Gorman isn’t happy - went off on Tatum/Brown

[Phantom255x]

My biggest issue is that late in games, in 4th quarters, both of our young stars just seem to have trouble closing out games. This was true in the Heat playoff series last season (ugh) and it's been the case for a while now.

Yeah, Tatum and Brown have hit some clutch shots late, including game-winners. But some of the other things like grabbing boards, being aggressive, playing great defense on the other stars they go up against, that's not always evident.

Also, it's not just about the final 1-2 minutes of the game, it's the 4th quarter as a whole. The team can be up by 10 to start the 4th and it's almost like they just take a break and don't try to close the deal, hence allowing the other team to rally and come back. Stars are supposed to take over late to close out games and win, and that's an area where I feel Tatum and Brown struggle. It's not just on them, but those two are our best players and those are the first ones you look at.

Just in the past week, you see guys like Trae Young, Zion and Luka last night pull it off against us.

[td450]

I agree the ball sopping is worrisome, but I think the team needs to live with it this year so as to develop the Jays properly.

Let's face it, neither Tatum nor Brown are especially gifted with excellent floor vision or outstanding passing ability. Therefore, it must be taught them and the team is going to need to live with the ups and downs that occur with both of them as those portions of their games mature.

Kawhi is similar to Brown and Tatum in that regard. He really wasn't passing the ball all that much until he got to LA. He was over 30% in his usage while being under 19% assist ratio for 4 years. It took until Kawhi's 9th year to hit the 30% usage, 20% assist% plateau. Kobe took 5 seasons to reach it. It took Bradley Beal 8 seasons to do it. And our very own Paul Pierce took 5 years to accomplish it.

Brown looks to be hitting it that 30/20 level in his 5th year and Tatum in his 4th year. So there is hope. To be a great all around on ball offensive engine, you need time to develop the experience to know when to create for yourself and create for others. We just need some patience to get through the growing pains.

I also think this wouldn't be nearly the issue it is if more veterans were on the team, confident in their own game and won't differ to the Jays every trip down the floor. Or look exclusively for their own offense. I am actually kinda shocked Kemba wasn't mentioned. Or Smart. They both get ball hoggy/ball stopish. Compare that to Horford and Hayward, who were excellent, unselfish playmakers from the wing and frontcourt positions who made the offense run better. So in a way, this is Ainge's responsibility as well for constructing the team this way. 

It's also Stevens responsibility for not instituting more plays that force more off ball movement, more cuts, more passes and less isolation and hand off passes from their bigs. Stevens has a tough job though. He needs to encourage the duo to be the team's scoring leaders, while also teaching them to do it within the function of the offensive system and trust their team mates. They, of course, might respect their team mates more if most of their team mates weren't mediocre to poor players still on their rookie contracts.

So maybe, for development's sake, this is a bit of a bridge year, while the Jays learn. But let's hope Ainge and Stevens learn too. With this lack of ball movement, there is tons of blame to go around.

Have to disagree here. Stevens is responsible more than anyone. The same behaviors show up with Tatum, Walker, Smart and Teague. I do think this is inaccurate concerning Brown. He doesn't hold the ball and his passing is improving visibly.

The sets just don't promote passing and cutting. How many back door cuts have you seen this year? When Tatum or Walker has the ball, other than bringing one big to the top for them to rub off, who is moving? Does Tatum ever catch the ball on actions or cuts, ever? No. He either gets the ball high, or occasionally posts up on the wing. He's never moving. Ever.

Almost all of Brown's touches have him catching on the move, but that's for him only.

I think Gorman is wrong. The lack of ball movement is baked in.

[esel1000]

They need to quit this having Tatum bring the ball up nonsense. He should be playing off the ball, and someone like Pritchard needs to bring the ball up and set the offense.

Seriously has there ever been a solid, fluid offensive set where Tatum brings the ball up? If he had the passing skills of Doncic it may work but he doesn’t.

Furthermore Kemba needs to come off the bench and be a spark plug. Start Pritchard.

[nickagneta]

I agree the ball sopping is worrisome, but I think the team needs to live with it this year so as to develop the Jays properly.

