Grading Danny's deadline-day moves

[Moranis]

Any "insiders" wanna share what the ESPN gurus were passing out as grades, winners/loosers, etc?

Pelton gave the Fournier trade a B+ and the Theis trade a C-.  He gave Chicago an A, Washington a C+, and Orlando an A-.  So Boston lost all trades.  It appears he graded the trade before the Teague component was known later on.

[Roy H.]

Any "insiders" wanna share what the ESPN gurus were passing out as grades, winners/loosers, etc?

Pelton gave the Fournier trade a B+ and the Theis trade a C-.  He gave Chicago an A, Washington a C+, and Orlando an A-.  So Boston lost all trades.  It appears he graded the trade before the Teague component was known later on.

How is a mutually beneficial trade a “loss”?

I’d much rather have Fournier and his bird rights than two second rounders, regardless.

[Moranis]

Any "insiders" wanna share what the ESPN gurus were passing out as grades, winners/loosers, etc?

Pelton gave the Fournier trade a B+ and the Theis trade a C-.  He gave Chicago an A, Washington a C+, and Orlando an A-.  So Boston lost all trades.  It appears he graded the trade before the Teague component was known later on.

How is a mutually beneficial trade a “loss”?

I’d much rather have Fournier and his bird rights than two second rounders, regardless.

I meant from a pure grade standpoint.

[jambr380]

I think people harping on the fact that Danny didn't get a PF just aren't looking at this the right way. Danny explicitly praised Fournier as a 'shooter w/ size' in his post-deadline interview and called him 'switchable' on D. I get it, he is hardly a swing, but w/ Tatum and Jaylen, it was never actually essential that we locked down a prototypical PF; we just needed a wing. The fact that he can handle the ball and pass is a real bonus and should help cover that Hayward-lite role.

Also, not giving up any 1sts really helps our team's flexibility moving in the offseason. With Smart and TT on expiring contracts, along with all of our picks and young players, we are still very much in play for the next star who wants out. Of course we have Kemba's contract, as well.

Let's just hope we are able to re-sign Fournier to a fair deal. Losing the [majority of the] TPE to an expiring would be killer, and would be kind-of a waste of 4 2nd round picks.

[Ogaju]

Epic fail......as usual news is now out that he was outbid for Vuvevic and Gordon.

Danny needs to go!

[SHAQATTACK]

He saved the owners a bunch of dollars ,  threw the ball to Timelord ,  hope he is ready .

Not impressed at all . 

[Celtics2021]

Epic fail......as usual news is now out that he was outbid for Vuvevic and Gordon.

Danny needs to go!

Sure he was outbid for Vooch.  Chicago, a frequent lottery team, offered a lightly protected pick this year, an unprotected pick in two years, a top-10 pick center prospect from a couple drafts ago, and an expiring.  It was a great deal for Vucevic, and of course the Celtics weren’t going to beat that.

As for Gordon, the Celtics had a choice of Fournier or Gordon, and not both, if they weren’t going to move large amounts of salary.  As the large amounts of salary necessarily included important players in their rotation, getting both likely didn’t make sense, so the Celtics went with just Fournier.  I’m not sure Ainge made the correct choice, but if Fournier brings what we hope he does, it’s not clear that he didn’t.

[Roy H.]

Epic fail......as usual news is now out that he was outbid for Vuvevic and Gordon.

Danny needs to go!

Outbid, or the teams preferred the other teams' packages despite them being substantially similar.  We just don't know what those teams wanted from us.

[Big333223]

I think what yesterday's moves boil down to is: Theis out, Fournier in. The picks were second rounders and there were no other playoff rotation guys involved. Thinking about it that way, Fournier is a definite talent upgrade over Theis and he fits better with this roster. We've all known for weeks that either Theis or Thompson was going to have to go and Timelord was ready for more minute. This roster makes a lot more sense now and the team won't be hamstrung by the repeated tax next year. So I give it a B.

Two independent trades were done but they were very related.  Theis was not traded to get Wagner, he was traded to get Fournier. 

I wanted to quote Vermont here because I see a lot of people that don't seem to understand that. Wagner isn't as good as Theis but he also isn't walking into Theis' minutes. Timelord and Thompson will see more minutes and Mo will be a big body who can hopefully continue to develop into a reliable 3rd big.

[Sophomore]

I want this to work out and maybe it will, but I see a lot of downside risk.

Fournier is a pretty good offensive player, and I can see how he'll help us. Maybe, with another player to share the load, this team tops out as good enough to make the finals.

But that really requires everything going really well, and it's more likely we don't get there. Even if we do, the West teams look really, really good. How do we get better? Holding onto Fournier next year would take us *deep* into the tax for a team that isn't quite good enough. Kemba's value isn't going up. Langford and Nesmith are buried behind Fournier, so they won't get the burn they need. Are we at our ceiling with no way to break through?

A different way to play this would have been to try and sell off any vets we could get something for and put the Js on a load management system. Let Nesmith and Langford get some playing time, go through the growing pains. Finish out of the playoffs - the 12th pick or, if we are lucky, a top-4 pick in a loaded draft could give us a big leg up. Wait, am I really saying we should tank?

I honestly don't know which road I prefer. They both have big potholes in them.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Trading Theis for Wagner was a classic sell high buy low maneuver. Obviously, it could have been even better if Wagner had another year on his contract.

Theis has outplayed all expectations, and arguably, he has exceeded his abilities in his performance on the court. I love Theis and have appreciated his work ethic, intelligence, and humility on the court. But Ainge saw what happened in the playoffs last year to him. The winning formula is with a little more toughness and athleticism on the inside with Thompson and Williams.

