2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?

[Somebody]

The goal is to win and you win by scoring more points than the other team

Exactly right.  That’s why using a guy who will get outscore every time out makes so little sense to me in this format.  You’re requiring the rest of your starters to make up a deficit from the jump.

As for comparing the offenses of Detroit and Memphis, you’re not trying to claim that Wallace was a large part of it, are you?  Chauncey, Rip, Sheed and Prince have a lot to do with that, no?

No what I'm claiming is that contrary to your assertions, Wallace wasn't a detriment to the offense of his team.  And I will absolutely go so far as to claim that Wallace's elite level offensive rebounding created possessions.  His defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks led to transition baskets.

And there is actually evidence of Wallace's impact since he moved around a bit.  Detroit went from the 4th rated offense and the 5th rated defense in Wallace's last year to the 6th rated offense and 7th rated defense, despite replacing Wallace with Chris Webber.  Chicago went from 23 and 7 to 21 and 1 by adding Wallace (and that was an aging less effective Wallace).  An even older Wallace took the Cavs from 20 and 11 to 4 and 3.  That is what Wallace does.  He improves not only the defense, but the offense of the teams he goes to, because a strong part of the offense is getting rebounds, creating transition opportunities, and generally just playing within the system and your role in it.

Wallace was hardly a massive negative on offence in his best years. His FT shooting and shot selection at times (the latter is why his FG% is so pedestrian despite his offensive role) are certainly poor, but his offensive rebounding, ability to generate a huge amount of interceptions as well as run the floor certainly makes it hard to argue that he'd be anything worse than a slight negative with capable offensive players around him. Does he muck up spacing? Yes. Does he make some weird decisions on offence at times? Yes. Is he a mediocre finisher? Yes. But generating second chance opportunities for quality offences with elite offensive rebounding, creating high value offensive possessions with an incredible ability to rack up blocks/steals/deflections, as well as having a bit of gravity near the rim (even if Wallace isn't an elite finisher, you'll still have to somewhat guard him when he's in the short corner) brings offensive value that can mitigate those shortcomings, especially on teams with on-ball stars.

[nickagneta]

I think great rebounding is essential in building a championship, along with great defense, especially down low

Giannis 13.6 RPG, 7.7 OREB%, 34.8 DREB%, 22.1 REB%

Jordan 13.8 RPG, 11.4% OREB%, 32.7% DREB%, 22.2% REB%

So yup. Phoenix has elite rebounding and defense in their frontcourt.

BTW that 34.8% DEF% from Giannis should scare people as he will go straight into an end to end sprint in transition

Phoenix will run, run and then run some more and if we can't score in transition, we will be using a motion offense with all sorts of screens, double screens and back cuts looking to create mismatches that can be taken advantage of by Giannis, Clyde and Booker with drives or hitting the cutter or kicking it for the open three. Think Brad Stevens offense but instead will have everyone in motion and screening instead of having two guys standing in corners doing nothing.

[Somebody]

I can see some of this center discussion is becoming heated. How about instead everyone torch DeAndre Jordan and I'll be good and silent about it.

No need, Nick - you have a fine team and it fits.

It's just that posters here lose me with comments like -

"Ben Wallace is definitely better than Marc Gasol."

Or –

“Marc Gasol isn’t a better player than Ben Wallace. Better offense, sure but not a more impactful player to the scoreboard or winning games.”

These comments - coming from otherwise intelligent posters - are way too vague and opinionated and seem (to ME) to serve a purpose of not recognizing what the drafter was trying to do.

I constructed my team for the MODERN NBA - based off of draft position and fit.

I intentionally stayed away from players GREAT at certain things but were at the same time LIMITED in other areas.

Owners of teams here have done well in drafting COMPLIMENTARY players around certain players to enhance their abilities. That's their right as an owner.

For ME - I'd suppose I took the Brad Stevens route and wanted numerous players skilled at multiple things. That was MY choice.

Games like this become BORING when you're trying to draft players that OTHERS think fit for your team or assume the play style of certain players.

