Author Topic: Time to look under the hood  (Read 5976 times)

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Time to look under the hood
« on: February 10, 2021, 09:04:52 AM »

Offline Fred Ziffel

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The engine looks good. I wouldn't trade Tatum and Brown period. Awesome young players.  What about the other parts?  Theis has found his shot. That is a huge help. In my opinion it's the role players that are killing us.  They are soooo inconsistent.  The difference between winning games and losing games will be how they shoot the ball.  Grant Williams- hot and cold-Carson Edwards- we beat the Clippers partly because he got hot.  Semi-  very inconsistent shooter.  Javonte- not a shooter.  Two guys coming back at some point- Smart and Romeo- Inconsistent shooters.  Diagnosis- We have surrounded our top players with non shooters for the most part-------compared to Philly, Brooklyn, and Milwaukee. Danny- HELP

Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2021, 09:17:22 AM »

Offline cltc5

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Frustration is setting in with this team.  Brad is about to lose them.  Wyc needs to step in and put ainge and brad on the hot seat.  With their window closed by the end of the year

Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2021, 09:33:49 AM »

Offline cons

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i think coaching has something to do with the effective-ness of the bench guys though too.

they never know if they will play/ when/ how much

hard to get in a rythm that way

Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2021, 09:34:43 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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The engine looks good. I wouldn't trade Tatum and Brown period. Awesome young players.  What about the other parts?  Theis has found his shot. That is a huge help. In my opinion it's the role players that are killing us.  They are soooo inconsistent.  The difference between winning games and losing games will be how they shoot the ball.  Grant Williams- hot and cold-Carson Edwards- we beat the Clippers partly because he got hot.  Semi-  very inconsistent shooter.  Javonte- not a shooter.  Two guys coming back at some point- Smart and Romeo- Inconsistent shooters.  Diagnosis- We have surrounded our top players with non shooters for the most part-------compared to Philly, Brooklyn, and Milwaukee. Danny- HELP
for the first time since prior to the trade to acquire IT, the C's took a definite step backwards this offseason.  If they had been able to bring Hayward back, I think the C's would be a legit threat to get to and possibly win the finals.

We're at this point because Danny's grand plans for contending have come up short.  He made solid moves drafting Smart, Jaylen and the deal that got us Tatum.  The deal bringing in IT.  The signing of Horford.   The signing of Hayward.  Even the trade for Kyrie.   At this point, the team is a contender until Hayward goes down in that first game.  After that, it's been going downhill.

Bad asset management when he has too many picks and cannot trade them.  2016, smart enough to pick Jaylen but can't do anything with the later picks to either combine to move up for better players or flip for vets or flip for future firsts.  Yabusele was a bust of a pick because he had to draft and stash.  same with Zizic even though he was a throw in for the Kyrie trade.  all the second rounders netting nothing (although Abdel Nader's still kicking around the league).  This past draft another plethora of picks that were not used well --> unable to get any real value for the pick that ended up being Bane.  Gave away a player that looks like a solid prospect for future seconds that will likely net nothing.

Horford, Kyrie and Hayward all opting to leave the team with nothing to show for it but a large TPE that has no guarantee of being used (or used well).  Kemba being signed with an ironman reputation but being chronically injured for us.  The big move to get AD being squashed by AD by not even considering wanting to come here without immediately bolting to LA the following season. 

Romeo can't stay healthy.  GWill has regressed from the level he was playing at last season.  Timelord, for all his supporters here, still has major issues understanding and playing team defense.  The signing of Thompson has been underwhelming so far.  Teague has left most people longing for the good old days of having Wanamaker coming off the bench.

Right now, I'm not sure what can be done to fix this engine.  we've got 2 blossoming all-star players.  a perennial DPOY candidate who unfortunately makes some boneheaded plays during each game and a former all-star that still seems to have injury issues and has shooting woes so bad, if he threw a brick at the ground he'd miss.  The draft capital is now gone.  we've got a number of young players that I truly hope will develop and solve some of these issues going forward but that's all wishes right now without a lot of foundational support.  We don't really have trade fodder in terms of vets that we can sell off to other teams --> Kemba isn't bringing us anything great based on his current play and while Theis may be of interest to contenders, he's our best center at the moment.

not sure how Danny's going to right the ship.

Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2021, 09:35:43 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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The really bad thing about all of this is between horford, kyrie and hayward - we have absolutely nothing to show for it.

I thought the kemba acquisition was just horrible from the start and it's just gotten worse.

It's going to be really difficult to get this team better.

Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2021, 09:41:03 AM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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i think coaching has something to do with the effective-ness of the bench guys though too.

they never know if they will play/ when/ how much

hard to get in a rythm that way

That's just bs. I'm in no way a stevens supporter but that's the name of the game and the way it is. The guys that stick around in this league are the guys that work with what they get.

But on the other end of the spectrum there shouldn't even be a bunch of young guys on the bench.

Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2021, 09:49:26 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Move Kemba(plus picks) for George Hill and AL Horford. Use the TPE (plus a pick) for Barnes or Thad Young. Problem solved.

Smart, Hill, Pritchard, Teague
Brown, Hill, Smart, Barnes/Thad Young
Tatum, Barnes/Thad Young, Semi, Smart
Theis, Timelord, G Williams
Horford, Thompson, Timelord

That’s a contender. Depth at every position, good shooters and defenders at every position. And it’s doable.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 10:35:34 AM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2021, 10:23:48 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Move Kemba(plus picks) for George Hill and AL Horford. Use the TPE (plus a pick) for Barnes or Thad Young. Problem solved.

Smart, Pritchard, Teague
Brown, Smart, Barnes/Thad Young
Tatum, Barnes/Thad Young, Semi, Smart
Theis, Timelord, G Williams
Horford, Thompson, Timelord

That’s a contender. Depth at every position, good shooters and defenders at every position. And it’s doable.
that's bad salary management and not good talent wise. 
- Horford is not the same player he was when he was here. 
- Where's Hill on your roster?  he'd be the player I start at PG.  he's not as good as Good Kemba but better than Smart as a starting PG. 
- What are you giving up to entice Sac to give up Barnes and torpedo the season they're having?  better chance of getting Hield (who plays no D)
- What are you giving up to get Thad?  Would love to get him but the question is what are you giving up?

I don't see the C's contending this year.  Loss of Hayward killed that and Kemba's weak play have made them a low-level playoff team.   Only serious option I think they have is getting players healthy to fully evaluate who's got a future and who's got to be removed this coming offseason.  I don't see a miracle coming with the TPE this season at the trade deadline.  maybe in the offseason someone good becomes disgruntled and Danny can get them for a reasonable price.   I'd really like to see Romeo get healthy so we can see what he can do.  other than that, fingers crossed GWill gets back to where he was last season and improves, Timelord learns how to play team D and box out for rebounds, Nesmith shows he can be relied on for limited minutes and be productive, Pritchard continues to show he's a solid player and improves, Green continues to improve his D and develop an outside shot and finally, Semi goes back to being as good as he was earlier this season when he was playing solid D and consistently providing some points off the bench.

If all these 'ifs' broke perfectly in Boston's favor for next year, C's would only reasonably need a bruiser 4/5 that could come in and provide post D and rebounding against the likes of Embiid, KAT and Jokic.  Almost anything less than that, C's will have some real holes to fill around Jayson and Jaylen.


I have no hope at this point for Edwards, Waters or Tacko. 

Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2021, 10:38:34 AM »

Offline todd_days_41

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Move Kemba(plus picks) for George Hill and AL Horford.

Philly had to give up picks to get rid of Horford like 2 months ago.

So you want to give up the best player in the deal, take back a couple of guys who are like 50something years old, one of whom is on a god awful contract..... AND send Sam Presti some draft picks? How many? Like 2, maybe 4?


Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2021, 10:48:43 AM »

Offline Fred Ziffel

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Utah is playing as well as anyone in the NBA. We were down 4 with 2:45 left in the game.  We are not a disaster.  It's not about next year. Danny and his staff must get creative.  Bring in 3 teams if it makes it work.  Acquire a couple of players that can play important roles that know ho to win. Hopefully veterans that have been there and done that.   I would trade anyone not named Tatum and Brown.  Smart is a great chip.  Tristan is a chip.  Kemba- possible-to Chicago.  It's time . 

Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2021, 10:57:40 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Move Kemba(plus picks) for George Hill and AL Horford. Use the TPE (plus a pick) for Barnes or Thad Young. Problem solved.

Smart, Pritchard, Teague
Brown, Smart, Barnes/Thad Young
Tatum, Barnes/Thad Young, Semi, Smart
Theis, Timelord, G Williams
Horford, Thompson, Timelord

That’s a contender. Depth at every position, good shooters and defenders at every position. And it’s doable.
that's bad salary management and not good talent wise. 
- Horford is not the same player he was when he was here. 
- Where's Hill on your roster?  he'd be the player I start at PG.  he's not as good as Good Kemba but better than Smart as a starting PG. 
- What are you giving up to entice Sac to give up Barnes and torpedo the season they're having?  better chance of getting Hield (who plays no D)
- What are you giving up to get Thad?  Would love to get him but the question is what are you giving up?

