Danny on T&R: We're Not Good Enough

[Vermont Green]

In the entire history of the league there have been something like 3 champions that didn't have a top 5 player on them.  Those are the last Spurs title, the last Pistons title, and the Sonics/Thunder's only title.  That's basically it.  The Spurs had 4 HOFers at varying career points (TD old, Manu old, Parker in prime, Leonard on rise), the Pistons were incredibly deep with 4 or 5 All Star level players including the 3rd best defensive big/rebounder of all time (only Russell and Rodman eclipse Wallace in those), and the Sonics had 2 HOFers the rise (Sikma, DJ), a multiple time future All Star (Williams), veteran depth, and won in basically the weakest season in the sports history (you know right before Bird and Magic entered the league).

Boston doesn't have a top 5 player.  Boston doesn't even have a top 10 player.  Boston has 2 All Star (and possibly All NBA) players, a clearly injury hampered former All Star, and basically nothing else.  This idea permeating this board that this team was going to compete for a title this year was just strange to me.  There is a reason so few teams win titles without top 5 players.  There is a reason teams without top 5 players rarely compete for titles for more than an odd season or two.  In basketball, you quite simply, need a top 5 player to really and truly compete for a title.  If you don't have a top 5 player, then you aren't really going to compete year in and year out.  It just doesn't happen.

What about when Dallas beat the Heat in 2011? Dirk was not a top 5 player at that point. I think the Celtics could be a contender if they had more veterans, legitimate big men and an overall more balanced roster. Too many young guys on this team and Kemba is just not good as a third option who is making max dollars.

I accept both of the basic premises; you almost always need a top 5 player to win a title and right now, the Celtics do not have one.  Those are both fair conclusions.

But what we do have is Tatum who could be on his way to being a top 5 player and Brown who could top out in the top 10 or top 15.  Now a lot of things have to go right for either of these players to achieve these high ceilings but this is still a pretty good foundation on which to build a team.

We are here without having to be bad for 5 years, without ever having to tank.  I think that is pretty good.

This core may never win a title.  Giannis may never win a title.  Doncic may not either.  But what can you do other than just keep making the best moves you can to keep making the team better and hope that you get really lucky and pick a star in the second round or something like that.  It is not like we are going to blow it up and trade Brown and Tatum because they might not ever win a title?

[hodgy03038]

It's only February 18 and we are a .500 team. We can't string 2 wins together against bad teams much less the good ones. I don't know what the delay is because if Danny is waiting until the March 25th trade deadline then it will probably be way too late for anyone to help this year.

[Tr1boy]

I don't think Danny will return to T&R

Rich to Danny:  "Well what can you do??"

Kept harping on it

yikes

[Moranis]

In the entire history of the league there have been something like 3 champions that didn't have a top 5 player on them.  Those are the last Spurs title, the last Pistons title, and the Sonics/Thunder's only title.  That's basically it.  The Spurs had 4 HOFers at varying career points (TD old, Manu old, Parker in prime, Leonard on rise), the Pistons were incredibly deep with 4 or 5 All Star level players including the 3rd best defensive big/rebounder of all time (only Russell and Rodman eclipse Wallace in those), and the Sonics had 2 HOFers the rise (Sikma, DJ), a multiple time future All Star (Williams), veteran depth, and won in basically the weakest season in the sports history (you know right before Bird and Magic entered the league).

Boston doesn't have a top 5 player.  Boston doesn't even have a top 10 player.  Boston has 2 All Star (and possibly All NBA) players, a clearly injury hampered former All Star, and basically nothing else.  This idea permeating this board that this team was going to compete for a title this year was just strange to me.  There is a reason so few teams win titles without top 5 players.  There is a reason teams without top 5 players rarely compete for titles for more than an odd season or two.  In basketball, you quite simply, need a top 5 player to really and truly compete for a title.  If you don't have a top 5 player, then you aren't really going to compete year in and year out.  It just doesn't happen.

What about when Dallas beat the Heat in 2011? Dirk was not a top 5 player at that point. I think the Celtics could be a contender if they had more veterans, legitimate big men and an overall more balanced roster. Too many young guys on this team and Kemba is just not effective as a third option, making max dollars.

