Woj: Hayward to Charlotte (4 years, $120 million)

[Darth_Yoda]

There were many instances where Hayward would defer or pass up shots. He was guns shy and timid.

He lacked confidence from the injury so him blaming his usage on anything other than that is ridiculous. We all screamed for him to be more aggressive. That’s all on him.

No, he had teammates that were 'volume shooters'.  And that's the problem with this team - at least from his perspective.  Tatum and Smart shoot too much.  And when they're cold, it hurts the team because neither one stops shooting. You pass to either one on the perimeter and it often never comes back. Then Kemba and Jaylen feel like they're not getting enough shots and they feel like they have to 'get theirs'. 

If I were Hayward, I'd want out of here.

Again, Hayward shot more then Smart did. That is just an incorrect narrative,.

Gordon this past season shot only 2 shots less per game than his allstar season in Utah.

[Greengang5]

There were many instances where Hayward would defer or pass up shots. He was guns shy and timid.

He lacked confidence from the injury so him blaming his usage on anything other than that is ridiculous. We all screamed for him to be more aggressive. That’s all on him.

No, he had teammates that were 'volume shooters'.  And that's the problem with this team - at least from his perspective.  Tatum and Smart shoot too much.  And when they're cold, it hurts the team because neither one stops shooting. You pass to either one on the perimeter and it often never comes back. Then Kemba and Jaylen feel like they're not getting enough shots and they feel like they have to 'get theirs'. 

If I were Hayward, I'd want out of here.

Again, Hayward shot more then Smart did. That is just an incorrect narrative,.

Gordon this past season shot only 2 shots less per game than his allstar season in Utah.

Pace of play in Utah was snail like

[Roy H.]

There were many instances where Hayward would defer or pass up shots. He was guns shy and timid.

He lacked confidence from the injury so him blaming his usage on anything other than that is ridiculous. We all screamed for him to be more aggressive. That’s all on him.

No, he had teammates that were 'volume shooters'.  And that's the problem with this team - at least from his perspective.  Tatum and Smart shoot too much.  And when they're cold, it hurts the team because neither one stops shooting. You pass to either one on the perimeter and it often never comes back. Then Kemba and Jaylen feel like they're not getting enough shots and they feel like they have to 'get theirs'. 

If I were Hayward, I'd want out of here.

Again, Hayward shot more then Smart did. That is just an incorrect narrative,.

Gordon this past season shot only 2 shots less per game than his allstar season in Utah.

Pace of play in Utah was snail like

FGA/100 possessions:

2013:  19.4
2014:  19.4
2015:  22.0
2016:  21.9
2017:  24.1
2020:  19.4

2017 was the outlier, but the other years are fairly similar to last year.

[bdm860]

There were many instances where Hayward would defer or pass up shots. He was guns shy and timid.

He lacked confidence from the injury so him blaming his usage on anything other than that is ridiculous. We all screamed for him to be more aggressive. That’s all on him.

The only “lack of aggressiveness” from Hayward that I’ve been disappointed in is his free throw rate.  It’s about half of what it was with the Jazz.  Is that our offense, or is that Gordon being hesitatant to drive because of his ankle?

His shots per possession are fairly similar to where they were in Utah.

When I'm watching Hayward, this is what I see:

Doesn't force his shot and won't hold the ball trying to get a pick or take his man off the dribble (both good) and if he can get by his man he'll drive the lane (also good), but when he drives, I feel like once he gets past the free throw line, he slows down and immediately looks for a pass, and not sure if this is because he's being timid or unselfish.    To me it definitely looks timid, but then he'll cut back door or get out on the break no problem, so I think it's more him trying to be a facilitator.

But him getting the ball at the 3 point line and driving, it's like he's driving at highway speeds from the 3point line to about the free throw line, but once he gets one step inside the free throw line his speed drops to the level of driving around a residential neighborhood looking for the house number to a place he's never been to before as he looks for somebody to pass to.  Does anybody else feel this way, or is it just me?

It was probably the right role for last year's Celtics, but I wish he drove harder like 50% of the time, would have probably helped him get to the free throw line more.

[PhoSita]

re: Hayward and aggressiveness, I can't think of many instances when he took over in crunch time by getting into the teeth of the defense and either passing out or getting a great shot within 10 feet.

There were definitely times that the team needed that.

Also I can't think of too many times where Hayward was playing with mostly bench guys and he took over on offense to keep the team afloat while Tatum / Brown / Kemba were sitting. 

That's something else you'd hope to see from your 3rd / 4th option who you know has the talent to score 20+.


