Could Langford be a player?

[tstorey_97]

I wanted to make the Bradley comparison, but they aren't similar beyond it being their "first" NBA season.

Romeo has 43 appearances in his two seasons.

Go look at his videos from Indiana, he was a very good college player taking and making big shots and making big plays. He hit a three at the buzzer to beat MSU in one of his big games.

In 177 minutes this season he has attempted 33 field goals and made 9.

He is 3 from 11 from three, he's got 25 rebounds and 8 assists

A) He doesn't ever touch the ball which is confirmed by the stats.
B)When he does get the ball, he defers.

Romeo isn't the only bench player who chooses to pass the ball back to an "all star scorer". I can't blame him.

Pritchard is a different player playing a different position coming from 4 years of college. Pritchard has played in something like 28 HS and college "playoff games". Romeo hasn't had that advantage and needs it. Pritchard has the experience and confidence to take shots. Langford had 32 college games with injury affecting some of them.

He just needs reps and Stevens is trying to give them to him. Playing 20 full games in Maine would have been useful if Maine had played.

He needs to rise above the hand he has been dealt and he has the talents to do so.

[Tr1boy]

Not sure if Langford is still rusty or sophomore  jinx

He has bad on the offensive end. Looks like wants no part of the ball

Hope he will snap out of it soon

[SHAQATTACK]

Not sure if Langford is still rusty or sophomore  jinx

He has bad on the offensive end. Looks like wants no part of the ball

Hope he will snap out of it soon

With PP and Nesmith doing so well ,  I’m sure the personal pressure to perform is immense. He just hasn’t got the court time in , he s been too hurt to develop,  he is behind in his player growth .  He desperately needs G league time to hone his shots and rebuild his confidence.

[Moranis]

Not sure if Langford is still rusty or sophomore  jinx

He has bad on the offensive end. Looks like wants no part of the ball

Hope he will snap out of it soon

What makes you think this isn't normal.  He isn't much worse than he was last year either. Heck he wasn't exactly an efficient shooter at Indiana either. There is basically no evidence this isn't who he is. 

[Vermont Green]

I feel that Langford has plenty of ability to be a solid NBA player at worst.  He just needs to play out the season without getting another injury.  He is good enough already to stick around the league if he can stay on the court and he will get better.

This is essentially the continuation of his redshirt season from last.  But it is a redshirt season where he is getting to play some real minutes (as he did last season).  I have not given up on him and view him as a nice young piece for our depth going forward.

[Tr1boy]

Not sure if Langford is still rusty or sophomore  jinx

He has bad on the offensive end. Looks like wants no part of the ball

Hope he will snap out of it soon

What makes you think this isn't normal.  He isn't much worse than he was last year either. Heck he wasn't exactly an efficient shooter at Indiana either. There is basically no evidence this isn't who he is.

this is what I'm afraid of

Overall looks like 2019 was one of those weak drafts like 2013

[Jiri Welsch]

Not sure if Langford is still rusty or sophomore  jinx

He has bad on the offensive end. Looks like wants no part of the ball

Hope he will snap out of it soon

What makes you think this isn't normal.  He isn't much worse than he was last year either. Heck he wasn't exactly an efficient shooter at Indiana either. There is basically no evidence this isn't who he is.

this is what I'm afraid of

Overall looks like 2019 was one of those weak drafts like 2013

IMO Langford appears to be a guy who needs to find his offensive niche. For example, Marcus Morris had his above-the-break 3 pointer. Brandon Bass had his mid-range jumper.

Langford needs to find a spot on the floor where he's confident, make that the focal point of his offensive role, and then build on it. He's definitely limited offensively, but I think over the years he can build and develop a few moves.

[PhoSita]

I'm not optimistic.  He's been available so little his first couple of seasons and when he has been available, though he has shown some things on defense, he's been pretty unproductive.  He simply hasn't demonstrated that he has much in the way of NBA level skills.  That's really concerning for a guy who is going to be on the third season of his rookie deal and was drafted as a lottery pick. 

[footey]

I'm not optimistic.  He's been available so little his first couple of seasons and when he has been available, though he has shown some things on defense, he's been pretty unproductive.  He simply hasn't demonstrated that he has much in the way of NBA level skills.  That's really concerning for a guy who is going to be on the third season of his rookie deal and was drafted as a lottery pick.