Dirk was a top 5 player in 2011 (I think he was 5th behind Lebron, Kobe, Durant, and Howard).  Still in his prime, though the tail end of it. 

[seancally]

It's only February 18 and we are a .500 team. We can't string 2 wins together against bad teams much less the good ones. I don't know what the delay is because if Danny is waiting until the March 25th trade deadline then it will probably be way too late for anyone to help this year.

I don’t know if there’s a thing out there that’ll get us over the top this year. Help, maybe. But I don’t want help this year if it’s going to prevent greatness next year. I’m sure that’s not your point either... just sayin this ain’t the year for banner 18, in all likelihood. Whatever help is out there will need to be in service of making this team a proper contender in a year or two when we can develop our young bench or otherwise shore it up.

[Moranis]

In the entire history of the league there have been something like 3 champions that didn't have a top 5 player on them.  Those are the last Spurs title, the last Pistons title, and the Sonics/Thunder's only title.  That's basically it.  The Spurs had 4 HOFers at varying career points (TD old, Manu old, Parker in prime, Leonard on rise), the Pistons were incredibly deep with 4 or 5 All Star level players including the 3rd best defensive big/rebounder of all time (only Russell and Rodman eclipse Wallace in those), and the Sonics had 2 HOFers the rise (Sikma, DJ), a multiple time future All Star (Williams), veteran depth, and won in basically the weakest season in the sports history (you know right before Bird and Magic entered the league).

Boston doesn't have a top 5 player.  Boston doesn't even have a top 10 player.  Boston has 2 All Star (and possibly All NBA) players, a clearly injury hampered former All Star, and basically nothing else.  This idea permeating this board that this team was going to compete for a title this year was just strange to me.  There is a reason so few teams win titles without top 5 players.  There is a reason teams without top 5 players rarely compete for titles for more than an odd season or two.  In basketball, you quite simply, need a top 5 player to really and truly compete for a title.  If you don't have a top 5 player, then you aren't really going to compete year in and year out.  It just doesn't happen.

What about when Dallas beat the Heat in 2011? Dirk was not a top 5 player at that point. I think the Celtics could be a contender if they had more veterans, legitimate big men and an overall more balanced roster. Too many young guys on this team and Kemba is just not good as a third option who is making max dollars.

I accept both of the basic premises; you almost always need a top 5 player to win a title and right now, the Celtics do not have one.  Those are both fair conclusions.

But what we do have is Tatum who could be on his way to being a top 5 player and Brown who could top out in the top 10 or top 15.  Now a lot of things have to go right for either of these players to achieve these high ceilings but this is still a pretty good foundation on which to build a team.

We are here without having to be bad for 5 years, without ever having to tank.  I think that is pretty good.

This core may never win a title.  Giannis may never win a title.  Doncic may not either.  But what can you do other than just keep making the best moves you can to keep making the team better and hope that you get really lucky and pick a star in the second round or something like that.  It is not like we are going to blow it up and trade Brown and Tatum because they might not ever win a title?

Sure, but we are talking about this season.  I absolutely think Tatum can be a top 5 player.  I've been saying it for years, but he isn't yet.  I just think if the goal is to build around and win championships with Tatum (and Brown to a lesser extent), then Ainge has been doing a bad job of setting up the team to actually do that in a season or two.  He keeps making short term moves and not long term moves.  I mean what was the point of signing Thompson if that is the goal?  Frankly, why go so hard after Walker when guys like Brogdon (or even keeping Rozier) would have aligned much better with Tatum's timeline?

The biggest criticism I've had of Ainge over basically the last 5 years is that he keeps trying to win now and build for the future at the same time and by doing that he harmed or diminished the title chances of both paths.  Why acquire Irving if you aren't going to pull the trigger on a Leonard trade?  Why do you let George slip through your grasps when his asking price wasn't any prime assets?  Why has Boston not made a move at the trade deadline in like 4 seasons?  Ainge just hasn't had consistency.  He keeps making these moves, that may be good moves on face value, but don't mesh or fit with the totality of other moves or the team. 