Hayward to me is an elite version of Joe Ingles.  He's always been that.  On a team that needs to run the offense through him he can score 20-24 points a game.  But it's not in his nature to be a pure scorer / offensive workhorse. 

[footey]

There were many instances where Hayward would defer or pass up shots. He was guns shy and timid.

He lacked confidence from the injury so him blaming his usage on anything other than that is ridiculous. We all screamed for him to be more aggressive. That’s all on him.

No, he had teammates that were 'volume shooters'.  And that's the problem with this team - at least from his perspective.  Tatum and Smart shoot too much.  And when they're cold, it hurts the team because neither one stops shooting. You pass to either one on the perimeter and it often never comes back. Then Kemba and Jaylen feel like they're not getting enough shots and they feel like they have to 'get theirs'. 

If I were Hayward, I'd want out of here.

Again, Hayward shot more then Smart did. That is just an incorrect narrative,.

Gordon this past season shot only 2 shots less per game than his allstar season in Utah.

Pace of play in Utah was snail like

FGA/100 possessions:

2013:  19.4
2014:  19.4
2015:  22.0
2016:  21.9
2017:  24.1
2020:  19.4

2017 was the outlier, but the other years are fairly similar to last year.

2017 wasn't outlier, it was what he was trending toward.  To drop 4.5 shots per 100 is pretty significant.

You left out 2019. What were his ## then?

[DefenseWinsChamps]

re: Hayward and aggressiveness, I can't think of many instances when he took over in crunch time by getting into the teeth of the defense and either passing out or getting a great shot within 10 feet.

There were definitely times that the team needed that.

Also I can't think of too many times where Hayward was playing with mostly bench guys and he took over on offense to keep the team afloat while Tatum / Brown / Kemba were sitting. 

That's something else you'd hope to see from your 3rd / 4th option who you know has the talent to score 20+.


Hayward to me is an elite version of Joe Ingles.  He's always been that.  On a team that needs to run the offense through him he can score 20-24 points a game.  But it's not in his nature to be a pure scorer / offensive workhorse.

These are good thoughts. I think Hayward is a much better version of Ingles (ie not even comparable) but I get it. The Jazz coaches constantly were begging Hayward to shoot more. I think we've seen a pattern with him.

He's a great player. Unselfish, versatile, smart, tough, etc. But he's not a reliable lead scorer. That's just not how he is wired.

I would much rather the Cs find a way to keep him and win a championship with him. I hope he gets a championship. He deserves it.

[Darth_Yoda]

There were many instances where Hayward would defer or pass up shots. He was guns shy and timid.

He lacked confidence from the injury so him blaming his usage on anything other than that is ridiculous. We all screamed for him to be more aggressive. That’s all on him.

No, he had teammates that were 'volume shooters'.  And that's the problem with this team - at least from his perspective.  Tatum and Smart shoot too much.  And when they're cold, it hurts the team because neither one stops shooting. You pass to either one on the perimeter and it often never comes back. Then Kemba and Jaylen feel like they're not getting enough shots and they feel like they have to 'get theirs'. 

If I were Hayward, I'd want out of here.

Again, Hayward shot more then Smart did. That is just an incorrect narrative,.

Gordon this past season shot only 2 shots less per game than his allstar season in Utah.

Pace of play in Utah was snail like

FGA/100 possessions:

2013:  19.4
2014:  19.4
2015:  22.0
2016:  21.9
2017:  24.1
2020:  19.4

2017 was the outlier, but the other years are fairly similar to last year.

2017 wasn't outlier, it was what he was trending toward.  To drop 4.5 shots per 100 is pretty significant.

You left out 2019. What were his ## then?

2017 Hayward 1156 shots attempted over 73 games - 15.84 shots per game
2020 Hayward 700 shots attempted over 52 games - 13.46 shots per game

On a team with far superior talent to Utah Gordon shot 2.38 shots less per game. I can assure you that he passed up at least 1 shot a game that he should have taken as evidenced by his increase in assists from 3.5 to 4.1 and an increase of assist points created from 9.0 to 10.6.

There is a completely insignificant difference in his opportunity here than there was in Utah, he didnt take advantage and got surpassed,.

[Greengang5]

re: Hayward and aggressiveness, I can't think of many instances when he took over in crunch time by getting into the teeth of the defense and either passing out or getting a great shot within 10 feet.

There were definitely times that the team needed that.

Also I can't think of too many times where Hayward was playing with mostly bench guys and he took over on offense to keep the team afloat while Tatum / Brown / Kemba were sitting. 

That's something else you'd hope to see from your 3rd / 4th option who you know has the talent to score 20+.


