2021 Historical Draft: How Does My Team Look?

[Darth_Yoda]

Mark Gasol, in any single year, was not elite at anything.

Wallace was elite at defemse and rebounding for multiple seasons
 

Marcs best offensive seasons were his weakest defensive. His best defensive were his weakest offensive.

What metrics are you cheery picking for this?

None needed.

[Darth_Yoda]

Mark Gasol, in any single year, was not elite at anything.

Wallace was elite at defemse and rebounding for multiple seasons
 

Marcs best offensive seasons were his weakest defensive. His best defensive were his weakest offensive.

So what was Capela elite at?

Defensive much?

I never claimed he was, but i would consider him elite at rim running and rebounding.

[GreenFaith1819]

Mark Gasol, in any single year, was not elite at anything.

Wallace was elite at defemse and rebounding for multiple seasons
 

Marcs best offensive seasons were his weakest defensive. His best defensive were his weakest offensive.

So what was Capela elite at?

Defensive much?

I never claimed he was, but i would consider him elite at rim running and rebounding.

That's the thing, though.

You consider Capela elite at those things but by what metrics?

Unfortunately for him he's never won any awards for it even though I personally believe he's among the BEST at what you just stated.

But the NBA and the "awarders" haven't determined Clint to be that good and neither did HOU. It's certainly not Clint's fault, though.

You chose Clint for your team because of his fit. That's your choice.

While I constructed "MY" team for "TODAY'S" NBA I found Marc fit the bill for me.

In trying to DEFEND him some here don't believe that and are trying to go as far as making that Gospel.

They are wrong.

TP for your troubles, though - if I came across the wrong way I apologize for it.

[nickagneta]

I can see some of this center discussion is becoming heated. How about instead everyone torch DeAndre Jordan and I'll be good and silent about it.

[Who]

Question: When are the votes meant to be in by?

I haven't ranked any of the teams yet. Still looking them over and trying to get a feel for them.

[GreenFaith1819]

I can see some of this center discussion is becoming heated. How about instead everyone torch DeAndre Jordan and I'll be good and silent about it.

No need, Nick - you have a fine team and it fits.

It's just that posters here lose me with comments like -

"Ben Wallace is definitely better than Marc Gasol."

Or –

“Marc Gasol isn’t a better player than Ben Wallace. Better offense, sure but not a more impactful player to the scoreboard or winning games.”

These comments - coming from otherwise intelligent posters - are way too vague and opinionated and seem (to ME) to serve a purpose of not recognizing what the drafter was trying to do.

I constructed my team for the MODERN NBA - based off of draft position and fit.

I intentionally stayed away from players GREAT at certain things but were at the same time LIMITED in other areas.

Owners of teams here have done well in drafting COMPLIMENTARY players around certain players to enhance their abilities. That's their right as an owner.

For ME - I'd suppose I took the Brad Stevens route and wanted numerous players skilled at multiple things. That was MY choice.

Games like this become BORING when you're trying to draft players that OTHERS think fit for your team or assume the play style of certain players.

[Moranis]

Ben Wallace is definitely better than Marc Gasol.

I disagree.  Gasol provides 85% of the defense and much better offense.  The only real deficit is in rebounding.

Even if I agreed he provided 85% of the defense, I don't, to act like a tremendous rebounding edge doesn't actually affect the outcome of games is also strange.  Wallace created 4 extra offensive possessions for his team with those 4 offensive rebounds.  Between blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds he ended possessions of the opposing team over 13 times a game.  That is 17 possessions swung by Wallace.  Gasol in 15 (what you call his best season) grabbed just 1.4 offensive rebounds and 8.9 combined blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds.  That is an absolute massive difference between possession creation or ending, and that isn't the season that was selected.  Once Gasol started bombing 3's, he basically stopped getting offensive rebounds in 17 he had 0.8, he had only 5.5 defensive rebounds, 0.9 steals and 1.3 blocks.  That is why you can't give Gasol credit as a shooter and also try to give him his rebounding stats.  Because once he started shooting he stopped rebounding, because he was no longer near the basket and wasn't athletic enough to close that distance. 

And to explain why I don't think the gap is only 15% defensively is because Wallace was significantly quicker and despite being smaller probably stronger than Gasol.  He could guard guys like Dirk while also being able to guard guys like Shaq.  Rodman is basically the only other player (in this draft) with that sort of defensive big man versatility and as much as Rodman annoyed guys like Shaq, he was overpowered by him, which is something Wallace never was.  Wallace has tremendous defensive instincts, very quick hands, and unbelievable timing.  Him and Rodman are by far the best defensive players available in this league.  And it isn't close between them and anyone else (including the guards).  The tenacity, skill, and instincts those two had was unmatched by anyone else.  It is also why they are the two best rebounders in this as well.  The skills that made them uber elite defenders, made them uber elite rebounders. 