[footey]

Danny blames it on lack of maturity, that the players don't fear/respect their opponents enough. 

[Goldstar88]

In the entire history of the league there have been something like 3 champions that didn't have a top 5 player on them.  Those are the last Spurs title, the last Pistons title, and the Sonics/Thunder's only title.  That's basically it.  The Spurs had 4 HOFers at varying career points (TD old, Manu old, Parker in prime, Leonard on rise), the Pistons were incredibly deep with 4 or 5 All Star level players including the 3rd best defensive big/rebounder of all time (only Russell and Rodman eclipse Wallace in those), and the Sonics had 2 HOFers the rise (Sikma, DJ), a multiple time future All Star (Williams), veteran depth, and won in basically the weakest season in the sports history (you know right before Bird and Magic entered the league).

Boston doesn't have a top 5 player.  Boston doesn't even have a top 10 player.  Boston has 2 All Star (and possibly All NBA) players, a clearly injury hampered former All Star, and basically nothing else.  This idea permeating this board that this team was going to compete for a title this year was just strange to me.  There is a reason so few teams win titles without top 5 players.  There is a reason teams without top 5 players rarely compete for titles for more than an odd season or two.  In basketball, you quite simply, need a top 5 player to really and truly compete for a title.  If you don't have a top 5 player, then you aren't really going to compete year in and year out.  It just doesn't happen.

What about when Dallas beat the Heat in 2011? Dirk was not a top 5 player at that point. I think the Celtics could be a contender if they had more veterans, legitimate big men and an overall more balanced roster. Too many young guys on this team and Kemba is just not effective as a third option, making max dollars.

Dirk was a top 5 player in 2011 (I think he was 5th behind Lebron, Kobe, Durant, and Howard).  Still in his prime, though the tail end of it.

You left Derrick Rose off your list and he was MVP that year, so Dirk was definitely not a top 5 player at that point. Players ahead of him Lebron, Rose, Wade, Kobe, Durant, CP3, Howard, Westbrook. You could argue that Duncan, Love and Griffin were as good as Dirk that year as well.

[KG Living Legend]

In the entire history of the league there have been something like 3 champions that didn't have a top 5 player on them.  Those are the last Spurs title, the last Pistons title, and the Sonics/Thunder's only title.  That's basically it.  The Spurs had 4 HOFers at varying career points (TD old, Manu old, Parker in prime, Leonard on rise), the Pistons were incredibly deep with 4 or 5 All Star level players including the 3rd best defensive big/rebounder of all time (only Russell and Rodman eclipse Wallace in those), and the Sonics had 2 HOFers the rise (Sikma, DJ), a multiple time future All Star (Williams), veteran depth, and won in basically the weakest season in the sports history (you know right before Bird and Magic entered the league).

Boston doesn't have a top 5 player.  Boston doesn't even have a top 10 player.  Boston has 2 All Star (and possibly All NBA) players, a clearly injury hampered former All Star, and basically nothing else.  This idea permeating this board that this team was going to compete for a title this year was just strange to me.  There is a reason so few teams win titles without top 5 players.  There is a reason teams without top 5 players rarely compete for titles for more than an odd season or two.  In basketball, you quite simply, need a top 5 player to really and truly compete for a title.  If you don't have a top 5 player, then you aren't really going to compete year in and year out.  It just doesn't happen.

What about when Dallas beat the Heat in 2011? Dirk was not a top 5 player at that point. I think the Celtics could be a contender if they had more veterans, legitimate big men and an overall more balanced roster. Too many young guys on this team and Kemba is just not effective as a third option, making max dollars.

 In what universe was Dirk not a top 5 player. He was bettet than Bosh, D Wade, and Lebron.


 In the finals Lebron Avg 17.6 ppg

 Dirk Avg 26 ppg and 10 rpg and shot 45 for 46 from the free throw line. That dude was easy top 5.

[Tr1boy]

Danny blames it on lack of maturity, that the players don't fear/respect their opponents enough.

yup. Then Rich asked  " well then what can you do"

Danny = along the lines "What do you want me to do??  Unless I can get cheap deal, I'm not making a trade"

It just went in circles. But the pressure is on Ainge. 