Is Marc Gasol worse than Wallace as a player though? I certainly don't think so. Gasol isn't that far off from Wallace as a defender (certainly a rung or two down, but this is like a top 10-15 defensive peak versus a top 20-30ish one) - he captained some strong Grizzly defences with a sieve as his frontcourt mate in the early 2010s and peaked with an elite one in 2013. While tracking/plus-minus data doesn't love his offence, there's a very good argument that they failed to capture how inept the Grizzlies were in utilising his offensive talents - they consistently failed to find any on-ball talent who can shoot, create, pass and move off-ball that can complement him and Mike Conley and settled for awkward fits (eg. low post volume scorers who're highly inefficient in both time of possession and scoring efficiency, spot up shooters who're dependent on a massive heliocentric star to create open looks for them, defensive specialists with no offensive game, etc).

With how historical data, archives and the eye test have all heralded the value of a big man who can pass, shoot and create in the high post or the perimeter, it's hard to say that Gasol wasn't a positive on offence during his prime and a significant one on teams flush with on-ball talent (which GreenFaith has in spades with Nash as his PG) while being a defensive anchor who is only bested by some of the best defenders of all time.

[Somebody]

... the fact that taking the scoring version of Gasol doesn't actually get you a top level scorer.  He isn't a #1 option at all, and frankly that is perhaps the biggest criticism I have your team i.e. you have no one to go to with the game on the line.  Nash is a facilitator. Gasol is a facilitator.  Roundfield and Thunder Dan aren't go to scorers.  Lewis is the closest thing you have and sadly we never really go to see if he could actually be that kind of player (and he never even averaged 21 a game).  And you didn't correct that on your bench as World B. Free is the only top level scorer you have.  That just isn't going to cut it.

Aside from the Ben Wallace vs Marc Gasol = all defense no offense vs lesser D but two way center debate ... this was an interesting side discussion.

Two thoughts

(1) My thinking is that a team needs a top level offensive player but not necessarily a top level scorer. That is how I think of Steve Nash. I believe he is good enough offensively to be the best offensive player on a top quality team because of his elite playmaking and above average scoring. He creates so many opportunities for others around him and makes them all better scorers. He will get his team a good scoring opportunity consistently throughout the game and during the close stretch of games. Much like a go-to scorer just in a different way. 

(2) Steve Nash has said in interviews if he played in today's league he would play more like Steph Curry and shoot way more especially from 3. Nash would be more of a scorer in today's league and less of a facilitator. He says that this is more emphasized in today's league whereas playmaking was more the PG's role when he came into the NBA. According to him, Nash would be bombing away and a prolific scorer in today's league.

This was my line of thinking when I drafted him in the previous Historical Draft and when ranking him in this draft. That he would offer a lot more scoring than during his playing days and that combined with his passing ability makes Nash arguably the best offensive player in this draft.

I also believe this is similarly true of Mark Price. A pass-first PG in his day but a major scoring threat who would be similarly unleashed in today's game. Both due to the (a) hand checking rule changes (b) priority of PG scoring & outside shooting in today's NBA.

Nash wasn't too far off from being top flight in scoring though. His isolation PPP was consistently near the top of the league during his prime and he constantly came up big in the playoffs when the Suns needed on-ball scoring to crack elite defences.

[Jvalin]

Here's the 9-man playoff rotation of the Milwaukee Bucks.

Ball handlers: DJ (30) - Mitchell (18)
Wings: Middleton (24) - Finley (24)
Wings: Kawhi (36) - Middleton (12)
Swings: Siakam (24) - Kukoc (24)
Bigs: Jokic (36) - Vucevic (12)

(or something along these lines depending on matchups)

I already made a post about my starters. These are my backup players:



Donovan Mitchell
A dynamic ball handler who can change the pace of the game and explode on the open court. I can surround him with 4 shooters and let him do his job. He gives me a different option compared to DJ who is a defensive minded ball handler.

The Jazz were using Mitchell as a score-first PG in the bubble. He had an epic series against the Nuggets averaging 36.3 points, 5 rebounds and 4.9 assists per game on 52.9% from the floor and 51.6% from 3pt range! Unfortunately for the Jazz, they lost in 7 games to the Nuggets.

