Celticsstrong 2021 Historical Draft - VOTES ARE IN

[Moranis]

The Rockets went from 46 to 14 wins because they built their offence around Moses: their defence didn't deteriorate much even with the departure of key cog Robert Reid. The Rockets' offence collapsing is a sign of Moses being an elite offensive player, but the fact that they were slightly above average when Moses was there isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of him being the best of the best on that end of the court, other greats did more with around the same or even less.

before Magic, the Lakers won 45 and 47 games with Kareem and those teams had Adrian Dantley, Norm Nixon, and Jamaal Wilkes so they weren't exactly devoid of talent.  why were the Lakers so mediocre if Kareem was that good?  I mean that is basically the argument you made, yet ignore it for Kareem who claim was better than Moses.

[Somebody]

Knew it’d be Kawhi. Last of the two-way forces of that calibre remaining. Can shoot from 3 levels, plays elite defence, rebounds, is an improved passer and is clutch. Good pick

I rate his 2020 season very highly - his jump as a passer really impressed me, he definitely jumped into the upper echelon of MVP candidates with his improvements last season (think LeBron/Curry/Durant/Giannis/AD).

Yeah, me too. He also showed up in the playoffs, despite most of his team hanging him out to dry. Plus, he’s a fun guy

except the 4th quarter of the Denver series.  In that Kawhi failed miserably, which is why I would select his Toronto season and not his Clippers one. 

4th quarter stats against Nuggets
Game 7 - 0-5, -12
Game 6 - 3-7, -10
Game 5 - 3-7, -11
Game 4 - 2-4, +0
Game 3 - 1-7, +8
Game 2 - 0-3, +1
Game 1 - did not play

So in the 4th quarter of a series they lost in 7 after blowing massive 2nd half leads in the final 3 games, Kawhi was 9 of 33 or 27.3% and his team was -24 with him on the floor in those 4th quarters.

Kawhi may have been better in the regular season with the Clippers than he was with the Raptors, but he was a monster for the Raptors in the playoffs and he didn't show up at all in the most meaningful time for the Clippers in a series they lost.  I'd absolutely choose the Raptors season for him.  He was just better.

He definitely wasn't better in Toronto, this is winning bias at its finest. Cherrypicking a select quarter of a random series with stats that only capture one aspect of the game (won't even get into raw +/-, stuff like that in a 7 game sample size is utterly useless) doesn't even come close to being strong evidence for him "utterly failing when it mattered the most", for all we know he could've created a bunch of open looks for his teammates with his offensive gravity and still graded out as a massive positive for the Clippers offensively in the fourth quarter of the series.

[GreenFaith1819]

Going with one of my favorite players of all time:



Indiana proudly selects Steve Nash to run this team.

[Darth_Yoda]

Going with one of my favorite players of all time:



Indiana proudly selects Steve Nash to run this team.

Nooooooooooooooooo

[RPGenerate]

Knew it’d be Kawhi. Last of the two-way forces of that calibre remaining. Can shoot from 3 levels, plays elite defence, rebounds, is an improved passer and is clutch. Good pick

I rate his 2020 season very highly - his jump as a passer really impressed me, he definitely jumped into the upper echelon of MVP candidates with his improvements last season (think LeBron/Curry/Durant/Giannis/AD).

Yeah, me too. He also showed up in the playoffs, despite most of his team hanging him out to dry. Plus, he’s a fun guy

except the 4th quarter of the Denver series.  In that Kawhi failed miserably, which is why I would select his Toronto season and not his Clippers one. 

4th quarter stats against Nuggets
Game 7 - 0-5, -12
Game 6 - 3-7, -10
Game 5 - 3-7, -11
Game 4 - 2-4, +0
Game 3 - 1-7, +8
Game 2 - 0-3, +1
Game 1 - did not play

So in the 4th quarter of a series they lost in 7 after blowing massive 2nd half leads in the final 3 games, Kawhi was 9 of 33 or 27.3% and his team was -24 with him on the floor in those 4th quarters.

Kawhi may have been better in the regular season with the Clippers than he was with the Raptors, but he was a monster for the Raptors in the playoffs and he didn't show up at all in the most meaningful time for the Clippers in a series they lost.  I'd absolutely choose the Raptors season for him.  He was just better.

