Jaylen brown rant

[Moranis]

Tell me where I’m wrong.

Pretty much everywhere?

The guy was selected as one of the top 24 players in the NBA this year. Since there are 30 teams, it is hard to envision him as a third option on a championship team. How many teams have three All-Stars? One?

I also disagree with the idea that he cannot drive, as about 40% of his offense comes from within 10 feet of the basket.  He finishes at the rim very efficiently, and leads the team in FTA.

Lastly, it seems odd to project that he has reached his ceiling, when he has improved so much the last two seasons.

I disagree with much of the premise of the thread, but to be fair I think Brown is in fact the 3rd or 4th best player on the vast majority of this years contenders with Milwaukee and perhaps Philly depending on how you view Brown vs. Simmons being the only exceptions (and I think some would argue that Middleton and/or Holiday are currently better than Brown - I wouldn't).  That said, Brown isn't done growing and I do think he can develop into a 2nd best player on a title team type player. 

[NKY fan]

Tell me where I’m wrong.

Pretty much everywhere?

The guy was selected as one of the top 24 players in the NBA this year. Since there are 30 teams, it is hard to envision him as a third option on a championship team. How many teams have three All-Stars? One?

I also disagree with the idea that he cannot drive, as about 40% of his offense comes from within 10 feet of the basket.  He finishes at the rim very efficiently, and leads the team in FTA.

Lastly, it seems odd to project that he has reached his ceiling, when he has improved so much the last two seasons.

I disagree with much of the premise of the thread, but to be fair I think Brown is in fact the 3rd or 4th best player on the vast majority of this years contenders with Milwaukee and perhaps Philly depending on how you view Brown vs. Simmons being the only exceptions (and I think some would argue that Middleton and/or Holiday are currently better than Brown - I wouldn't).  That said, Brown isn't done growing and I do think he can develop into a 2nd best player on a title team type player.

So brown has to reach Lowry or Siakam level? I think he got that already

[celticsclay]

Tell me where I’m wrong.

Pretty much everywhere?

The guy was selected as one of the top 24 players in the NBA this year. Since there are 30 teams, it is hard to envision him as a third option on a championship team. How many teams have three All-Stars? One?

I also disagree with the idea that he cannot drive, as about 40% of his offense comes from within 10 feet of the basket.  He finishes at the rim very efficiently, and leads the team in FTA.

Lastly, it seems odd to project that he has reached his ceiling, when he has improved so much the last two seasons.

I disagree with much of the premise of the thread, but to be fair I think Brown is in fact the 3rd or 4th best player on the vast majority of this years contenders with Milwaukee and perhaps Philly depending on how you view Brown vs. Simmons being the only exceptions (and I think some would argue that Middleton and/or Holiday are currently better than Brown - I wouldn't).  That said, Brown isn't done growing and I do think he can develop into a 2nd best player on a title team type player.

What team would he be the 4th best player for? The only team I can even see an argument on would be the nets, but I would prefer him to irving personally. He would clearly be third on clippers and lakers. I would have him as second on jazz, bucks and maybe 76ers (as you mention they are debatable)

[gouki88]

Didn’t you want us to trade Brown for JJ Redick a few years ago?

[droopdog7]

Didn’t you want us to trade Brown for JJ Redick a few years ago?

Man, that was Avery Bradley for Reddick like a million years ago.  But hell, I don't remember everything I've ever posted so who knows.

[Ed Monix]

As fans we are way to emotional to be unobjectionable with our team.

Most were furious when Ainge didn’t trade for Butler, but he was right.

Some booed when we didn’t trade for George, but he was right.

We were mostly ecstatic when Ainge traded for Irving then when it fell apart we were furious Angie traded for Irving.

We were happy Angie got Walker, then p---ed off we signed him

We were laughing when Hayward got his Hornets contract then furious that Ainge let him leave.

We were hoping and praying that Ainge didn’t trade for Harden then some are upset we didn’t.

[#1P4P]

First, anyone that wouldn’t trade Brown for someone like Beal is smoking.  And yes, I know that’s the majority of fans.  But what do people actually think he is? 

Dude is 24 and has entered his peak.  There are no more significant leaps to be had.  What we saw early this year is a product of increased opportunity, not significant improvement.

Offensively Jaylen is the textbook definition of an empty numbers guy.  Or better yet, what you see is what you get.  He doesn’t have any gravity.  He isn’t running an offense or making guys better.  If his shot isn’t falling, he’s got nothing on offense.