Again, I plan to embrace the modern format of 4 positions: Ball handlers, Wings, Swings and Bigs. Mitchell played 47% of his minutes at PG last season and 53% at SG. I'll be using him as a score-first ball handler.

Mike Finley

• One of the best wing shooters in the draft. Averaged 40.1% from 3pt range on 3 attempts per game in 1999/00.
• Could put the ball on the floor and create his own shot.
• Could create shots for his teammates. Excellent passing skills + court vision at the wing position. Had the lowest TOV% in the NBA in 2004, 2005 and 2007. Recorded 4 triple doubles in 1999/00.
• Great athlete in his prime years. Explosive + big leaper. Good dunker as well.
• Could defend multiple positions. Played all 3 wing positions throughout his career.

A terrific all around player! He would have had an even better career in today's game thanks to his shooting ability.

Toni Kukoc
Again, a great all around player.

• he could shoot the 3 (40.3% on 2.7 attempts per game in 1995/96)
• he could put the ball on the floor and create his own shot
• he could create shots for his teammates (3.5 assists, 1.4 t/o in 1995/96)
• he could defend multiple positions

He could do it all! Mind you, he's 6'10''!

Nikola Vucevic
Top 3 shooting Center in the draft alongside Jokic and Arvydas Sabonis.

• He can stretch the floor. Shot 36.3% from 3 on 2.9 attempts per game in 2018/19.
• He's a big presence in the paint. Allowed 0.83 PPP in post ups in 2018/19.
• Excellent passer at the C position. Averaged 3.8 assists and 2 t/o in 2018/19.
• Great rebounder. Averaged 12 rebs per game in 2018/19.

He's comfortably a starting-caliber Center in my book. Never expected him to be available in the 8th round!

End of the bench (not part of the rotation, but may get limited minutes depending on matchups)



Derek Harper
Hard-nosed, 6'4'' ball handler. Made the All-Defensive 2nd team twice in his career. Was ahead of his time as a 3pt shooter. Averaged 37.1% form 3 on 2.9 attempts per game in 1989/90. Very good passer as well. Ranks 25th all time in assists with 6,577. Great backup option in case I wanna slow down the tempo of the game.

Cedric Maxwell
Maxwell is the perfect low usage - high efficiency type of player, which is exactly what a team needs when fielding multiple All-Stars in the same lineup.

1978/79
USG%: 18.4
eFG%: 58.4 (led the league)
Averaged 19 points on 10.1 FG attempts per game!

1979/80
USG%: 17.7
eFG%: 60.9 (led the league)
Averaged 16.9 points on 9.4 FG attempts per game!

He was also a terrific defender. As soon as Larry Legend became the undisputed go-to scorer of the Celtics, Maxwell reinvented himself as a defensive specialist. His new role was to defend the opposing team's best wing player.

[Darth_Yoda]

I think great rebounding is essential in building a championship, along with great defense, especially down low

Giannis 13.6 RPG, 7.7 OREB%, 34.8 DREB%, 22.1 REB%

Jordan 13.8 RPG, 11.4% OREB%, 32.7% DREB%, 22.2% REB%

So yup. Phoenix has elite rebounding and defense in their frontcourt.

BTW that 34.8% DEF% from Giannis should scare people as he will go straight into an end to end sprint in transition

Phoenix will run, run and then run some more and if we can't score in transition, we will be using a motion offense with all sorts of screens, double screens and back cuts looking to create mismatches that can be taken advantage of by Giannis, Clyde and Booker with drives or hitting the cutter or kicking it for the open three. Think Brad Stevens offense but instead will have everyone in motion and screening instead of having two guys standing in corners doing nothing.

I agree on rebounding, I have alot of that too. Both offensive and defensive.