[Vermont Green]

The biggest criticism I've had of Ainge over basically the last 5 years is that he keeps trying to win now and build for the future at the same time and by doing that he harmed or diminished the title chances of both paths.  Why acquire Irving if you aren't going to pull the trigger on a Leonard trade?  Why do you let George slip through your grasps when his asking price wasn't any prime assets?  Why has Boston not made a move at the trade deadline in like 4 seasons?  Ainge just hasn't had consistency.  He keeps making these moves, that may be good moves on face value, but don't mesh or fit with the totality of other moves or the team.

You can argue both sides of any of these things.  Kyrie had nothing to do with building around Tatum.  Tatum was still in high school then.  The controversy there was moving on from IT.

As to all the Leonard and Paul George and Anthony Davis and ....  I don't know how anyone can say that if only Danny had done X or Y we would have this star player or that star player.  That is just pure speculation.

Now Kemba Walker is a recent enough deal that you can pick it apart if you want.  The rationale at the time was we had lost Horford to Philly and lost Irving, they didn't want to do a sign and trade so we could get a TPE so the deal for Walker had a large element of cap management or preservation to it.

Kemba played well last season and the team did well.  Then he had to shut down for his knee.  If we end up just dumping him, then the deal will not have preserved any cap flexibility. 

I honestly get the feeling that people are like, we aren't positioned to win a title right now so Danny is a bad GM.  My feeling is that if Danny was a bad GM, things would be a whole lot worse.  Is the Lakers GM really better than Danny?  How about the Nets GM or the Bucks?  Or is there also an element of being in the right place at the right time?

[PAOBoston]

It's only February 18 and we are a .500 team. We can't string 2 wins together against bad teams much less the good ones. I don't know what the delay is because if Danny is waiting until the March 25th trade deadline then it will probably be way too late for anyone to help this year.

The delay is we really don’t know what this team is due to all the absences with covid and injuries. The starting lineup from last years playoffs has basically played like 28 total minutes together. When healthy, I think the starting unit will be ok (Kemba/Smart/JB/JT/Theis). The bench we knew going into the season was going to be an issue. But it’s hard to gauge how good/bad they are with current roster when they are currently missing 3/5 of their starting lineup in reality.

Overall, clearly there is room for talent improvement on the roster. They could definitely use some role players who are proven/are what they are. This team has too many young players. They also could use a swing type player for defensive versatility as I think that is really the most glaring hole on the roster right now.

[Jiri Welsch]

Just listened to the audio, felt obligated to provide some bullet points because I made the thread 

https://985thesportshub.com/podcasts/toucher-rich/

These are all paraphrased Q&A's unless in quotation marks...

Q: What's wrong with the Celtics?
A: We haven't played well. Our starting team has only played about 20 minutes together this season, so we haven't had a chance to develop consistency. Nevertheless, we've been inconsistent and had many "stinkers."

Q: Isn't that a roster problem?
A: Yes, we have many young guys. But many teams without young guys are also struggling with consistency problems. COVID has complicated everything and it's worth mentioning. But still it is true that the depth on our team is an issue. It's tough when your 8th best guy needs to play as though he's your 4th best guy. "Our roster obviously is not good. We are a 14-14 team."

Q: Has the team tuned out Brad?
A: "Absolutely not. That's ridiculous."

Q: You say we ran into a buzzsaw, but three of these losses have been to bad teams. You don't see the lack of intensity on this team?
A: Yes, I see a lack of intensity. I see a lack of respect for our opponents. But this is not a coaching problem -- Brad respects those teams more than anyone in the locker room. Our lack of respect for the opponents is a maturity issue with the team, not a coaching problem.

Q: So how do you fix it?
A: It's not as simple as "get a center" or "add a PG" but we don't know our identity just yet, so it seems like we need to figure out who we are.

Q: Is this team good enough to win a championship?
A: We are not. We need a piece or two. The team still needs shooting with size. I hate to put the expectations on the players. I also recognize that for fans it's championship or bust. But getting to a championship is a process. At this point today, nothing is going to help us more than getting healthy.