[gouki88]

Question: When are the votes meant to be in by?

I haven't ranked any of the teams yet. Still looking them over and trying to get a feel for them.

Ideally by Saturday night EST, but if it’s taking everyone a while I’m
happy to extend the deadline to ensure everyone votes.

[nickagneta]

I can see some of this center discussion is becoming heated. How about instead everyone torch DeAndre Jordan and I'll be good and silent about it.

No need, Nick - you have a fine team and it fits.

It's just that posters here lose me with comments like -

"Ben Wallace is definitely better than Marc Gasol."

Or –

“Marc Gasol isn’t a better player than Ben Wallace. Better offense, sure but not a more impactful player to the scoreboard or winning games.”

These comments - coming from otherwise intelligent posters - are way too vague and opinionated and seem (to ME) to serve a purpose of not recognizing what the drafter was trying to do.

I constructed my team for the MODERN NBA - based off of draft position and fit.

I intentionally stayed away from players GREAT at certain things but were at the same time LIMITED in other areas.

Owners of teams here have done well in drafting COMPLIMENTARY players around certain players to enhance their abilities. That's their right as an owner.

For ME - I'd suppose I took the Brad Stevens route and wanted numerous players skilled at multiple things. That was MY choice.

Games like this become BORING when you're trying to draft players that OTHERS think fit for your team or assume the play style of certain players.

TP4U GF!

Yeah, I don't get the take that Wallace was a better basketball player than Gasol but I stayed out of it because it wasn't my player. I've always felt that it the game is more fun if I don't get into these discussions.

And I think it helps in voting, IMHO.  At least, I have come to that conclusion more than once after handling the voting in this game like every time ever before this year.

[Roy H.]

Between blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds he ended possessions of the opposing team over 13 times a game.

I think this overstates things a bit.  Blocks don’t end possessions, and Wallace grabbing a rebound doesn’t mean that if he hadn’t the other team would have secured the ball.

You also have to look at context.  Gasol played next to Zach Randolph, an excellent rebounder.  That team played at a very slow, bottom-5 pace.

When you look at Memphis’ combined rebounding versus Detroit’s, Detroit only accounted for 1.5 more rebounds per 100 possessions. That’s a fairly minor amount.

[gouki88]

Between blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds he ended possessions of the opposing team over 13 times a game.

I think this overstates things a bit.  Blocks don’t end possessions, and Wallace grabbing a rebound doesn’t mean that if he hadn’t the other team would have secured the ball.

You also have to look at context.  Gasol played next to Zach Randolph, an excellent rebounder.  That team played at a very slow, bottom-5 pace.

When you look at Memphis’ combined rebounding versus Detroit’s, Detroit only accounted for 1.5 more rebounds per 100 possessions. That’s a fairly minor amount.

Even when Randolph was moved to the bench and then shipped of to Sacramento, and Gasol spent most of his time next to JaMychal Green, Green outrebounded him.

Wallace's career-low rebound per possession rate is better than Gasol's career high. There's no way of cutting it any other way than Wallace was an immensely superior rebounder compared to Gasol.

In a game like this, you'd probably want someone like Gasol as he is the far superior passer and can hit shots from outside. But I still think Wallace is better, if that makes sense.

[Moranis]

Between blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds he ended possessions of the opposing team over 13 times a game.

I think this overstates things a bit.  Blocks don’t end possessions, and Wallace grabbing a rebound doesn’t mean that if he hadn’t the other team would have secured the ball.

You also have to look at context.  Gasol played next to Zach Randolph, an excellent rebounder.  That team played at a very slow, bottom-5 pace.

When you look at Memphis’ combined rebounding versus Detroit’s, Detroit only accounted for 1.5 more rebounds per 100 possessions. That’s a fairly minor amount.

So now Gasol gets credit for Randolph's rebounding.  Interesting.  Rasheed Wallace and Memet Okur weren't exactly slouch rebounders either. 

Also, Detroit played even slower than Memphis.  Memphis wasn't as good a defensive or offensive team as the Pistons either.  In fact, Detroit actually had a top 5 offense during Wallace's prime (in addition to a top 5 defense).  Memphis never topped out higher than 13th offensively during Gasol's entire time there.  The year selected for this Memphis was the 7th ranked defense but only 19th ranked offense (further solidifying why that year was not the correct year to take).  In 15, the year you seem to like Memphis was the 13th offense and the 3rd ranked defense.  I'd have gone with 13 when Memphis had the 2nd ranked defense and the 19th ranked offense.  In 04, when Detroit won the title and the year I choose for Wallace, Detroit had the 2nd ranked defense and the 18th ranked offense.  Of the players that were there the whole year, Wallace had the best on/off differential on the Pistons, so he was the most important player on the best team in the world (in the playoffs Wallace's on/off differential was +27.7 which is absolutely insane). 