Capela is one of the better offensive rebounders in the draft, having him and his 14.4% orebound% is awesome for me as I have Gervin (who plays like Harden) and Reggie and Hawkins

[Darth_Yoda]

Capela: 12.7 rpg
Gasols Best Season : 9.3rpg

Capela: 4.4 offensive rebounds
Gasols Best Season : 3

Capela: .648 fg%,
Gasols best season: .581

Capela: 1.4 assists
Gasols best season: 4.6

Capela: 0.8 steals
Gasols best season: 1

Capela: 1.7 blocks
Gasols best season 1.9 blocks

Capela: Defensive Wins Share: 3.0
Gasols Best Season: 5.4

Capela Offensive Win Share 7.8
Gasols best season: 6.1

Capela Win Share: 10.8
Gasols Best Season: 11.5

Capela Win Share per 48: 0.230
Gasols best season: 1.97


Ignoring any specific year and instead only taking the best performance for Marc in any single category, the only advantage he has on Capela is his passing, and defense (Playing in Houston really hurts Clints overal defensive impact).
But I will not be requiring Capela to pass at all. That responsibility will fall to others.

[Darth_Yoda]

Between blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds he ended possessions of the opposing team over 13 times a game.

I think this overstates things a bit.  Blocks don’t end possessions, and Wallace grabbing a rebound doesn’t mean that if he hadn’t the other team would have secured the ball.

You also have to look at context.  Gasol played next to Zach Randolph, an excellent rebounder.  That team played at a very slow, bottom-5 pace.

When you look at Memphis’ combined rebounding versus Detroit’s, Detroit only accounted for 1.5 more rebounds per 100 possessions. That’s a fairly minor amount.

Even when Randolph was moved to the bench and then shipped of to Sacramento, and Gasol spent most of his time next to JaMychal Green, Green outrebounded him.

Wallace's career-low rebound per possession rate is better than Gasol's career high. There's no way of cutting it any other way than Wallace was an immensely superior rebounder compared to Gasol.

In a game like this, you'd probably want someone like Gasol as he is the far superior passer and can hit shots from outside. But I still think Wallace is better, if that makes sense.

Wallace is a superior overall multiposition defender and a superior rebounder.

And based on team construction I can very well see Wallace fitting far better than Gasol.

For example, Wallace was perfect on those piston teams and I dont think they win a title with Gasol in place of Wallace.

[Darth_Yoda]

The goal is to win and you win by scoring more points than the other team

Exactly right.  That’s why using a guy who will get outscore every time out makes so little sense to me in this format.  You’re requiring the rest of your starters to make up a deficit from the jump.

As for comparing the offenses of Detroit and Memphis, you’re not trying to claim that Wallace was a large part of it, are you?  Chauncey, Rip, Sheed and Prince have a lot to do with that, no?

He does have the second leading scorer in NBA history and a player who averaged 34 points per game on his team though. He doesnt need the scoring output from Center as he is more than making up for it with the highest scoring out of his PG and out of his PF than any other teams starters.

[Roy H.]

I agree that rebounding is important, particularly in terms of keeping teams off of the offensive boards.  I tend to view rebounding as a tandem, rather than individual, thing.

[nickagneta]

I had posted this previously but with voting happening now I though I would refresh it to remind everyone just how dominant the Suns are.😁😁😁

Hope this helps everyone in evaluating my team. Sorry if I don't have individual player profiles, as I feel everyone knows my players and how good they are. I thought telling you how they would be used would be more important.


PHOENIX  SUNS
Tony Parker/Norm Van Lier/Steve Kerr

Clyde Drexler/Devin Booker/J.J. Redick

Danny Granger/Hedo Turkoglu/Tayshaun Prince

Giannis Antetokounmpo/Anthony Mason/Bob Love

DeAndre Jordan/Carlos Boozer/Troy Murphy

Player. Year Used.  PTS/AST/REB   FG%/3PT%/FT%/TS%  ACCOLADES

STARTERS
Tony Parker.  2006-07.  18.6/5.5/3.2.  52/39.5/78.3/57.2.  All-Star.  Finals MVP.

Clyde Drexler.  1991-02.  25/6.7/6.6.  47/33.7/79.4/56.   All-Star.  All-NBA 1st Team. 2nd in MVP balloting.

Danny Granger.  2008-09.   25.8/2.7/5.1.   44.7/40.4/87.8/58.4.   All-Star.  MIP

Giannis Antetokounmpo.   2019-20.  29.5/5.6/13.6.   55.3/30.4/63.3/61.3.   All-Star.   All-NBA 1st Team.   All-Defense 1st Team.   MVP.   DPOY.