Let's face it, neither Tatum nor Brown are especially gifted with excellent floor vision or outstanding passing ability. Therefore, it must be taught them and the team is going to need to live with the ups and downs that occur with both of them as those portions of their games mature.

Kawhi is similar to Brown and Tatum in that regard. He really wasn't passing the ball all that much until he got to LA. He was over 30% in his usage while being under 19% assist ratio for 4 years. It took until Kawhi's 9th year to hit the 30% usage, 20% assist% plateau. Kobe took 5 seasons to reach it. It took Bradley Beal 8 seasons to do it. And our very own Paul Pierce took 5 years to accomplish it.

Brown looks to be hitting it that 30/20 level in his 5th year and Tatum in his 4th year. So there is hope. To be a great all around on ball offensive engine, you need time to develop the experience to know when to create for yourself and create for others. We just need some patience to get through the growing pains.

I also think this wouldn't be nearly the issue it is if more veterans were on the team, confident in their own game and won't differ to the Jays every trip down the floor. Or look exclusively for their own offense. I am actually kinda shocked Kemba wasn't mentioned. Or Smart. They both get ball hoggy/ball stopish. Compare that to Horford and Hayward, who were excellent, unselfish playmakers from the wing and frontcourt positions who made the offense run better. So in a way, this is Ainge's responsibility as well for constructing the team this way. 

It's also Stevens responsibility for not instituting more plays that force more off ball movement, more cuts, more passes and less isolation and hand off passes from their bigs. Stevens has a tough job though. He needs to encourage the duo to be the team's scoring leaders, while also teaching them to do it within the function of the offensive system and trust their team mates. They, of course, might respect their team mates more if most of their team mates weren't mediocre to poor players still on their rookie contracts.

So maybe, for development's sake, this is a bit of a bridge year, while the Jays learn. But let's hope Ainge and Stevens learn too. With this lack of ball movement, there is tons of blame to go around.

Have to disagree here. Stevens is responsible more than anyone. The same behaviors show up with Tatum, Walker, Smart and Teague. I do think this is inaccurate concerning Brown. He doesn't hold the ball and his passing is improving visibly.

The sets just don't promote passing and cutting. How many back door cuts have you seen this year? When Tatum or Walker has the ball, other than bringing one big to the top for them to rub off, who is moving? Does Tatum ever catch the ball on actions or cuts, ever? No. He either gets the ball high, or occasionally posts up on the wing. He's never moving. Ever.

Almost all of Brown's touches have him catching on the move, but that's for him only.

I think Gorman is wrong. The lack of ball movement is baked in.

I am not quite so ready to dismiss the roster creation portion or the players' own poor judgment/poor performance portion of the blame and throw it all on Stevens. Stevens is responsible, but so are the players and the GM. They all need to do better.

[gouki88]

Walker is a far more serious offender given his newfound inability to hit shots when it matters.

I also think this is essentially overblown. We’re relying on guys who should be in the G-League or out of the league entirely in some games to play serious minutes. If anything, Tatum and Brown should shoot more. 25 FGAs each!

[Tr1boy]

Wyc will be on in a minute

https://985thesportshub.com/ 

[Tr1boy]

Wyc, Danny, Brad are like three of the same ... 

- Basically he doesn't believe Gorman.  Jays are passing the ball etc.   

- Wyc won't spend the full TPE at the deadline (highly unlikely)

[tstorey_97]

Let's take a look at the stats, I will say? The eye test has both of the J's relying on iso's late in games which would be fine if this was working and the team was winning.

Brown assists per game
1st yr .8 asts
2nd yr 1.6 asts
3rd yr 1.4 asts
4th yr 2.1 asts
5th yr 3.9 asts (this year)


Tatum
1st yr 1.6 ast
2nd yr 2.1 ast
3rd yr 3.0 ast
4th yr 4.0 ast (this year)

Will also say when they are on the court the rest of their team mates "give them the ball and run away." I mean watch the games, the J's more often than year's past get the ball to team mates who get the ball right back to them. Semi is both a good shooter and driver and he just defers. Theis is ok, but, ain't no volume shooter and is anyone happy to see Thompson dribble? Yikes.

