Ainge on Toucher & Rich 3/11/21

[todd_days_41]

My problem with what Angie is saying now is that last year we could've been in the finals had Danny make a couple of tweaks and had more players who could actually play in that Miami series. Sometimes little tweaks and good role players are what get you over the hump. Singles and doubles are import too. They don't all have to be home runs Danny.

He said if Hayward had been healthy he thinks they could / would have gone to the finals. That's not a single or double. He was the best player Danny's ever signed here.

Best player he ever signed, who couldn't make an open layup.

Both are true.

That Miami series was really close. A couple of solid role players off the bench would've put us over the top. Anyone who could make an open jump shot would've put us over the top.

I think the point is: the Cs weren't winning a championship last year because they traded for Nemanja Bjelica or whatever. They needed another pillar, and that for the Cs last year was a healthy Hayward -- who created ball movement for a team who had a hard time breaking a high school zone defense. Same is likely true for this year.

And if I recall, Cs lost that series 4-2 to a team that then got smushed in the Finals.

[BruceBanner18]

Wouldn't ring so hollow if Ainge had actually pulled the trigger on legit top 5 (or even top 10) players when they've come available in the last few years.

There have been 3 Top 5 players available in recent years.

One was AD, who wasn't an option because Kyrie was on the roster and there's a rule that prevented AD and Kyrie from being on the team together that year.

Another was Kawhi, who was a 1-year rental. And although it worked out amazingly for Toronto, Danny decided it wasn't worth mortgaging the future (Tatum and Brown) for one year. We didn't have a Derozan type to trade.

The last is Harden, but again I think it comes down to not overpaying for guys that don't want to be here and who might not be better than Tatum or Brown in three years.

This narrative that Danny just needed to pull the trigger is wrong, imo. I think it's more complicated.

It is his statement about not making moves unless it changes the championship profile, that I was objecting to, because there were clearly moves that would have elevated Boston into the championship class that Ainge didn't pull the trigger on.  That is why I said it rang hollow because we've seen him not make those moves time and time again.  And you are correct, those are the 3 top 5ish players, but there have been a bunch of top 10ish players come available that Ainge has passed on as well (Butler, George come immediately to mind).  The one time he pulled the trigger he pulled it on the worst "superstar" that has come available and then didn't follow it up when he could have.

Ainge's lack of "the follow up trade" is as frustrating to me as a boxer throwing one punch instead of combinations.

Case in point, the kyrie trade was stupid if you weren't willing to make the follow up (which would mean parting with at least one of Brown/tatum). It would have been like trading for Ray Allen without following up with KG...useless and Ray would have been in Miami sooner if that had happened bc everyone knew he wanted to play on good vet teams.

Which seems analogous to kyrie seemingly changing his mind about boston mid-season and ultimately finding a situation/GM willing to trade youth and future for vet, superstar teammates today. IMO Ainge completely wiffed on that one...he had an obligation to trade the future for now after getting kyrie. More over it would have been better, for my opinion of him at least, if DA had traded brown and tatum for leonard (or whoever) and it NOT to have worked bc at least it would have been a realistic plan. Kyrie was never staying to play with the eastern futures team.. wasn't going to happen.

My fear is Ainge is making the mistake again. For my money, it seems vital in the next 18 months that the tpe and/or Kemba's salary slot get turned into either a legit top 5 player or 2 All star impact players...just like ones he appears to have hesitated on trading for recently. And when they come available, he needs to be prepared to pay a price of every draft pick this decade and all our young binkies. And we likely need to over pay... that's the price of entry. Otherwise, we're going to watch both Brown and Tatum get recruited away at the end of their contacts.

[Celtics2021]

Wouldn't ring so hollow if Ainge had actually pulled the trigger on legit top 5 (or even top 10) players when they've come available in the last few years.

There have been 3 Top 5 players available in recent years.

One was AD, who wasn't an option because Kyrie was on the roster and there's a rule that prevented AD and Kyrie from being on the team together that year.

Another was Kawhi, who was a 1-year rental. And although it worked out amazingly for Toronto, Danny decided it wasn't worth mortgaging the future (Tatum and Brown) for one year. We didn't have a Derozan type to trade.

The last is Harden, but again I think it comes down to not overpaying for guys that don't want to be here and who might not be better than Tatum or Brown in three years.

This narrative that Danny just needed to pull the trigger is wrong, imo. I think it's more complicated.