I don't see the C's contending this year.  Loss of Hayward killed that and Kemba's weak play have made them a low-level playoff team.   Only serious option I think they have is getting players healthy to fully evaluate who's got a future and who's got to be removed this coming offseason.  I don't see a miracle coming with the TPE this season at the trade deadline.  maybe in the offseason someone good becomes disgruntled and Danny can get them for a reasonable price.   I'd really like to see Romeo get healthy so we can see what he can do.  other than that, fingers crossed GWill gets back to where he was last season and improves, Timelord learns how to play team D and box out for rebounds, Nesmith shows he can be relied on for limited minutes and be productive, Pritchard continues to show he's a solid player and improves, Green continues to improve his D and develop an outside shot and finally, Semi goes back to being as good as he was earlier this season when he was playing solid D and consistently providing some points off the bench.

If all these 'ifs' broke perfectly in Boston's favor for next year, C's would only reasonably need a bruiser 4/5 that could come in and provide post D and rebounding against the likes of Embiid, KAT and Jokic.  Almost anything less than that, C's will have some real holes to fill around Jayson and Jaylen.


I have no hope at this point for Edwards, Waters or Tacko.

Updated the depth chart. Smart or Hill starting seems like a wash one way or the other. Horford is having a good year. Easily as good as any he had with the C’s and he’s shooting 40+% from 3. He fit’s in with this team much better than Kemba and gives us a solid option to pair with Theis. Kemba does not fit in with this team and he’s shooting horribly. He’s hurting the team being on the court.

In terms of salary management any of the following are expendable: Teague, GWill, Greene, waters, Edwards, Tacko, either Thompson or Timelord. Kemba makes essentially the same amount of money as Hill and Horford combined. I’d be fine giving up a first for Barnes and If Sac wants more than that look at Thad Young. He’s an expiring contract and the Bulls are going nowhere. How expensive can he possibly be? Knicks just got D Rose for Dennis Smith JR who is playing in the G league and a second round pick.

Also, Hayward was never a good fit on this team. He never had chemistry with Brown and Tatum and always crumbled under high pressure situations. This wait around for guys to get right or young guys to develop is not working. You have two stars, now build around them with established players and try to win now.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2021, 11:35:27 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Move Kemba(plus picks) for George Hill and AL Horford.

Philly had to give up picks to get rid of Horford like 2 months ago.

So you want to give up the best player in the deal, take back a couple of guys who are like 50something years old, one of whom is on a god awful contract..... AND send Sam Presti some draft picks? How many? Like 2, maybe 4?

Horford was not a good fit in Philly playing alongside Embiid and Simmons. Believe it or not, fit does matter and Horford fit very well on the C’s. He does everything they need: passes, Rebounds, Shoots the 3 and he’s still playing above average D. You think Kemba is the best player in the deal??? Lol. He’s a complete shell right now and the C’s would have to attach a first round pick(and maybe a young player) just to unload him. OKC is in a complete rebuild and Horford and Hill are two veterans that the Celtics could really use.  They are both 34 years old. CP3 and Lebron are turning 37 this year and are playing at a high level. Many Athlete's are playing well, later into their careers.
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2021, 11:43:51 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Move Kemba(plus picks) for George Hill and AL Horford. Use the TPE (plus a pick) for Barnes or Thad Young. Problem solved.

Smart, Pritchard, Teague
Brown, Smart, Barnes/Thad Young
Tatum, Barnes/Thad Young, Semi, Smart
Theis, Timelord, G Williams
Horford, Thompson, Timelord

That’s a contender. Depth at every position, good shooters and defenders at every position. And it’s doable.
that's bad salary management and not good talent wise. 
- Horford is not the same player he was when he was here. 
- Where's Hill on your roster?  he'd be the player I start at PG.  he's not as good as Good Kemba but better than Smart as a starting PG. 
- What are you giving up to entice Sac to give up Barnes and torpedo the season they're having?  better chance of getting Hield (who plays no D)
- What are you giving up to get Thad?  Would love to get him but the question is what are you giving up?