He essentially traded Theis for a much higher upside player in Wagner. I don't think Wagner is a future all-star, but I can see a little Brad Miller to his game. If you watch his college highlights and compare how he looks to right now, it is obvious the guy has worked a ton on his body. It shows on the court. He demonstrated even last night the agility to drive by his man, and then counter with a spin.

The problem since Wagner came into the league is that he's never been able to put it together in on-court effectiveness, but the raw tools are there to be an effective rotation player on a playoff team. So far in the NBA he has played for a terrible Lakers team, a terrible Wizards team, and a terrible Bulls team. He hasn't played for a decent coach. He hasn't played with this much roster talent.

Ainge can make a hard sell to Wagner in the coming months to resign with us on a several year deal and develop his abilities under one of the best player-development coaches in the NBA. Ainge can say, "Look how we developed Olynyk, Williams, and Theis. Look how we got the most out of bigs like Zeller, Horford, Baynes, Johnson, Sullinger, and Theis. Signing with the Celtics is an investment in your future in the league. We can help you earn your staying power in the NBA while playing for a contending organization."

Unless another team with a ton of cap space believes in Wagner, offers him a starting position, and gives him a guaranteed huge contract (highly unlikely), I think any Cs offer would be the best offer on the table.

[PAOBoston]

I want this to work out and maybe it will, but I see a lot of downside risk.

Fournier is a pretty good offensive player, and I can see how he'll help us. Maybe, with another player to share the load, this team tops out as good enough to make the finals.

But that really requires everything going really well, and it's more likely we don't get there. Even if we do, the West teams look really, really good. How do we get better? Holding onto Fournier next year would take us *deep* into the tax for a team that isn't quite good enough. Kemba's value isn't going up. Langford and Nesmith are buried behind Fournier, so they won't get the burn they need. Are we at our ceiling with no way to break through?

A different way to play this would have been to try and sell off any vets we could get something for and put the Js on a load management system. Let Nesmith and Langford get some playing time, go through the growing pains. Finish out of the playoffs - the 12th pick or, if we are lucky, a top-4 pick in a loaded draft could give us a big leg up. Wait, am I really saying we should tank?

I honestly don't know which road I prefer. They both have big potholes in them.

Sorry, but not a fan of tanking and losing on purpose. This season hasn’t panned out the way people thought it would so far. A large part of that has been injuries and general under performance. The team is much better than they have shown so far. They are not true title contenders but I also don’t think they are a lottery team either. The next few weeks where they have like 7 home games in a row will determine a lot. They will have time to practice and get some home cooking.

[Big333223]

Trading Theis for Wagner was a classic sell high buy low maneuver.

I still think it's better to think of the Theis trade as a move "for roster and financial flexibility" instead of "for Wagner" but the above point is a good one. Is Theis ever going to be better than he is right now? He's about to turn 29 so he's not old but it's hard to imagine him getting better and its easy to imagine his game declining pretty young.

Wagner, as you said, is about to turn 24, has good size, and has never had a secure situation. Theis is obviously better than Wagner today but will that still be the case in 2 years?

[W8ting2McHale]

Trading Theis for Wagner was a classic sell high buy low maneuver.

I still think it's better to think of the Theis trade as a move "for roster and financial flexibility" instead of "for Wagner" but the above point is a good one. Is Theis ever going to be better than he is right now? He's about to turn 29 so he's not old but it's hard to imagine him getting better and its easy to imagine his game declining pretty young.

Wagner, as you said, is about to turn 24, has good size, and has never had a secure situation. Theis is obviously better than Wagner today but will that still be the case in 2 years?

While much has been said for Brad not playing big men, he hasn’t really had a lot of talent at that position to work with. One thing I think he has done well is utilizing an “Energy Big.”

None of these guys have been all-stars, or even full time starters, but they all brought a different facet to the energy big role:

Kelly Olynyk had holes in his game, but was successful because he  could provide a scoring spark.

Daniel Theis had holes in his game, mostly because he was 6’8” and not 6’11”, but he turned his role from energy to starter while he was here.

Rob Williams has been the energy big recently, bringing blocks and dunks to spark the team, and is growing into a starting role.

Will Wagner have success here? I think he can, because even though there are plenty of holes in his game, he brings energy and height to the mix. Brad and Danny like energy. Being able to run out a guy that’s 6’11” for 10-12 minutes a game is something the Celtics sorely needed.

[Rikibellevie]

C- for me

I waited before to rethink about that because i was first disapointed about the trade. Funnliy even if I don't like at all Gordon I waited this trade, especially with Danny reporting in the media our deficit of a streth 4/3. I was dosapointed also because we wiated something bigger (and Danny entertained this speculation) with TPE. Strange communication of Ainge who spoke the opposite from what he did (taking a 4, not taking an expiring, waiting for a big trade with TPE this summer).

But when I think more about the trade I understand a logic in that : trying to fill a big need for the end of this year with a good scorer coming from the bench brought without loosing almost nothing (OK 2/3 of TPE, but finally TPE was maybe close to nothing -as it is not an asset-) and making place in the roster for Timelord and even PP, preparing the future also. The 3rd bigs options seems OK (at least Wagner). So finally it isn't bad decision for now.

If Fournier resign with us to a friendly contract about 55-60M the next 3 years (maybe decreasing also), I would think it was a good TDL, but I am sceptical; he gave good production this year, improove each years a little and there is not many good FA. So a team will offer more something 85-90M on 4 years, that we can't or shouldn't do. So as I go for this sceptic future I give a C-. If Evan resign then it is a B for me.