Since returning Walker's numbers are as low as his worst season 2014/15 in Charlotte.

Trying to assign blame is fine...the Heat were 7-14 before they got it together and nobody died.

Celtics need to use this failure and get something going.

BTW...Robert Williams has been a monster. Stevens has stated he is limiting his minutes to save him for the playoffs...if the Celtics make the playoffs!!?!!?

 

[GreenCoffeeBean]

Walker is a far more serious offender given his newfound inability to hit shots when it matters.

I also think this is essentially overblown. We’re relying on guys who should be in the G-League or out of the league entirely in some games to play serious minutes. If anything, Tatum and Brown should shoot more. 25 FGAs each!

That's the Lillard-McCollum approach and it only works if you have three other guys that are great on defense. We have two problems:

1) Brown and Tatum aren't as good as Lillard and McCollum
2) We have zero defenders

[blink]

I think all these different comments highlight the fact that is most likely a combination of many things that have led to the poor season so far.
It isn't just Tatum and especially not Brown being ball stoppers.  Our mediocre start isn't solely a 'ball movement' problem / issue.

1) The offensive scheme that Brad uses puts players in a spot and doesn't require movement away from the ball.  It leads to a lot of standing around and that allows the other def players to clog the lane, and add extra pressure to the ball handler.  That is a problem when Tatum especially has the ball and he hasn't mastered the quick find the open man to counteract the double team. 

2) Our bench is def subpar, although we have some young potentially really good developing players.  We have no one on the bench we can depend on to get points and to take over.  PP had some good games, but that has leveled off.  Semi is primarily a def player.  Timelord for whatever reason isn't getting the minutes he needs to make a bigger impact.  Some of this will be better when Smart gets back and everyone moves down a slot.  But it doesn't fix everything.  We don't have a playoff quality bench.  We aren't a deep team.  Too many young projects that haven't worked out and are basically not playable.

3) We aren't as good defensively as we have been in the last few years.  I am not sure why that is, but it seems to be the case.  We lost GH and Kanter, replaced them with Tristan and Teague.  But we also seem to be playing more young guys this year with PP and Nesmith getting more and move minutes.  It feels like our def was better before Kemba came back, but that is just my eye test.  Kemba's def liabilities sometimes out weigh what he is giving us on offense.

[Ogaju]

They need to quit this having Tatum bring the ball up nonsense. He should be playing off the ball, and someone like Pritchard needs to bring the ball up and set the offense.

Seriously has there ever been a solid, fluid offensive set where Tatum brings the ball up? If he had the passing skills of Doncic it may work but he doesn’t.

Furthermore Kemba needs to come off the bench and be a spark plug. Start Pritchard.

This a million times.

[footey]

Just listened to Wyc. Absolute garbage.  "I don't see any selfishness". 

But what can he say? He's the owner, he can't criticize his two most valuable assets.

[MickaelPietrus]

FREE THE JAYS

[ozgod]

Scal said it better in the Post Game show...C's need to Drive, draw 2 defenders and kick it out---I saw way too much dribbling at the top of the key...and when TT got an offensive rebound against 3 Mavs---all 4 C's stood outside the 3 point line waving for a pass from TT, instead of running to the hoop--of course TT got tied up for a jump ball, which naturally we lost.

This team is really missing Gordon Hayward. Gordon did this for our team last season all the time, he sacrificed his ppg and his All Star stature to be a playmaker but then he got criticized for not being aggressive enough and not taking it to the rim. It's a special type of player to have enough vision to make the right reads to create opportunities for other people. We don't have enough of that in our team. We were really excited about having the Jays and we thought that Gordon, Kemba etc were taking shots away from them, but you need other quality players to be able to have those guys operate with freedom. They're both averaging more points this season but I wonder how much of it has been self-created as opposed to team created.

[Moranis]

First Things First on FS1 went off on Ainge today.  Just laid into him.  He, and basically only he, is what is wrong with the team (according to basically the whole panel).