Author Topic: (Update) Celtics NOT favorites to land Aaron Gordon  (Read 43623 times)

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Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #120 on: March 23, 2021, 09:07:24 PM »

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Do you think the Celtics current roster, plus Aaron Gordon makes Boston better than Brooklyn, Philly, or Milwaukee?

It’s not about being better than any other Team, it’s about improving the Team you have

If Such player or players makes this current team better you make the move


Problem with Ainge is simple, he has been reluctant to build a Team which is why your in this predicament in the first place

No, no, no. It's not that straight forward.

It is you make the move if it improves your team while allowing sustainable growth to the point of winning a Championship somewhere down the road.

If the trade does not allow that. If it takes too much of your flexibility away -- cap flexibility, future picks, young talent -- that it does not leave you with a way to make those next steps that you need to make in order to win a Championship ... you gotta walk away from that trade.

Because it is not solely about making the team better today. It is about winning a Championship.

-----------------------------

Jerry West had a good story about his time in Memphis when he first arrived there. He asked his owner - what's the goal: is it to make the playoffs or win a Championship? Owner (Heisley?) said make the playoffs. West said fine.

West traded in his chips (his assets) to fast track the rebuild and put together a 41-50 win team in little time at all. The problem was that to do that he had already moved away his assets and did not have enough flexibility (trade assets, future picks, cap flexibility) to take that next step and become a title contender. By the time the owner started to dream of more, it was already too late. That hand had been played.

The next step was a rebuild.

---------------------------------

You gotta have a road map to continued development to the point of winning a Championship.

That is the question we have to ask with A.Gordon. Are we a title contender with him? If not, how far away are we? How do we bridge that gap? How do we acquire the talent do we need? Do we have enough cap flexibility left after we add his salary? Do we have enough picks left after the trade? Do we have enough good youth left that can improve and become valued rotation to star players to fill those needs?

The answers to those questions are integral to deciding whether or not we should acquire Aaron Gordon.

Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #121 on: March 23, 2021, 11:39:52 PM »

Offline Muzzy66

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You gotta have a road map to continued development to the point of winning a Championship.

That is the question we have to ask with A.Gordon. Are we a title contender with him? If not, how far away are we? How do we bridge that gap? How do we acquire the talent do we need? Do we have enough cap flexibility left after we add his salary? Do we have enough picks left after the trade? Do we have enough good youth left that can improve and become valued rotation to star players to fill those needs?

The answers to those questions are integral to deciding whether or not we should acquire Aaron Gordon.

I think it could be a big step in the right direction.

I feel to compete for a title you need a few ingredients:
1 - You need special players who can carry you with game winning plays in big moments
2 - You need enough depth/versatility to ensure you can have a competitive group on the court for 48 minutes
3 - You need a strong identity / play style that gives you your edge over other teams
4 - You need teammates who trust each other and their coaches

#1: I think the Celtics have got this pretty much covered.  I have every reason to think that Tatum and Brown will be >24 PPG scorers for the next 8-10 years, and Kemba (even with the injuries) is a pretty darn good #3 guy at around 18 PPG.  That give Boston three guys who are all capable of scoring 30 on any given night, and three guys who are capable of creating offense when needed. If we get to a point where Kemba is no longer capable of being the 3rd option, then that can be addressed at that time.

#2: Right now this is a huge issue.  Our top 3 scorers have very little dependable scoring help, so they are forced to resort to ISO ball.  Replacing Smart (career 12 PP36 @ 38% FG) with Gordon (career 16 PP36 @ 45% FG) and Fournier (career 18 PP36 @ 45% FG) is a huge change offensively.  You're effectively +22 Points Per 36 improvement at +7% greater efficiency.  With this change we go from having 3 dependable scorers to 5 dependable scorers.  This means at any given time Brad can have two or three scorers on the court, and even if one or two guys are out for whatever reason the team can still hold the fort.  I think this alone is a total game changer for this team. Fournier also could give Boston the type of quality 6th man that the team has needed for years.

#3: This is also an issue now, the team has no identity.  It's a mishmash of random players who seem to have next to nothing in common.  Adding Gordon I think helps with this a bit. He's another long, athletic two-way player who can play multiple positions on both ends.  That trio of Brown/Tatum/Gordon with their length and quickness would be 100% switchable and could smother opposing teams on the defensive end.  On offense they would be deadly in transition, and they can all score either from three, from midrange or by going to the basket which makes them tough to guard.  Especially true when you throw in Kemba (who is blindingly quick when healthy).  Put TT / Timelord in at center to protect the paint and collect rebounds, and you have a strong identity as a team who can destroy opponents by playing suffocating defence, collecting the boards, and then pushing the ball in transition.   I can't think of many NBA rosters who could keep up with a quartet of Kemba/Brown/Tatum/Gordon in the open floor - could be an especially huge problem for bigger/older teams like Philly and the Lakers.