Gasol just doesn't impact winning like Wallace does.  That is why I believe Wallace is the better player.  The goal is to win, and Wallace does that better than Gasol.  His teams are better because Wallace is better.  And in this sort of situation when I have 3 guys that were the #1 scoring option on their team in the starting lineup, having another scorer doesn't make sense.  Having an inferior player because they can pass better or shoot from longer, doesn't make sense either.  The goal is to win and you win by scoring more points than the other team, which is accomplished not only by scoring but also by stopping the other team from scoring and in that there is no one better than Wallace. 

[Roy H.]

The goal is to win and you win by scoring more points than the other team

Exactly right.  That’s why using a guy who will get outscore every time out makes so little sense to me in this format.  You’re requiring the rest of your starters to make up a deficit from the jump.

As for comparing the offenses of Detroit and Memphis, you’re not trying to claim that Wallace was a large part of it, are you?  Chauncey, Rip, Sheed and Prince have a lot to do with that, no?

[Moranis]

In a game like this, you'd probably want someone like Gasol as he is the far superior passer and can hit shots from outside. But I still think Wallace is better, if that makes sense.

See I disagree with this.  As I said in my last post, the goal is to create a team most capable of winning, and in that I'd rather have the better player, especially one that is basically unmatched both defensively and on the glass (it is basically just him and Rodman in those categories).  You can't just have a bunch of well rounded players that aren't super elite at anything.  You need the guys that can take over a game with a unique skill set.  Wallace was such a dominant defensive force, he can win you a game with a stop or a rebound.  I just don't think Gasol is that type of player. 

And as I said in my write-up the Jazz (during the Malone/Stockton era) and basically every champion in league history have a center that doesn't stretch the floor and of the recent championship centers really none of them could pass either.  Gasol really is the only exception and everyone knows they don't win the title if Durant (and Thompson) don't get hurt.  This idea that you need a stretch center to win is manufactured on blogs all the time.  It just doesn't match reality and there is no reason to expect a league like this to alter reality.  There are two top 10 centers all time in this, Moses and Mikan.  They don't stretch the floor.  Heck Moses may in fact be a worse passer than Wallace (both averaged 1.3 apg in their careers).  Gilmore doesn't stretch the floor.  Deandre Jordan.  Rudy Gobert.  Clint Capela.  That is more than half the league.  Sure Jokic, Gasol, Sabonis, and Divac were plus passers (and Jokic is elite for the position) and the first 3 can stretch out to 3 (though if you get that Gasol, you get a much worse defender), but this notion that Wallace is somehow the exception and not the rule seems very strange to me.  He is the rule both in this and in what it takes to actually play championship winning basketball.  Only 3 of those centers were even top 2 players on a title team (and I have 2 of them) and none of those 3 are the passers and shooters.  You win with a traditional old time center because contrary to modern popular belief that is actually championship winning basketball.  You need the guy to get the tough rebound or come up with the defensive stop at the rim.  You need the guy that is going to bang in the paint.  You don't need the Brook Lopez's of the world hanging around the 3 point line clanking 3's when your team needs a bucket or a rebound. 

[Moranis]

The goal is to win and you win by scoring more points than the other team

Exactly right.  That’s why using a guy who will get outscore every time out makes so little sense to me in this format.  You’re requiring the rest of your starters to make up a deficit from the jump.

As for comparing the offenses of Detroit and Memphis, you’re not trying to claim that Wallace was a large part of it, are you?  Chauncey, Rip, Sheed and Prince have a lot to do with that, no?

No what I'm claiming is that contrary to your assertions, Wallace wasn't a detriment to the offense of his team.  And I will absolutely go so far as to claim that Wallace's elite level offensive rebounding created possessions.  His defensive rebounds, steals, and blocks led to transition baskets.

And there is actually evidence of Wallace's impact since he moved around a bit.  Detroit went from the 4th rated offense and the 5th rated defense in Wallace's last year to the 6th rated offense and 7th rated defense, despite replacing Wallace with Chris Webber.  Chicago went from 23 and 7 to 21 and 1 by adding Wallace (and that was an aging less effective Wallace).  An even older Wallace took the Cavs from 20 and 11 to 4 and 3.  That is what Wallace does.  He improves not only the defense, but the offense of the teams he goes to, because a strong part of the offense is getting rebounds, creating transition opportunities, and generally just playing within the system and your role in it.