DeAndre Jordan.   2015-16.   12.7/1.2/13.8.   70.3/0/43/62.8.   All-NBA 1st Team.   All-Defense 1st Team

ROTATION BENCH
Devin Booker.   2019-20.   26.6/6.5/4.2.   48.9/35.4/91.8/61.8.  All-Star

Hedo Turkoglu.   2007-08.   19.5/5/5.7.    45.6/40/82.9/57.8.   MIP

Anthony Mason.   1996-97.   16.2/5.7/11.4.   52.5/33.3/74.5/58.5.  All-NBA 3rd Team.   All-Defense 2nd Team

J.J. Redick.   2015-16.   16.3/1.4/1.9.   48/47.5/88.8/63.2

Carlos Boozer.   2007-08.   21.1/2.9/10.4.   54.7/0/73.8/58.1.   All-Star.  All-NBA 3rd Team

Norm Van Lier.   1973-74.   14.3/6.9/4.7.   40.6/--/77.8/47.   All-Star.   All-NBA 2nd Team.   All-Defense 1st Team

DEEP BENCH
Tayshaun Prince.   2006-07.  14.3/2.8/5.7.   46/38.6/76.8/53.4.   All-Defense 2nd Team 

Bob Love.   1971-72.   25.2/2.3/8.5.   44.2/--/78.4/49.   All-Star.   All-NBA 2nd Team.   All-Defense 2nd Team

Steve Kerr.   1995-96.   8.4/2.3/1.3.   50.6/51.5/92.9/66.3

Troy Murphy.   2008-09.   14.3/2.4/11.8.   47.5/45/82.6/61.4

MOST USED 5 MAN SETS

Parker/Drexler/Granger/Giannis/Jordan
Redick/Booker/Drexler/Turkoglu/Giannis: The Death Lineup
Parker/Drexler/Granger/Mason/Boozer
Reddick/Booker/Turkoglu/Giannis/Boozer
Booker/Drexler/Granger/Giannis/Jordan
Van Lier/Booker/Drexler/Giannis/ Boozer

Other specialty lineups:

Last play need a three to tie:
Kerr/Redick/Granger/Giannis/ Murphy

Last play need a stop:
Van Lier/Drexler/Prince/Giannis/Jordan

Expected top scorers in order with PPG from season selected:
Giannis 29.5PPG
Drexler 25 PPG
Booker 26.6 PPG
Granger 25.8 PPG
Parker 18.6 PPG
Redick 16.3 PPG
Turkoglu 19.5 PPG
Boozer 21.1 PPG
Jordan 12.7 PPG
Mason 16.2 PPG

Expected top rebounders in order with RPG in selected year:
Giannis 13.6 RPG
Jordan 13.8 RPG
Boozer 10.4 RPG
Drexler 6.6 RPG
Granger 5.1 RPG
Mason 11.4 PPG
Booker 4.2 RPG
Turkoglu 5.7 RPG

Expected top assist players with APG in season selected:
* NOTE* None of these guys will be racking up 9+ APG. But I do feel 4-5 of them will have 5+ APG.
Giannis 5.5APG
Drexler 6.7 APG
Parker 5.5 APG
Booker 6.5 APG
Turkoglu 5.7 APG

Top 3 point shooters with percentage from season selected:
Redick 47.5%
Kerr 51.5%
Granger 40.4%
Turkoglu 40%
Parker 39.5%
Murphy 45%
Prince 38.6%

The Suns will be a fast paced team looking to run, run run and score in transition. If Giannis, Drexler, Booker or Parker get the defensive rebound they will be immediately pushing the ball up. If anyone else gets that defensive rebound they will look for the outlet pass to start the break.

Ultimate goal is to score in transition or go to the mismatch that the defense provides because they are just a bit late getting back on defense.

In the half court the offense will be a modified Brad Stevens motion offense, without two guys standing in the corner doing nothing. Those guys will be setting screens or double screens, be running around the screens to get an open shot or backcutting for easy open runs at the basket. Parker, Giannis, Drexler and Booker will be the primary playmakers and ball handlers. Expect a bunch of PnR and PnP depending on the defense.