He definitely wasn't better in Toronto, this is winning bias at its finest. Cherrypicking a select quarter of a random series with stats that only capture one aspect of the game (won't even get into raw +/-, stuff like that in a 7 game sample size is utterly useless) doesn't even come close to being strong evidence for him "utterly failing when it mattered the most", for all we know he could've created a bunch of open looks for his teammates with his offensive gravity and still graded out as a massive positive for the Clippers offensively in the fourth quarter of the series.

I really don't think it's cherrypicking to say that he let his team down in the 4th quarter in that series, at least as a scorer. The whole team was faltering, and Kawhi needed to be the scorer himself. Sadly he didn't do that. As the leader, he needs to shoulder at least some of the blame for such a collapse.

[RPGenerate]

Going with one of my favorite players of all time:



Indiana proudly selects Steve Nash to run this team.

Good choice. He spearheaded some of the most potent offenses in the league for nearly a decade.

[Jvalin]

With the 8th pick of the 1st round, the Milwaukee Bucks select Nikola Jokić.



Imo, the best Center in the draft. Obviously, he ain't got the accolades of Moses, but he's only 25 years old. The guy led a mediocre Nuggets team to the WCF last season. When all is said and done, I firmly believe he'll be considered a better player than Moses. According to the advanced stats, he's already better than prime Moses.

Eh, mediocre? Jamal Murray was a beast in those playoffs! Good pick tho, even if I disagree that he's a good a player a Moses.

Is Murray good enough to be considered the second option on a contending team? I don't think so. They were also playing without (edit: sorry, shouldn't have mentioned his name) who was probably their 3rd best player during the regular season. For a team that reaches the WCF, that's pretty mediocre in my book.

[Moranis]

Knew it’d be Kawhi. Last of the two-way forces of that calibre remaining. Can shoot from 3 levels, plays elite defence, rebounds, is an improved passer and is clutch. Good pick

I rate his 2020 season very highly - his jump as a passer really impressed me, he definitely jumped into the upper echelon of MVP candidates with his improvements last season (think LeBron/Curry/Durant/Giannis/AD).

Yeah, me too. He also showed up in the playoffs, despite most of his team hanging him out to dry. Plus, he’s a fun guy

except the 4th quarter of the Denver series.  In that Kawhi failed miserably, which is why I would select his Toronto season and not his Clippers one. 

4th quarter stats against Nuggets
Game 7 - 0-5, -12
Game 6 - 3-7, -10
Game 5 - 3-7, -11
Game 4 - 2-4, +0
Game 3 - 1-7, +8
Game 2 - 0-3, +1
Game 1 - did not play

So in the 4th quarter of a series they lost in 7 after blowing massive 2nd half leads in the final 3 games, Kawhi was 9 of 33 or 27.3% and his team was -24 with him on the floor in those 4th quarters.

Kawhi may have been better in the regular season with the Clippers than he was with the Raptors, but he was a monster for the Raptors in the playoffs and he didn't show up at all in the most meaningful time for the Clippers in a series they lost.  I'd absolutely choose the Raptors season for him.  He was just better.

He definitely wasn't better in Toronto, this is winning bias at its finest. Cherrypicking a select quarter of a random series with stats that only capture one aspect of the game (won't even get into raw +/-, stuff like that in a 7 game sample size is utterly useless) doesn't even come close to being strong evidence for him "utterly failing when it mattered the most", for all we know he could've created a bunch of open looks for his teammates with his offensive gravity and still graded out as a massive positive for the Clippers offensively in the fourth quarter of the series.

I was specifically commenting on gouki's point that he showed up in the playoffs and his teammates left him out to dry.  That is not someone that showed up when it mattered.  He shot 27.3% on 5.5 shot attempts in the 4th quarter of a series they lost. 

For context against Dallas in the 4th quarter of the 6 games Lebron was 7 of 20 or 35% though took 2 less shots per game.  And that is considered one of the worst playoff melt downs ever (and many would call it the worst ever).  Kawhi was awful in the 4th quarter against the Nuggets.  There is no other way around it.  He just didn't show up throughout the 4th quarter that series.  It happens to great players, but it also isn't really all that arguable.  And for the record, Paul George had a better TS% than Kawhi did in that series, and George is getting crushed for being so bad and yet he was more efficient than Kawhi.