Not saying you said this about Rob, but a fair number of folk here had the same criticism of Rob Williams, who like Langford played very little his first two seasons due to injury.  I would not judge him until he gets a full season in.  He clearly can play defense quite well. It's just a question of what type of player he can be on the offensive end.

[PhoSita]

I'm not optimistic.  He's been available so little his first couple of seasons and when he has been available, though he has shown some things on defense, he's been pretty unproductive.  He simply hasn't demonstrated that he has much in the way of NBA level skills.  That's really concerning for a guy who is going to be on the third season of his rookie deal and was drafted as a lottery pick.

Not saying you said this about Rob, but a fair number of folk here had the same criticism of Rob Williams, who like Langford played very little his first two seasons due to injury.  I would not judge him until he gets a full season in.  He clearly can play defense quite well. It's just a question of what type of player he can be on the offensive end.

The thing is Rob was super productive even in his rookie season in very limited minutes.  He completed 70% of his attempts (i.e. dunks and layups), blocked 5 shots per 36 minutes, and grabbed 1 steal per 36 minutes.  He averaged .206 WS/48 in his rookie season.

It was easy to see that was a small sample size thing, but also that was an indication that he might still be very productive once he was able to earn more minutes. 


In 586 career minutes Langford has averaged less than 7 points, 5 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1 steal, 1 block per 36 minutes, and he has a TS% around 42%.

He's been bad, basically.  Really bad, and not in a "young guy doing a lot of stuff and making things worse on net" kind of bad.  Just a "not really impacting the game when he's out there" kind of bad. 


Yes there are plenty of caveats.  He's been hurt. He's only 21 years old.  He didn't get much seasoning in college.

But eventually those caveats go from being reasons to hold out hope to reasons to think that a guy has simply missed his window to help out the team that drafted him.  I suspect that if Romeo is going to make it, it's going to be on another team.  Unfortunately I don't think he's a guy who's likely to have the option of going overseas, because foreign teams tend to expect guys to have some well defined skills.

[hwangjini_1]

I'm not optimistic.  He's been available so little his first couple of seasons and when he has been available, though he has shown some things on defense, he's been pretty unproductive.  He simply hasn't demonstrated that he has much in the way of NBA level skills.  That's really concerning for a guy who is going to be on the third season of his rookie deal and was drafted as a lottery pick.

Not saying you said this about Rob, but a fair number of folk here had the same criticism of Rob Williams, who like Langford played very little his first two seasons due to injury.  I would not judge him until he gets a full season in.  He clearly can play defense quite well. It's just a question of what type of player he can be on the offensive end.

The thing is Rob was super productive even in his rookie season in very limited minutes.  He completed 70% of his attempts (i.e. dunks and layups), blocked 5 shots per 36 minutes, and grabbed 1 steal per 36 minutes.  He averaged .206 WS/48 in his rookie season.

It was easy to see that was a small sample size thing, but also that was an indication that he might still be very productive once he was able to earn more minutes. 


In 586 career minutes Langford has averaged less than 7 points, 5 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1 steal, 1 block per 36 minutes, and he has a TS% around 42%.

He's been bad, basically.  Really bad, and not in a "young guy doing a lot of stuff and making things worse on net" kind of bad.  Just a "not really impacting the game when he's out there" kind of bad. 


Yes there are plenty of caveats.  He's been hurt. He's only 21 years old.  He didn't get much seasoning in college.

But eventually those caveats go from being reasons to hold out hope to reasons to think that a guy has simply missed his window to help out the team that drafted him.  I suspect that if Romeo is going to make it, it's going to be on another team.  Unfortunately I don't think he's a guy who's likely to have the option of going overseas, because foreign teams tend to expect guys to have some well defined skills.

perhaps pho, perhaps.

but romeo has played in a grand total of 46 games. just over 1/2 of a season. and with injuries, CBS game plans, etc. i just am not ready to pass any form of final judgement on him.

he plays good defense. he attacks the basket well. that is a start. let's be patient and wait and see. yes, i realize such sentiments may get me banned from CS, but i am just such a rebel. 

[footey]

I'm not optimistic.  He's been available so little his first couple of seasons and when he has been available, though he has shown some things on defense, he's been pretty unproductive.  He simply hasn't demonstrated that he has much in the way of NBA level skills.  That's really concerning for a guy who is going to be on the third season of his rookie deal and was drafted as a lottery pick.