Of course, fans yelling at him to drive to the basket when his shot isn’t falling fail to recognize that he can’t.  He can’t because his handle still isn’t there and he lacks diversity to his drives and other teams collapse on him because he can’t make them pay with the pass.  And no, the great players have options when their shot isn’t falling. 

In terms of defense, Jaylen isn’t a great defender, he a versatile one.  Now these guys are valuable for team defense because the other team will attack the weak link.  If you can minimize the weak links, you can have a good defense and brown is valuable in that sense. 

I’ve always considered jaylens ceiling as a number 3 on a championship contender. Our problem is that we don’t have a number 2.  Kemba getting his game back our only shot at making any real noise in the post season.  And by noise I mean getting out of the first round.

I’m fully aware that I will be called reactionary.  But a 24 year old supposed superstar should not be having so many games like this.  But if you disagree, fine.  Tell me where I’m wrong.  Don’t give me a nothing response that only shows that you don’t have one.

Brown’s statistically and visibly improved every year, so trying to pigeonhole his ceiling to this version is misleading. As his opportunities have increased and the quality of his teammates decreased, his efficiency has improved along with his production.

It’s ironic you mention Beal after he just went 6-22 against the Grizzlies. Brown’s 24, just entering his prime years, Beal is 27, in the middle of his prime years. Despite that, he has a higher FG%, 3P%, and eFG% this year, projects to be better than Beal as he’s outperformed across the board relative to Beal’s first 5 seasons. He’s a better defender than him, defends 1-4 well, and is always game to take on the difficult assignments.

You’ve always considered Jaylen’s ceiling as a #3 on a Championship contender and refused to reconsider the mistake after he’s blown past it. The tone of this thread is very similar to the tone surrounding Tatum pre-2020ASG. Hopefully, this thread ages about as well as those.

My biggest gripe with Jaylen has been his lack of aggression. So I enjoyed seeing Brown stay aggressive and put up 23 FGA. Those types of games are necessary growing pains for young players continuing to grow (like Tatum pre-ASG last season)..

[tstorey_97]

I respect the possibility of trading a top player in order to improve. I also see Brown's weaknesses as I do with all the players on the team.

I think the core of any beef about the 20/21 Boston Celtics is they aren't there yet.  Perhaps up until today? You could blame part of it on the J's "development."

I think the J's are at a point where, if they had the right players around them, they'd go pretty deep into the playoffs. Ainge hasn't got it yet and pointing at a current player as a reason for weakness makes little sense.

Walker - Tatum - Brown

Aren't going to get it done barring a miracle.

Tatum - Brown and another top NBA player might get it done but, please, you root for the Celtics, review all of their titles...it is about defense.

[Big333223]

Everyone else has already said it, but I'll reiterate that the OP is an emotional reaction and has not real logic to it.

I'll throw this is:

Kawhi was 24 when he made his first all star game. Paul Pierce, too. Jimmy Butler and Steph were 25 (although Steph should've made it at 24). There is plenty of president for guys who learn and grow and become great after their initial seasons. Jaylen's growth and physical abilities suggest to me he has incredible potential.

I mean, Lebron seems to think so.

[droopdog7]

First, anyone that wouldn’t trade Brown for someone like Beal is smoking.  And yes, I know that’s the majority of fans.  But what do people actually think he is? 

Dude is 24 and has entered his peak.  There are no more significant leaps to be had.  What we saw early this year is a product of increased opportunity, not significant improvement.

Offensively Jaylen is the textbook definition of an empty numbers guy.  Or better yet, what you see is what you get.  He doesn’t have any gravity.  He isn’t running an offense or making guys better.  If his shot isn’t falling, he’s got nothing on offense.

Of course, fans yelling at him to drive to the basket when his shot isn’t falling fail to recognize that he can’t.  He can’t because his handle still isn’t there and he lacks diversity to his drives and other teams collapse on him because he can’t make them pay with the pass.  And no, the great players have options when their shot isn’t falling. 

In terms of defense, Jaylen isn’t a great defender, he a versatile one.  Now these guys are valuable for team defense because the other team will attack the weak link.  If you can minimize the weak links, you can have a good defense and brown is valuable in that sense. 

I’ve always considered jaylens ceiling as a number 3 on a championship contender. Our problem is that we don’t have a number 2.  Kemba getting his game back our only shot at making any real noise in the post season.  And by noise I mean getting out of the first round.