You are certainly free to choose whatever season you want, but there is no way I'd choose LA over Toronto.  In Toronto, Kawhi was a monster for basically 4 playoff rounds (the final 3 rounds against the Sixers, Bucks, and Warriors he was basically a 30/10/4 player).  He stepped up and defended Giannis better than anyone had, he brought it on both ends of the floor, and he wasn't fully healthy.  That just isn't what happened in LA.  Kawhi failed the Clippers last year.  It happens from time to time from great players and shouldn't diminish the other seasons or accolades, but I just can't get past how bad Kawhi played when his team needed him the most and if you choose that season it will be there lingering.  You choose the Finals MVP season when he was a monster, you eliminate much of that lingering questions and then really only have to defend him missing 25% of his teams games (which you'd have to do if you chose LA anyway).

[RPGenerate]

With the 8th pick of the 1st round, the Milwaukee Bucks select Nikola Jokić.



Imo, the best Center in the draft. Obviously, he ain't got the accolades of Moses, but he's only 25 years old. The guy led a mediocre Nuggets team to the WCF last season. When all is said and done, I firmly believe he'll be considered a better player than Moses. According to the advanced stats, he's already better than prime Moses.

Eh, mediocre? Jamal Murray was a beast in those playoffs! Good pick tho, even if I disagree that he's a good a player a Moses.

Is Murray good enough to be considered the second option on a contending team? I don't think so. They were also playing without Barton who was probably their 3rd best player during the regular season. For a team that reaches the WCF, that's pretty mediocre in my book.

I mean, he averaged over 26 pts/game on crazy efficiency. That's good enough in my book. Averaged 32 pts/game against Utah, who would have beaten the Nuggets in the first round otherwise.

[Somebody]

The Rockets went from 46 to 14 wins because they built their offence around Moses: their defence didn't deteriorate much even with the departure of key cog Robert Reid. The Rockets' offence collapsing is a sign of Moses being an elite offensive player, but the fact that they were slightly above average when Moses was there isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of him being the best of the best on that end of the court, other greats did more with around the same or even less.

before Magic, the Lakers won 45 and 47 games with Kareem and those teams had Adrian Dantley, Norm Nixon, and Jamaal Wilkes so they weren't exactly devoid of talent.  why were the Lakers so mediocre if Kareem was that good?  I mean that is basically the argument you made, yet ignore it for Kareem who claim was better than Moses.

Because there is this thing called point differential that is more reliable than raw wins at predicting future performance and stats like team ORTG/DRTG that measure a team's offensive and defensive prowess? The Lakers were consistently in the top 5 in SRS and team ORTG while their team DRTG never dropped lower than 11th, Moses' teams had average SRS ratings and utterly sucked defensively.

This showed in terms of playoff success: prior to that '81 miracle run, the Moses led Rockets missed the playoffs in '78, lost to a slightly above average Hawks squad in the first round in '79 and got swept in the second round by a Celtics squad that got manhandled by the Sixers in the conference finals in '80 (albeit deservedly). Kareem got similar treatment as the '80 Rockets in '77 by getting owned by a dominant Blazers squad with a stacked supporting cast around Walton, but they made the conference finals by arguably overachieving against a strong Golden State squad that was above them in SRS, made their first-round exit in '78 against the conference champions competitive and lost to the very same team again next year in the second round, but that '79 Sonics team won the title that season!

[Somebody]

Going with one of my favorite players of all time:



Indiana proudly selects Steve Nash to run this team.

This was the guy I had in tier 1. Great pick!

[Celtic Fan Forever]

Going with one of my favorite players of all time:



Indiana proudly selects Steve Nash to run this team.

This was the guy I had in tier 1. Great pick!

His defensive deficiencies took him out of tier 1 for me, but I do love me some Nash.

[Darth_Yoda]

Give me a couple of minutes, just got back to office and I am torn between 2 directions.

[RPGenerate]

Wonder who the last pick of the round is gonna be.

[Moranis]

Seems a bit early for Jokic.  Certainly could end up in the pantheon one day, but seems a bit early for me for a guy that isn't an elite scorer nor a very good defender.  Certainly an excellent all around offensive player and the best passing big man available, I just think it was a touch early for him.

Not many multiple MVP's available, though I do worry about Nash's defense.  Pair him with some strong wing defenders and I think he could be all right, they just have to fit with him offensively which is far more difficult in this given the dearth of excellent 2-way players. 

But these last two picks are why I think this draft will be like no other.  Even the 1st round picks have real flaws, which makes this so exciting and interesting.