Hayward to me is an elite version of Joe Ingles.  He's always been that.  On a team that needs to run the offense through him he can score 20-24 points a game.  But it's not in his nature to be a pure scorer / offensive workhorse.

These are good thoughts. I think Hayward is a much better version of Ingles (ie not even comparable) but I get it. The Jazz coaches constantly were begging Hayward to shoot more. I think we've seen a pattern with him.

He's a great player. Unselfish, versatile, smart, tough, etc. But he's not a reliable lead scorer. That's just not how he is wired.

I would much rather the Cs find a way to keep him and win a championship with him. I hope he gets a championship. He deserves it.

Hayward was a PG until he had the growth spurt.  I think he said he likes an assist over a basket.  He made himself into a 20+ per night scorer through hard work.  It isnt easy scoring 20 in the NBA.  That is why I like Brown.  I see a similar dedication to improve every year from him.  I enjoy watching those players who keep working and improve their games when maybe people doubted them coming in.  Tatum has always been a scorer.  Now need to see his development in other areas. 

[Greengang5]

There were many instances where Hayward would defer or pass up shots. He was guns shy and timid.

He lacked confidence from the injury so him blaming his usage on anything other than that is ridiculous. We all screamed for him to be more aggressive. That’s all on him.

No, he had teammates that were 'volume shooters'.  And that's the problem with this team - at least from his perspective.  Tatum and Smart shoot too much.  And when they're cold, it hurts the team because neither one stops shooting. You pass to either one on the perimeter and it often never comes back. Then Kemba and Jaylen feel like they're not getting enough shots and they feel like they have to 'get theirs'. 

If I were Hayward, I'd want out of here.

Again, Hayward shot more then Smart did. That is just an incorrect narrative,.

Gordon this past season shot only 2 shots less per game than his allstar season in Utah.

Pace of play in Utah was snail like

FGA/100 possessions:

2013:  19.4
2014:  19.4
2015:  22.0
2016:  21.9
2017:  24.1
2020:  19.4

2017 was the outlier, but the other years are fairly similar to last year.

2017 wasn't outlier, it was what he was trending toward.  To drop 4.5 shots per 100 is pretty significant.

You left out 2019. What were his ## then?

2017 Hayward 1156 shots attempted over 73 games - 15.84 shots per game
2020 Hayward 700 shots attempted over 52 games - 13.46 shots per game

On a team with far superior talent to Utah Gordon shot 2.38 shots less per game. I can assure you that he passed up at least 1 shot a game that he should have taken as evidenced by his increase in assists from 3.5 to 4.1 and an increase of assist points created from 9.0 to 10.6.

There is a completely insignificant difference in his opportunity here than there was in Utah, he didnt take advantage and got surpassed,.

I think you are focusing on shots too much based on that report that may or may not be accurate.  It is the role that he is evaluating, not just shots. And there are shots taken at the end of first where he is leading second unit and then there is being involved during crunch time.  Not saying he should be taking 10 shots and Tatum standing there.  But if you have an opportunity to become #2 in crunch time again you need to consider it.  But I think he likes Boston, team, coaches as he said

[ozgod]

re: Hayward and aggressiveness, I can't think of many instances when he took over in crunch time by getting into the teeth of the defense and either passing out or getting a great shot within 10 feet.

There were definitely times that the team needed that.

Also I can't think of too many times where Hayward was playing with mostly bench guys and he took over on offense to keep the team afloat while Tatum / Brown / Kemba were sitting. 

That's something else you'd hope to see from your 3rd / 4th option who you know has the talent to score 20+.


Hayward to me is an elite version of Joe Ingles.  He's always been that.  On a team that needs to run the offense through him he can score 20-24 points a game.  But it's not in his nature to be a pure scorer / offensive workhorse.

These are good thoughts. I think Hayward is a much better version of Ingles (ie not even comparable) but I get it. The Jazz coaches constantly were begging Hayward to shoot more. I think we've seen a pattern with him.

He's a great player. Unselfish, versatile, smart, tough, etc. But he's not a reliable lead scorer. That's just not how he is wired.

I would much rather the Cs find a way to keep him and win a championship with him. I hope he gets a championship. He deserves it.

This is really the problem a lot Cs fans have with him. They expect a max player to be a Harden type, someone who will dominate the scoring, be the No1 option, be the takeover guy. It's almost offensive to some fans that he's getting paid max money to be a No.4 option. Unfortunately the market determines a player's value and that's what the market determined Hayward's value was. They said the same of Al Horford but because Gordon is a versatile player who can contribute in many different ways, some of those ways don't necessarily show up on the scoreboard. But unfortunately for us there's not enough money to go around to keep everyone so either Hayward will have to take a haircut along with Kemba or we lose one or both of them eventually and if we're going to lose either of them we definitely need to get something back.