Not saying you said this about Rob, but a fair number of folk here had the same criticism of Rob Williams, who like Langford played very little his first two seasons due to injury.  I would not judge him until he gets a full season in.  He clearly can play defense quite well. It's just a question of what type of player he can be on the offensive end.

The thing is Rob was super productive even in his rookie season in very limited minutes.  He completed 70% of his attempts (i.e. dunks and layups), blocked 5 shots per 36 minutes, and grabbed 1 steal per 36 minutes.  He averaged .206 WS/48 in his rookie season.

It was easy to see that was a small sample size thing, but also that was an indication that he might still be very productive once he was able to earn more minutes. 


In 586 career minutes Langford has averaged less than 7 points, 5 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 1 steal, 1 block per 36 minutes, and he has a TS% around 42%.

He's been bad, basically.  Really bad, and not in a "young guy doing a lot of stuff and making things worse on net" kind of bad.  Just a "not really impacting the game when he's out there" kind of bad. 


Yes there are plenty of caveats.  He's been hurt. He's only 21 years old.  He didn't get much seasoning in college.

But eventually those caveats go from being reasons to hold out hope to reasons to think that a guy has simply missed his window to help out the team that drafted him.  I suspect that if Romeo is going to make it, it's going to be on another team.  Unfortunately I don't think he's a guy who's likely to have the option of going overseas, because foreign teams tend to expect guys to have some well defined skills.

What were Jaylen Brown's WS/48 the first 46 games into his career? I bet pretty unimpressive, and I have no idea what WS/48 means, although it probably is a sophisticated measure of  value relative to minutes played.

It is a mistake to draw conclusions on young players so early into their careers.   Look at Nesmith. One month ago he was the consensus "bad pick" by Danny poster child. Now he is looking like a potential stud.  Things change. And fast.

[PhoSita]

What were Jaylen Brown's WS/48 the first 46 games into his career? I bet pretty unimpressive, and I have no idea what WS/48 means, although it probably is a sophisticated measure of  value relative to minutes played.

Jaylen's per-36 for his rookie season (total 1341 minutes played averaging 17.2 mpg) --- 13.8 pts 5.9 reb 1.7 ast 0.9 stl 0.5 blk on 53.9% TS.

Slicing it thinner, Jaylen averaged 8 points per game the first month of his rookie season on 62.5% TS.  He fell off a bit the next few months, then jumped up to 10.4 pts per game on 60.6% TS in February.  He closed out the season with two more months around 8 points per game.

In short, Jaylen really just is not a good comparison here.  He came into the league as a fairly productive, if limited player, and has simply added more to his game and to his capacity (more minutes, more shots, more ballhandling, etc), with each passing season.




WS/48 refers to "Win Shares per 48 minutes."  It's a way of measuring overall impact on the box score + wins/losses on a per minute basis.

Hyperproductive players end up around .200 or better.  That's Rob Williams.

.100 means a player is pretty good.

Below 0.050 means a player is either a defensive specialist or just not really doing much out there.



You're right that it can be problematic to pass judgment on a player too soon.  However, Nesmith is still in his rookie season, and even before his more productive outings recently, he at least made sure you noticed him out there with his hustle and energy.  Nesmith is also a guy who has really good shot mechanics, which offered reason to trust that his jumpshot would come along even when he has struggled at times.  That logic doesn't always work out (see Ben McLemore), but it's different from a guy like Langford who fell in the draft in part because of questions about the basic mechanics of his jumpshot.

So far Langford is more comparable to someone like James Young, who came in young and raw and struggled to stay on the floor or produce from day one.  Now, I think the reasons for that are different in those cases. But in terms of on the court impact, they're not far apart.  Langford at least has shown flashes of on-ball defensive ability, but it's hard to roster a guy based solely on his potential as a wing defender.  There are undrafted players available every year who can offer that package.  Javonte Green is an example.  Javonte is a much more polished offensive player than Romeo at this point, honestly.

[gouki88]

I think he needs a preseason where he’s not rehabbing and can actually play with the team before we write him off

[Who]

Langford's career is going to come down to whether he can learn to make a perimeter jump-shot consistently or not. That is what is killing him out. An inability to space the floor. An inability to make his defender respect his jumper which is hurting his ability to drive to the rim which he does well. He defends well. He rebounds well. He drives well. He can finish at the rim.

He has some skills but that jumper is killing him.

Not to dissimilar to what RJ Barrett went through last season and early this season before showing off his impressive improvement over the last few months making himself one of the most valuable contributors on those surprising Knicks team.