Q: Have the recent struggles changed your mind or timeline?
A: We're always looking at players, it's our job. But "it's not that simple" because there are contacts, restrictions, salary caps. "If there's someone to blame, it's Danny Ainge...we're not good enough and we need to get better. There are ways to get better other than making trades."

Q: When are you going to revamp the roster, Danny?
A: References the 2010 team as a way of saying things can change. Sometimes the problems are just internal -- figuring things out and getting healthy. You don't always need to fire a coach or trade certain players. And sometimes you do. And we're in the process of evaluating presently.

Q: Isn't there a risk to sitting there and evaluating? Or a benefit to acting now?
A: Trades during the season typically happen closer to the deadline. When the Celtics traded for IT they had to wait a couple months because the initial asking price was way too high. So sometimes you do need to wait.

Q: When will Kemba be able to play back-to-backs?
A: Currently Kemba might be able to play back-to-backs but we're choosing for him not to. Theis maybe could have played, but we're choosing to have him not play. We are trying to manage the health of our banged up players so that they're healthy at the same time and the most important time.

Q: So what are you going to do about the team not being good enough for a championship?
A: Maybe by getting healthy we will outperform my (Ainge's) expectations. "Maybe this is not our time." But this isn't a fantasy game, there are a lot of players who are great that we simply can't acquire through trades.

Q: You're still 4.5 games out of 1st. Isn't that incentive to act rather than writing things off as maybe this isn't our time?
A: I'm not saying that. Maybe if we're healthy we can be better than I think. I think we're better than 14-14, I like our team. "I'm saying that we are looking to get better as a team in all of the ways that I've mentioned." However, right now we need to work through our kinks and wait until the trade deadline before making a trade. That's not to say we're not looking. We just need to accept that we're not doing deals just to do them.

[RMO]

Calling out the players like this seems weird.  I don't necessarily have a problem with it but it's really not the way things are done nowadays with professional athletes.  Egos have to be massaged and management is usually very careful about not upsetting their players.  The Celtics usually don't leak stuff to the media either so makes me wonder if it's gotten pretty bad in the locker room.

[NKY fan]

The biggest criticism I've had of Ainge over basically the last 5 years is that he keeps trying to win now and build for the future at the same time and by doing that he harmed or diminished the title chances of both paths.  Why acquire Irving if you aren't going to pull the trigger on a Leonard trade?  Why do you let George slip through your grasps when his asking price wasn't any prime assets?  Why has Boston not made a move at the trade deadline in like 4 seasons?  Ainge just hasn't had consistency.  He keeps making these moves, that may be good moves on face value, but don't mesh or fit with the totality of other moves or the team.

You can argue both sides of any of these things.  Kyrie had nothing to do with building around Tatum.  Tatum was still in high school then.  The controversy there was moving on from IT.

As to all the Leonard and Paul George and Anthony Davis and ....  I don't know how anyone can say that if only Danny had done X or Y we would have this star player or that star player.  That is just pure speculation.

Now Kemba Walker is a recent enough deal that you can pick it apart if you want.  The rationale at the time was we had lost Horford to Philly and lost Irving, they didn't want to do a sign and trade so we could get a TPE so the deal for Walker had a large element of cap management or preservation to it.

Kemba played well last season and the team did well.  Then he had to shut down for his knee.  If we end up just dumping him, then the deal will not have preserved any cap flexibility. 

I honestly get the feeling that people are like, we aren't positioned to win a title right now so Danny is a bad GM.  My feeling is that if Danny was a bad GM, things would be a whole lot worse. Is the Lakers GM really better than Danny?  How about the Nets GM or the Bucks?  Or is there also an element of being in the right place at the right time?

Pelinka has been pretty spotless so far. The Davis deal was fair. The players he signed were outcasts on their way out (bad shooters). Then he gets infront of the line and trades a very late first rounder for a top 15 point guard in the league while we are dealing with Hayward’s debacle and trading away good prospects like Bane for nothing.
Then the Sean marks turned the nets from the laughing stock of the nba to the theoretical #1 contender in a matter of 3-4 seasons.
I would say that pair has been miles better than Danny the last 3 seasons