It is his statement about not making moves unless it changes the championship profile, that I was objecting to, because there were clearly moves that would have elevated Boston into the championship class that Ainge didn't pull the trigger on.  That is why I said it rang hollow because we've seen him not make those moves time and time again.  And you are correct, those are the 3 top 5ish players, but there have been a bunch of top 10ish players come available that Ainge has passed on as well (Butler, George come immediately to mind).  The one time he pulled the trigger he pulled it on the worst "superstar" that has come available and then didn't follow it up when he could have.

Ainge's lack of "the follow up trade" is as frustrating to me as a boxer throwing one punch instead of combinations.

Case in point, the kyrie trade was stupid if you weren't willing to make the follow up (which would mean parting with at least one of Brown/tatum). It would have been like trading for Ray Allen without following up with KG...useless and Ray would have been in Miami sooner if that had happened bc everyone knew he wanted to play on good vet teams.

Which seems analogous to kyrie seemingly changing his mind about boston mid-season and ultimately finding a situation/GM willing to trade youth and future for vet, superstar teammates today. IMO Ainge completely wiffed on that one...he had an obligation to trade the future for now after getting kyrie. More over it would have been better, for my opinion of him at least, if DA had traded brown and tatum for leonard (or whoever) and it NOT to have worked bc at least it would have been a realistic plan. Kyrie was never staying to play with the eastern futures team.. wasn't going to happen.

My fear is Ainge is making the mistake again. For my money, it seems vital in the next 18 months that the tpe and/or Kemba's salary slot get turned into either a legit top 5 player or 2 All star impact players...just like ones he appears to have hesitated on trading for recently. And when they come available, he needs to be prepared to pay a price of every draft pick this decade and all our young binkies. And we likely need to over pay... that's the price of entry. Otherwise, we're going to watch both Brown and Tatum get recruited away at the end of their contacts.

If the Celtics had gotten to the conference finals or finals with Kyrie and Hayward healthy in their first year in Boston, and then fallen short, the follow-up trade that summer would have made a ton of sense.  But, in fact, they made it to the conference finals with both of them out for the entire postseason and much/all of the regular season.  The hope/belief was that adding those two players to a conference finals team would in itself turn the Celtics into a title contender/winner.  Obviously that didn't happen, but it's not at all clear that a trade that summer would have produced a different outcome.

[Roy H.]

Case in point, the kyrie trade was stupid if you weren't willing to make the follow up (which would mean parting with at least one of Brown/tatum). It would have been like trading for Ray Allen without following up with KG...useless and Ray would have been in Miami sooner if that had happened bc everyone knew he wanted to play on good vet teams.

The follow up trade was Anthony Davis. Then, chemistry fell apart.

[Celtics2021]

Case in point, the kyrie trade was stupid if you weren't willing to make the follow up (which would mean parting with at least one of Brown/tatum). It would have been like trading for Ray Allen without following up with KG...useless and Ray would have been in Miami sooner if that had happened bc everyone knew he wanted to play on good vet teams.

The follow up trade was Anthony Davis. Then, chemistry fell apart.

Arguably acquiring Kyrie was the follow-up to signing Gordon Hayward coming off his All-Star season having just turned 27.

[#1P4P]

Ainge is one of, if not, the most candid executives in sports. He’s made his share of mistakes, but his approach to team building is one of the best in the league. His moves are about building a sustainable Championship contender, not wasting assets in a Dombrowski special.

The Bucks just mortgaged their future for a borderline lateral move. Holiday is better than Bledsoe, but trading him, one of the best 3PT shooters coming off the bench in Hill, 3 1sts and 2 pick swaps is one of those trades that we can trust Danny not to make. He understand that if the Bucks were to win a Championship it would be because of their 4th quarter execution and internal improvements from Giannis, Middleton, and Budenholzer, not from trading 7 assets for Holiday.

This is a similar approach to the Warriors and part of the reason why they built a dynasty that despite the injury to Klay still has legs 8 years later and counting. Patience!

[Ogaju]

Ainge also said something to the following effect:

we kick tires on trades all the time where we don't have any true interest in the player but want to gauge value, or our interest is very low but we just wanna see if we can get them at a very low price.

I think this goes without saying, but interesting to have a major sports GM come right out and say it.

He has to..in case you have not noticed he has been excoriated in the public sphere lately.