I’m fully aware that I will be called reactionary.  But a 24 year old supposed superstar should not be having so many games like this.  But if you disagree, fine.  Tell me where I’m wrong.  Don’t give me a nothing response that only shows that you don’t have one.

Brown’s statistically and visibly improved every year, so trying to pigeonhole his ceiling to this version is misleading. As his opportunities have increased and the quality of his teammates decreased, his efficiency has improved along with his production.

It’s ironic you mention Beal after he just went 6-22 against the Grizzlies. Brown’s 24, just entering his prime years, Beal is 27, in the middle of his prime years. Despite that, he has a higher FG%, 3P%, and eFG% this year, projects to be better than Beal as he’s outperformed across the board relative to Beal’s first 5 seasons. He’s a better defender than him, defends 1-4 well, and is always game to take on the difficult assignments.

You’ve always considered Jaylen’s ceiling as a #3 on a Championship contender and refused to reconsider the mistake after he’s blown past it. The tone of this thread is very similar to the tone surrounding Tatum pre-2020ASG. Hopefully, this thread ages about as well as those.

My biggest gripe with Jaylen has been his lack of aggression. So I enjoyed seeing Brown stay aggressive and put up 23 FGA. Those types of games are necessary growing pains for young players continuing to grow (like Tatum pre-ASG last season)..

With Jaylen as a #2 we’re nowhere near championship contention.

[Ed Monix]

First, anyone that wouldn’t trade Brown for someone like Beal is smoking.  And yes, I know that’s the majority of fans.  But what do people actually think he is? 

Dude is 24 and has entered his peak.  There are no more significant leaps to be had.  What we saw early this year is a product of increased opportunity, not significant improvement.

Offensively Jaylen is the textbook definition of an empty numbers guy.  Or better yet, what you see is what you get.  He doesn’t have any gravity.  He isn’t running an offense or making guys better.  If his shot isn’t falling, he’s got nothing on offense.

Of course, fans yelling at him to drive to the basket when his shot isn’t falling fail to recognize that he can’t.  He can’t because his handle still isn’t there and he lacks diversity to his drives and other teams collapse on him because he can’t make them pay with the pass.  And no, the great players have options when their shot isn’t falling. 

In terms of defense, Jaylen isn’t a great defender, he a versatile one.  Now these guys are valuable for team defense because the other team will attack the weak link.  If you can minimize the weak links, you can have a good defense and brown is valuable in that sense. 

I’ve always considered jaylens ceiling as a number 3 on a championship contender. Our problem is that we don’t have a number 2.  Kemba getting his game back our only shot at making any real noise in the post season.  And by noise I mean getting out of the first round.

I’m fully aware that I will be called reactionary.  But a 24 year old supposed superstar should not be having so many games like this.  But if you disagree, fine.  Tell me where I’m wrong.  Don’t give me a nothing response that only shows that you don’t have one.

Brown’s statistically and visibly improved every year, so trying to pigeonhole his ceiling to this version is misleading. As his opportunities have increased and the quality of his teammates decreased, his efficiency has improved along with his production.

It’s ironic you mention Beal after he just went 6-22 against the Grizzlies. Brown’s 24, just entering his prime years, Beal is 27, in the middle of his prime years. Despite that, he has a higher FG%, 3P%, and eFG% this year, projects to be better than Beal as he’s outperformed across the board relative to Beal’s first 5 seasons. He’s a better defender than him, defends 1-4 well, and is always game to take on the difficult assignments.

You’ve always considered Jaylen’s ceiling as a #3 on a Championship contender and refused to reconsider the mistake after he’s blown past it. The tone of this thread is very similar to the tone surrounding Tatum pre-2020ASG. Hopefully, this thread ages about as well as those.

My biggest gripe with Jaylen has been his lack of aggression. So I enjoyed seeing Brown stay aggressive and put up 23 FGA. Those types of games are necessary growing pains for young players continuing to grow (like Tatum pre-ASG last season)..

With Jaylen as a #2 we’re nowhere near championship contention.

I’m sorry it seems like you’re now being purely stubborn, LeBron was added to the Lakers and they still missed the playoffs. Is LeBron not up to it?

[Moranis]

Tell me where I’m wrong.

Pretty much everywhere?

The guy was selected as one of the top 24 players in the NBA this year. Since there are 30 teams, it is hard to envision him as a third option on a championship team. How many teams have three All-Stars? One?