[Darth_Yoda]

There were many instances where Hayward would defer or pass up shots. He was guns shy and timid.

He lacked confidence from the injury so him blaming his usage on anything other than that is ridiculous. We all screamed for him to be more aggressive. That’s all on him.

No, he had teammates that were 'volume shooters'.  And that's the problem with this team - at least from his perspective.  Tatum and Smart shoot too much.  And when they're cold, it hurts the team because neither one stops shooting. You pass to either one on the perimeter and it often never comes back. Then Kemba and Jaylen feel like they're not getting enough shots and they feel like they have to 'get theirs'. 

If I were Hayward, I'd want out of here.

Again, Hayward shot more then Smart did. That is just an incorrect narrative,.

Gordon this past season shot only 2 shots less per game than his allstar season in Utah.

Pace of play in Utah was snail like

FGA/100 possessions:

2013:  19.4
2014:  19.4
2015:  22.0
2016:  21.9
2017:  24.1
2020:  19.4

2017 was the outlier, but the other years are fairly similar to last year.

2017 wasn't outlier, it was what he was trending toward.  To drop 4.5 shots per 100 is pretty significant.

You left out 2019. What were his ## then?

2017 Hayward 1156 shots attempted over 73 games - 15.84 shots per game
2020 Hayward 700 shots attempted over 52 games - 13.46 shots per game

On a team with far superior talent to Utah Gordon shot 2.38 shots less per game. I can assure you that he passed up at least 1 shot a game that he should have taken as evidenced by his increase in assists from 3.5 to 4.1 and an increase of assist points created from 9.0 to 10.6.

There is a completely insignificant difference in his opportunity here than there was in Utah, he didnt take advantage and got surpassed,.

I think you are focusing on shots too much based on that report that may or may not be accurate.  It is the role that he is evaluating, not just shots. And there are shots taken at the end of first where he is leading second unit and then there is being involved during crunch time.  Not saying he should be taking 10 shots and Tatum standing there.  But if you have an opportunity to become #2 in crunch time again you need to consider it.  But I think he likes Boston, team, coaches as he said

There was a poster who posted previously that smart takes more shots than hayward amd that his role is greatly reduced 

I show he is shooting essentially the same, is making more passes now, so it doesnt make sense.

The only think a person could argue is his usage is lower in boston, but utah payed a far dar far alower pace. So overall time of possession is similar.

He got 57.7 touches this year compared to 62 touches in utah.

Minor change

[PhoSita]

re: Hayward and aggressiveness, I can't think of many instances when he took over in crunch time by getting into the teeth of the defense and either passing out or getting a great shot within 10 feet.

There were definitely times that the team needed that.

Also I can't think of too many times where Hayward was playing with mostly bench guys and he took over on offense to keep the team afloat while Tatum / Brown / Kemba were sitting. 

That's something else you'd hope to see from your 3rd / 4th option who you know has the talent to score 20+.


Hayward to me is an elite version of Joe Ingles.  He's always been that.  On a team that needs to run the offense through him he can score 20-24 points a game.  But it's not in his nature to be a pure scorer / offensive workhorse.

These are good thoughts. I think Hayward is a much better version of Ingles (ie not even comparable) but I get it. The Jazz coaches constantly were begging Hayward to shoot more. I think we've seen a pattern with him.

He's a great player. Unselfish, versatile, smart, tough, etc. But he's not a reliable lead scorer. That's just not how he is wired.

I would much rather the Cs find a way to keep him and win a championship with him. I hope he gets a championship. He deserves it.

Joe Ingles is one of my favorite players, to be clear.  It's not a knock, just a descriptor.

[celticinorlando]

I mean if his choices are signing with Atlanta or Charlotte as a UFA or being traded home to Indiana, not a real choice.

[Sketch5]

If Hayward Stays we need to move Kemba for a big or bench help, start Smart and make Hayward the point forward. The team just runs better when the offense runs through him, cuase he moves the ball and make the right plays.

I have mixed feelings on Hayward, I like him, when hes agressive he's really good and the team is better. He's had a tough 3 seasons. Injury, coming back from injury( and dealing with Irving) then he starts playing well, breaks his hand, get back, starts playing well again, covid. Gets hurt in the bubble and has to deal with missing the birth of his son. I feel bad for the dude. It's easy to think moving on would be the best thing for his, but it could also be the worst at the same time, depending were he goes. Indy has a shot at being good, Warriors are the Warriors, but Atlanta is years from being legit.

All depends what he really wants moving forward.