[td450]

Case in point, the kyrie trade was stupid if you weren't willing to make the follow up (which would mean parting with at least one of Brown/tatum). It would have been like trading for Ray Allen without following up with KG...useless and Ray would have been in Miami sooner if that had happened bc everyone knew he wanted to play on good vet teams.

The follow up trade was Anthony Davis. Then, chemistry fell apart.

The follow up trade was moving Kyrie after 2018-19. They'd spent enough time with him to know who he was.

[ScoobyDoo]

Ainge's most egregious crime is not that he didn't land one of the top five talents over the last few years.

It is that after watching Jayson Tatum play in the ECF's as a 19 year old rookie, and to a lesser extent watching Jaylen Brown play on those same ECFs, he failed to realize and prioritize the single and only thing that mattered from there.

That single thing he needed to accomplish is to find the third, age appropriate, player to pair with Tatum and Brown. Since those 2107 ECF's it has widely been argued that Ainge had the single largest war chest in the NBA for the last 3-4 years and STILL no young 3rd chip. That player could have been an wing, a Power forward or a Center. Flat out criminal...

The concept is to get the young three chips together roughly in the same age range - and let them grow from there. The other pieces around them are interchangeable. The fact that you also possessed the single largest war chest in the league and couldn't get that done is mind boggling.

It's still possible obviously but he's made it much harder on himself than need be.

It's also why, if you think a guy like John Collins is that guy, you might consider a package built around Smart for him. Or a package of Nesmith, Langford, Grant Williams and three first round picks for Collins, etc. I'm not saying Collins is "the" guy (he could be) but some sort of trade like that. Because once you have Tatum, Brown and that third chip that is the fit together - you're in legitimate contention for the next 10-12 years providing reasonably good health.

Time Lord
Collins
Tatum
Brown
Smart

Move someone in besides Collins as you like/prefer as far as the third chip player but that's the goal.

Ainge has had 3-4 years and the largest war chest in the league and hasn't been able to get that done? Brutal...

Heck, moving Hayward for Capella wouldn't have been bad. Once you knew Irving was a total nut job, or at a minimum it was clear Boston wasn't where he wanted to be, trade him for Joe Harris (Brooklyn would have jumped all over that and you probably also get one of Dinwiddie, LeVert or Allen too, anything, something....

Capella
Tatum
Brown
Harris
Kemba    better....

I have zero faith that anything meaningful will happen before the trade deadline and Ainge will have royally wasted yet another year of Tatum's and Brown's young prime. Solid work.             

[todd_days_41]

Ainge also said something to the following effect:

we kick tires on trades all the time where we don't have any true interest in the player but want to gauge value, or our interest is very low but we just wanna see if we can get them at a very low price.

I think this goes without saying, but interesting to have a major sports GM come right out and say it.

He has to..in case you have not noticed he has been excoriated in the public sphere lately.

Excoriated? That's being dramatic. Gary Washburn and Celticsstrong don't exactly qualify as "The Public Sphere".

[ConnerHenry]

I don't always agree with Danny, but full credit to him for being so available and candid with the public. Wyc too has been out there and accessible

Contrast this with our other sports teams -- imagine how Bill would response to aggressive questions about his drafting, trading or letting players go? Kraft only comes out for a gracious interview, never answers questions. And then there's John Henry, whose face should be on a milk carton.

[ozgod]

I'm ok with waiting till the summer. Let's make the most of it and see if our team can keep things going this season as underdogs.

[footey]

I'm ok with waiting till the summer. Let's make the most of it and see if our team can keep things going this season as underdogs.

Me too.

[Roy H.]

I'm ok with waiting till the summer. Let's make the most of it and see if our team can keep things going this season as underdogs.

The downside is that the value of the TPE is largely negated.  The one thing that we can offer right now that almost no other team can is immediate salary relief. In the summer, there will be all kinds of teams with salary cap space, meaning there are any number of teams that can offer what we can.

[RJ87]

I'm ok with waiting till the summer. Let's make the most of it and see if our team can keep things going this season as underdogs.

The downside is that the value of the TPE is largely negated.  The one thing that we can offer right now that almost no other team can is immediate salary relief. In the summer, there will be all kinds of teams with salary cap space, meaning there are any number of teams that can offer what we can.

Teams will also try to take advantage of the fact that the clock is ticking on the TPE and if we don't use by the end of the offseason, we lose it.