[Who]

PHOENIX  SUNS
Tony Parker/Norm Van Lier/Steve Kerr
Clyde Drexler/Devin Booker/J.J. Redick
Danny Granger/Hedo Turkoglu/Tayshaun Prince
Giannis Antetokounmpo/Anthony Mason/Bob Love
DeAndre Jordan/Carlos Boozer/Troy Murphy

I was surprised you did not select another center. I understand wanting to use Giannis at center and fully agree that is an excellent option but why did you not select a 3rd string center?

Someone that can give you a few minutes at center in a game where DeAndre isn't playing well or is in foul trouble. Or if you just want to say big because it is working well (your defensive size is dominating). A couple quick fouls to DeAndre and you have little alternative.

I thought a 3rd string center who can defend would have added more to your bench than 4 PFs.

[nickagneta]

PHOENIX  SUNS
Tony Parker/Norm Van Lier/Steve Kerr
Clyde Drexler/Devin Booker/J.J. Redick
Danny Granger/Hedo Turkoglu/Tayshaun Prince
Giannis Antetokounmpo/Anthony Mason/Bob Love
DeAndre Jordan/Carlos Boozer/Troy Murphy

I was surprised you did not select another center. I understand wanting to use Giannis at center and fully agree that is an excellent option but why did you not select a 3rd string center?

Someone that can give you a few minutes at center in a game where DeAndre isn't playing well or is in foul trouble. Or if you just want to say big because it is working well (your defensive size is dominating). A couple quick fouls to DeAndre and you have little alternative.

I thought a 3rd string center who can defend would have added more to your bench than 4 PFs.

Boozer played center throughout his career. At Utah he played the 5 alongside Millsap a ton but was always listed as a 4. In Chicago he played a bunch of center when Noah was out, which was a lot, and with their 2nd unit. He also played center in LA too.

While Boozer was listed as a 4, he played a bunch of center in his career.

[Roy H.]

Capela: 12.7 rpg
Gasols Best Season : 9.3rpg

Capela: 4.4 offensive rebounds
Gasols Best Season : 3

Capela: .648 fg%,
Gasols best season: .581

Capela: 1.4 assists
Gasols best season: 4.6

Capela: 0.8 steals
Gasols best season: 1

Capela: 1.7 blocks
Gasols best season 1.9 blocks

Capela: Defensive Wins Share: 3.0
Gasols Best Season: 5.4

Capela Offensive Win Share 7.8
Gasols best season: 6.1

Capela Win Share: 10.8
Gasols Best Season: 11.5

Capela Win Share per 48: 0.230
Gasols best season: 1.97


Ignoring any specific year and instead only taking the best performance for Marc in any single category, the only advantage he has on Capela is his passing, and defense (Playing in Houston really hurts Clints overal defensive impact).
But I will not be requiring Capela to pass at all. That responsibility will fall to others.

And scoring. And shooting.  And setting screens.  And moving without the ball.

This league has reached absurdity if somebody is arguing that Prime Capela and Prime Gasol are equals.

[gouki88]

Capela: 12.7 rpg
Gasols Best Season : 9.3rpg

Capela: 4.4 offensive rebounds
Gasols Best Season : 3

Capela: .648 fg%,
Gasols best season: .581

Capela: 1.4 assists
Gasols best season: 4.6

Capela: 0.8 steals
Gasols best season: 1

Capela: 1.7 blocks
Gasols best season 1.9 blocks

Capela: Defensive Wins Share: 3.0
Gasols Best Season: 5.4

Capela Offensive Win Share 7.8
Gasols best season: 6.1

Capela Win Share: 10.8
Gasols Best Season: 11.5

Capela Win Share per 48: 0.230
Gasols best season: 1.97


Ignoring any specific year and instead only taking the best performance for Marc in any single category, the only advantage he has on Capela is his passing, and defense (Playing in Houston really hurts Clints overal defensive impact).
But I will not be requiring Capela to pass at all. That responsibility will fall to others.

And scoring. And shooting.  And setting screens.  And moving without the ball.

This league has reached absurdity if somebody is arguing that Prime Capela and Prime Gasol are equals.

So the only things Gasol was better than Capela at are offence and defence? Got it