I also disagree with the idea that he cannot drive, as about 40% of his offense comes from within 10 feet of the basket.  He finishes at the rim very efficiently, and leads the team in FTA.

Lastly, it seems odd to project that he has reached his ceiling, when he has improved so much the last two seasons.

I disagree with much of the premise of the thread, but to be fair I think Brown is in fact the 3rd or 4th best player on the vast majority of this years contenders with Milwaukee and perhaps Philly depending on how you view Brown vs. Simmons being the only exceptions (and I think some would argue that Middleton and/or Holiday are currently better than Brown - I wouldn't).  That said, Brown isn't done growing and I do think he can develop into a 2nd best player on a title team type player.

What team would he be the 4th best player for? The only team I can even see an argument on would be the nets, but I would prefer him to irving personally. He would clearly be third on clippers and lakers. I would have him as second on jazz, bucks and maybe 76ers (as you mention they are debatable)

He would clearly be the 4th best player on the Nets.  3rd pretty much everywhere else.  Mitchell and Gobert are both better than him. 

[byennie]

Tell me where I’m wrong.

Pretty much everywhere?

The guy was selected as one of the top 24 players in the NBA this year. Since there are 30 teams, it is hard to envision him as a third option on a championship team. How many teams have three All-Stars? One?

I also disagree with the idea that he cannot drive, as about 40% of his offense comes from within 10 feet of the basket.  He finishes at the rim very efficiently, and leads the team in FTA.

Lastly, it seems odd to project that he has reached his ceiling, when he has improved so much the last two seasons.

I disagree with much of the premise of the thread, but to be fair I think Brown is in fact the 3rd or 4th best player on the vast majority of this years contenders with Milwaukee and perhaps Philly depending on how you view Brown vs. Simmons being the only exceptions (and I think some would argue that Middleton and/or Holiday are currently better than Brown - I wouldn't).  That said, Brown isn't done growing and I do think he can develop into a 2nd best player on a title team type player.

How many teams is the "vast majority of contenders" minus two? I usually think of contenders as around 4, maybe 6 teams? For 4th best, anyone really other than Brooklyn? I don't see the point in describing it that way when there is a short list of teams to even consider.

The only teams I can see that would consistently have two guys ranked above Brown are Lakers, Nets and Clippers. If you're bullish on Brown, you could at least argue he's in the same league as a Paul George, or a Kyrie (who's a so-so defender and headcase). You can make arguments about other guys, but it's definitely not clear that Simmons, Middleton / Holiday, Jamal Murray,  Butler / Abedayo, Mitchell have a leg up on Brown.

So he's 24 years old, and one of the top 5 or so 2nd fiddles in the league. Can't imagine that being a negative.

[tazzmaniac]

Tell me where I’m wrong.

Pretty much everywhere?

The guy was selected as one of the top 24 players in the NBA this year. Since there are 30 teams, it is hard to envision him as a third option on a championship team. How many teams have three All-Stars? One?

I also disagree with the idea that he cannot drive, as about 40% of his offense comes from within 10 feet of the basket.  He finishes at the rim very efficiently, and leads the team in FTA.

Lastly, it seems odd to project that he has reached his ceiling, when he has improved so much the last two seasons.

I disagree with much of the premise of the thread, but to be fair I think Brown is in fact the 3rd or 4th best player on the vast majority of this years contenders with Milwaukee and perhaps Philly depending on how you view Brown vs. Simmons being the only exceptions (and I think some would argue that Middleton and/or Holiday are currently better than Brown - I wouldn't).  That said, Brown isn't done growing and I do think he can develop into a 2nd best player on a title team type player.

What team would he be the 4th best player for? The only team I can even see an argument on would be the nets, but I would prefer him to irving personally. He would clearly be third on clippers and lakers. I would have him as second on jazz, bucks and maybe 76ers (as you mention they are debatable)

He would clearly be the 4th best player on the Nets.  3rd pretty much everywhere else.  Mitchell and Gobert are both better than him.

The same could be said about Tatum, our #1.  He'd be #1 on the Jazz.  2nd on the Nuggets, Bucks and Sixers.  Maybe 2nd but probably 3rd on the Clips.  3rd on the Lakers.  3rd or maybe 4th on the Nets. 

[GreenCoffeeBean]

Here’s what I know:

You can win a championship with Jaylen Brown as your #2

The question we are all trying to figure out is:

Can you win a championship with Tatum as your #1?