#4: Adding two dependable scorers means Tatum and Brown will always have 2 or 3 teammates on the court that they can trust offensively - this means they will no longer need too force ISO ball all the time.  Now the other guys on the bench (like Theis, Ojeleye, Pritchard, TT, Timelord) can play a simplified role by playing within themselves and just focussing on the things they do well. I think this will ultimately improve team chemistry in a big way. Gordon is also 25, so he could potentially stick around and build chemistry with Brown/Tatum/Pritchad/R-Williams for the next several years.

Does this make Boston a contender immediately?  I'm 50/50 on that.  It might.  On one hand, I wouldn't normally consider Gordon and Fournier to be game changing players, as they aren't exactly big stars.  On the other hand I don't think big stars is what the team desperately needs.  They were a pretty serious contender last season and really haven't lost much since then - which goes to show just how big an impact the right 2 or 3 players additions/subtractions can have on a team. Look at Philly, all they did is change their coach and a role player or two.  In this league one or two small changes (if they are the right ones) can make a huge impact. 

If it doesn't make Boston a contender immediately there is one thing I really am confident in - that it would be a pretty big step in the right direction.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 11:49:51 PM by Muzzy66 »

Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #122 on: March 23, 2021, 11:45:26 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Do you think the Celtics current roster, plus Aaron Gordon makes Boston better than Brooklyn, Philly, or Milwaukee?

It’s not about being better than any other Team, it’s about improving the Team you have

If Such player or players makes this current team better you make the move

Problem with Ainge is simple, he has been reluctant to build a Team which is why your in this predicament in the first place
[/quote]


No, you don’t just make any move in order to make the team marginally better. Especially if said move uses assets that could be used in the off-season to acquire a legitimate All-Star.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #123 on: March 23, 2021, 11:48:06 PM »

Offline aingeforthree

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Do you think the Celtics current roster, plus Aaron Gordon makes Boston better than Brooklyn, Philly, or Milwaukee?

It’s not about being better than any other Team, it’s about improving the Team you have

If Such player or players makes this current team better you make the move

Problem with Ainge is simple, he has been reluctant to build a Team which is why your in this predicament in the first place

No, you don’t just make any move in order to make the team marginally better. Especially if said move uses assets that could be used in the off-season to acquire a legitimate All-Star.
[/quote]

Problem with Ainge ? Reluctant to build a team ? LOL.

You’re coming off 3/4 Eastern Conf finals ? With a roster that is full of young talent. His draft picks by themselves can beat half the teams in the league with ease. What are you talking about ?

Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #124 on: March 23, 2021, 11:52:09 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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The whole "Gordon won't put us over the top" thinking is true, but then I consider teams like Miami who are never afraid to improve the team (even if slightly). It turns out your rebuild can go just as quickly if you are willing to make the team better incrementally. Who'd have thunk it?

Which trades did Miami make to improve their team incrementally? Pretty sure they got better by drafting really well and then signing  Jimmy Butler in free agency.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #125 on: March 23, 2021, 11:59:50 PM »

Offline Celtics2021

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The whole "Gordon won't put us over the top" thinking is true, but then I consider teams like Miami who are never afraid to improve the team (even if slightly). It turns out your rebuild can go just as quickly if you are willing to make the team better incrementally. Who'd have thunk it?

Which trades did Miami make to improve their team incrementally? Pretty sure they got better by drafting really well and then signing  Jimmy Butler in free agency.

The Iggy/Crowder acquisition last deadline was solid.  Of course, it cost them no picks and a they got to move $28 million in salary owed this year for players they were dumping (we’ll assume that Justise Winslow had value), so the price isn’t comparable for what we’re supposedly considering giving up.

Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #126 on: March 24, 2021, 12:12:30 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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So if the C’s do trade for Gordon for say, Nesmith or Romeo and a 1st round pick, how much is Gordon likely to command when he becomes and Unrestricted free agent after next season? If it’s $20M+ year, is that going to prevent the C’s from bringing in a 3rd all star player? Does that also mean that Boston will only be able to retain either Gordon or Smart as their contracts are up at the same time?

I mean, why do we need to worry about this at the moment

He is still under teams control for next season.   

Obtaining Gordon and getting back into proper playoff contention needs to be the focus

Proper playoff contention as in being the 4th seed and getting eliminated second round? This trade does not make the C’s better than the Brooklyn, Philly, or Milwaukee this year or next. Hopefully there’s another move coming in the off-season to add an actual All-Star that can move the needle.

How do you know that? 

Last year Philly was struggling to stay within the top 4, this year they added Dwight Howard and Danny Green and they are looking like the best team in the East.   Are Danny Green and Dwight Howard more impactful then Gordon and Fornier in your opinion?  I certainly don't think so. 

Likewise after the 18-19 season Boston lost Al Horford and "downgraded" Kyrie for Kemba.  People almost universally said that the team would get far worse, yet their win record improved from 49-33 (0.600) to 48-24 (0.666).

If Philly can add those two guys and become an instant top tier contender, and Boston could cop two "downgrades" and somehow improve...then I don't see why it would be so unfathomable that Boston could make the a major jump by adding Gordon and Fournier.  As i said in my previous post, modest roster changes can have major impacts IF they are the right changes. 

Granted, Philly's improvement has probably been more a result of coaching changes then player changes...but some might argue the same is true for Boston.

Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #127 on: March 24, 2021, 01:23:04 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I think if we added some depth that can play it would help us a lot.   Some of our guys are about as productive in terms of stats when they play as when they DNP.   It would allow some rest to the J's and they would not always have to dig out of holes every time they come back into the game after a rest.

Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #128 on: March 24, 2021, 02:15:02 AM »

Offline aingeforthree

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If we can land Fournier and Gordon for just Marcus Smart and picks ?

That’s one heckuva deal for the Celtics. Big time steal IMO

Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #129 on: March 24, 2021, 02:25:22 AM »

Offline Muzzy66

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If we can land Fournier and Gordon for just Marcus Smart and picks ?

That’s one heckuva deal for the Celtics. Big time steal IMO

Yeah, I agree. That deal massively favours Boston IMHO. 

Best part is that Boston is hard capped, so they can only use about $19M of the TPE.  This means if Danny does this deal he would get Aaron Gordon (a decent replacement for Hayward), Fournier (a legit 19 PPG scorer) and on top of that would still retain around $10M of the TPE which Danny could then use in the off-season to bring in yet another useful piece.

I really can't see any angle from which this trade appears bad.  Seems like about as close to a no-brainer as it gets UNLESS there is another deal available that's even better.

I actually think I like this even better then the John Collins option.  I'm not nearly as high on Collins as many people here seem to be.

Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #130 on: March 24, 2021, 02:37:16 AM »

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If we can land Fournier and Gordon for just Marcus Smart and picks ?

That’s one heckuva deal for the Celtics. Big time steal IMO

Yeah, I agree. That deal massively favours Boston IMHO. 

Best part is that Boston is hard capped, so they can only use about $19M of the TPE.  This means if Danny does this deal he would get Aaron Gordon (a decent replacement for Hayward), Fournier (a legit 19 PPG scorer) and on top of that would still retain around $10M of the TPE which Danny could then use in the off-season to bring in yet another useful piece.

I really can't see any angle from which this trade appears bad.  Seems like about as close to a no-brainer as it gets UNLESS there is another deal available that's even better.

I actually think I like this even better then the John Collins option.  I'm not nearly as high on Collins as many people here seem to be.

But the Celtics faithful do not want to give up their fearless leader and defensive monster in Smart nor do they want to surrender their picks- who would very likely become the Carsen Edwards or at best the Romeo Langfords of picks lol.


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Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #131 on: March 24, 2021, 03:45:24 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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If we can land Fournier and Gordon for just Marcus Smart and picks ?

That’s one heckuva deal for the Celtics. Big time steal IMO

That deal is literally impossible because of the hard cap, so I’m pretty confident it is not the deal being discussed.

Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #132 on: March 24, 2021, 06:07:54 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I prefer Kemba, a first and GW for Fournier and Gordon. Feel keeping Smart's defense is more important. I'd consider starting Fournier at PG.
Starters
Fournier, Brown, Tatum, Gordon, RW
They would be very switch capable and have plenty of fire power.

Bench
PP, Smart, Theis, TT
These bench players would see 14 to 24 mins a night. with
First Guard=Smart
First Big= Theis
No bench Wing needed as Fournier, the Js and Gordon can stagger bench rest minutes.
Second Guard=PP
Second Big= TT

Think that team if it gels, runs and plays hard on defense beats the Nets. Their upside is on wearing the Nets down with constant pressure. Same for going against 76ers and Bucks. They could run teams out and use length at each position to smother teams.

Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #133 on: March 24, 2021, 07:21:41 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I prefer Kemba, a first and GW for Fournier and Gordon. Feel keeping Smart's defense is more important. I'd consider starting Fournier at PG.
Starters
Fournier, Brown, Tatum, Gordon, RW
They would be very switch capable and have plenty of fire power.

Bench
PP, Smart, Theis, TT
These bench players would see 14 to 24 mins a night. with
First Guard=Smart
First Big= Theis
No bench Wing needed as Fournier, the Js and Gordon can stagger bench rest minutes.
Second Guard=PP
Second Big= TT


That deal would enable our bench to get up to NBA standards, too.

Re: The athletic: Celtics favorites to land Aaron Gordon?
« Reply #134 on: March 24, 2021, 07:32:48 AM »

Offline gouki88

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I prefer Kemba, a first and GW for Fournier and Gordon. Feel keeping Smart's defense is more important. I'd consider starting Fournier at PG.
Starters
Fournier, Brown, Tatum, Gordon, RW
They would be very switch capable and have plenty of fire power.

Bench
PP, Smart, Theis, TT
These bench players would see 14 to 24 mins a night. with
First Guard=Smart
First Big= Theis
No bench Wing needed as Fournier, the Js and Gordon can stagger bench rest minutes.
Second Guard=PP
Second Big= TT

Think that team if it gels, runs and plays hard on defense beats the Nets. Their upside is on wearing the Nets down with constant pressure. Same for going against 76ers and Bucks. They could run teams out and use length at each position to smother teams.
Evan Fournier has never in his life been able to play PG. That starting lineup would get crushed by small quick guards on the perimeter.

Other than that, could be a solid team
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PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
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