will fail to develop any offensive skills. And you all will probably look silly demanding that we dump him immediately, just as you did with Nesmith earlier in the season. Why don't we give him some time and see if he can get better through a full offseason training regimen? Until then, I will continue to very much enjoy watching him play D.

The question for me isnt' so much whether Romeo will eventually be a productive player.  It's -- when?

The Celtics need useful players now.  If they're going to have young guys on the roster, they need more like Pritchard and fewer like Romeo.   Carrying raw development projects is a good value plan for bolstering your talent pipeline, but only if you already have a solid rotation of 8-9 players you can rely on every night.  That's not where the Celts are at.

I think there's a chance that Romeo is going to figure it out, eventually, but probably on another team when he's beyond his rookie deal.

As much as I'd like to see Romeo putting it together offensively like Nesmith seems to have done, I think he's looking pretty competent on D where he doesn't need to run around like Nesmith to get back into position.  If (big IF here) he's healthy for the rest of the postseason, offseason, training camp and next season, I think whatever he produces during next season would be a fair evaluation.  I think he puts it together with consistent good health and a training camp in season 3 much like Timelord did. 

Ultimately, I'd love to see him develop enough where he takes Smart's place to free him up for a deal to help fill the front court with a better PF option than Semi, GWill and Parker.

[footey]

This thread sure has taken a different tone from just a couple of weeks ago. I realize that is when Nesmith has made his 'jump', but Romeo was consistently trusted by Brad over Nesmith up until just recently.

The kid possesses at least one valuable NBA skill (defense) and seems quite versatile in that role. Many guys make a career out of playing great defense. Even a guy in Romeo's draft class (Thybulle) - who has way more on-court time - seems to be lauded for this part of his game.

That said, I find it difficult to believe that Romeo will fail to develop any offensive skills. And you all will probably look silly demanding that we dump him immediately, just as you did with Nesmith earlier in the season. Why don't we give him some time and see if he can get better through a full offseason training regimen? Until then, I will continue to very much enjoy watching him play D.

The question for me isnt' so much whether Romeo will eventually be a productive player.  It's -- when?

The Celtics need useful players now.  If they're going to have young guys on the roster, they need more like Pritchard and fewer like Romeo.   Carrying raw development projects is a good value plan for bolstering your talent pipeline, but only if you already have a solid rotation of 8-9 players you can rely on every night.  That's not where the Celts are at.

I think there's a chance that Romeo is going to figure it out, eventually, but probably on another team when he's beyond his rookie deal.

Nice pivot. 

Still a travel. 

[spikelovetheCelts]

If you watch him shoot now as compared to last year he has changed his shot for the better. He can defend for sure. When he on the floor and open he has not been passed the ball like they do for Nesmith.
I saw hope on last few drive he reminded me of Jaylen a little lost when he got to the rim. I am hopeful with a healthy off season he will do a Robert Williams and things will click.

[tonydelk]

If you watch him shoot now as compared to last year he has changed his shot for the better. He can defend for sure. When he on the floor and open he has not been passed the ball like they do for Nesmith.
I saw hope on last few drive he reminded me of Jaylen a little lost when he got to the rim. I am hopeful with a healthy off season he will do a Robert Williams and things will click.

His shot looks better the JB's did at this same juncture in his career.  Remember JB looked like he was going to shoot like Smart.  If Romeo has the same work ethic as JB he will be an adequate shooter.  I love Romeo and if he can get a full off season healthy he will look like a different player next year.  I know some are down on him because stats matter to them but if you watch the kid you can absolutely see he belongs on a NBA floor.  People keep bringing up James Young.  When James played you knew he didn't belong.  He was a step slow in everything he did.  Very slow recognition and processing of plays.  You don't see this with Romeo.  I am a believer of Romeo.  I think he can have the same type of career as Avery Bradly but bigger.  I've seen good cuts to the hoop.  He attacks the rim, really good defensive positioning and can switch 1-3.  Decent shooting form.  Much better then even his rookie season.  Right now he needs playing time and conditioning.  He won't get that until this offseason if he can stay healthy.  I'll take that all day.