I don't see the C's contending this year.  Loss of Hayward killed that and Kemba's weak play have made them a low-level playoff team.   Only serious option I think they have is getting players healthy to fully evaluate who's got a future and who's got to be removed this coming offseason.  I don't see a miracle coming with the TPE this season at the trade deadline.  maybe in the offseason someone good becomes disgruntled and Danny can get them for a reasonable price.   I'd really like to see Romeo get healthy so we can see what he can do.  other than that, fingers crossed GWill gets back to where he was last season and improves, Timelord learns how to play team D and box out for rebounds, Nesmith shows he can be relied on for limited minutes and be productive, Pritchard continues to show he's a solid player and improves, Green continues to improve his D and develop an outside shot and finally, Semi goes back to being as good as he was earlier this season when he was playing solid D and consistently providing some points off the bench.

If all these 'ifs' broke perfectly in Boston's favor for next year, C's would only reasonably need a bruiser 4/5 that could come in and provide post D and rebounding against the likes of Embiid, KAT and Jokic.  Almost anything less than that, C's will have some real holes to fill around Jayson and Jaylen.


I have no hope at this point for Edwards, Waters or Tacko.

Updated the depth chart. Smart or Hill starting seems like a wash one way or the other. Horford is having a good year. Easily as good as any he had with the C’s and he’s shooting 40+% from 3. He fit’s in with this team much better than Kemba and gives us a solid option to pair with Theis. Kemba does not fit in with this team and he’s shooting horribly. He’s hurting the team being on the court.

In terms of salary management any of the following are expendable: Teague, GWill, Greene, waters, Edwards, Tacko, either Thompson or Timelord. Kemba makes essentially the same amount of money as Hill and Horford combined. I’d be fine giving up a first for Barnes and If Sac wants more than that look at Thad Young. He’s an expiring contract and the Bulls are going nowhere. How expensive can he possibly be? Knicks just got D Rose for Dennis Smith JR who is playing in the G league and a second round pick.

Also, Hayward was never a good fit on this team. He never had chemistry with Brown and Tatum and always crumbled under high pressure situations. This wait around for guys to get right or young guys to develop is not working. You have two stars, now build around them with established players and try to win now.
have to disagree on Horford.  he's nowhere near what he was for us.  Barnes will cost more than a first rounder.  he's having a good year and is a prime reason Sac is having a good year.  They're .500 for the first time in years.  Trading Barnes requires them to punt on this year and that'll cost.

the 'expendable' list isn't enough to manage the cap.  except for TT, they're all low salary players.  you can't just cut the roster to the point of not having enough to satisfy the minimum roster requirements. 

Hayward's fit was fine when he was healthy.  if he was playing this season, he'd be that third scoring option and probably primary facilitator on offense that Kemba isn't being for us. 

Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2021, 11:46:11 AM »

Online Vermont Green

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Move Kemba(plus picks) for George Hill and AL Horford.

Philly had to give up picks to get rid of Horford like 2 months ago.

So you want to give up the best player in the deal, take back a couple of guys who are like 50something years old, one of whom is on a god awful contract..... AND send Sam Presti some draft picks? How many? Like 2, maybe 4?

That is true about Horford but what do you think we would need to do to move Kemba right now?  If you believe he is cooked, never again to be the same Kemba Walker, but on a bad contract, then he is no more moveable than Horford was.  If you believe he is just on a longer and bumpier than expected road back to all star level play (or near to that) then no, you don't trade him for Horford.

I think trading Kemba and say Teague to OKC for Horford and Hill is a very interesting idea.  As they are currently performing, Horford would provide more of what we need over what we are getting from Kemba.  Horford would be an upgrade to our current big rotation.  Hill is still a decent vet PG.  I think for OKC, there is more potential that Kemba gets back to something of more value than what Horford is/will be, but he may also never be more than what we are now seeing.

I think this is an interesting trade to speculate about.  It all comes down to what you think is the current ceiling for Walker and all you can do is guess about that.  If Walker is on the verge getting his game back, this is a bad trade but I don't think anyone can know that.  I am not sure about adding picks to this but this is an interesting basis for a deal.

Re: Time to look under the hood
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2021, 11:51:15 AM »

Offline CFAN38

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i think coaching has something to do with the effective-ness of the bench guys though too.

they never know if they will play/ when/ how much

hard to get in a rythm that way

This is true but to defend Stevens who on the bench aside from PP and Theis has really earned a consistent role? Grant, Semi, R Will, and Edwards have all had their moments but its hard for me to say who should play and who should sit. Its also tough that the depth at Center takes minutes away from R Williams and prevents Grant from having a consistent small ball 5 role.
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