I'm ready to move on from Kemba

[mrceltics2013]

Theis and Allen are absolutely not even, so I’m not sure what you mean about that.

Their production is very similar, except that Allen has no game outside of three feet from the basket.  Allen is a bit better at rebounding, but that’s probably because Theis stretches the floor more.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jarrett+Allen&player_id1_select=Jarrett+Allen&player_id1=allenja01&idx=bbr__players&p1yrfrom=2020&player_id2_hint=Daniel+Theis&player_id2_select=Daniel+Theis&player_id2=theisda01&idx=bbr__players&p2yrfrom=2020

That’s fine that’s more of a reason for the Nets to value Theis more for their situation. Either way Joe Harris and 2 of Allen, LeVert, Spencer is what’s mainly important. Who we get out of those 3 is whatever because we need those 3 players.

[footey]

I think I just nailed the Kemba trade:


Nets: Kemba, Thesis, 14th and Milwaukee Pick
Bos: Joe Harris, Dinwiddie, J, Allen

Kemba goes home AND plays for a contender.

Celtics get a shooter, center, and another PG

You can even play around with this trade, Nets have what we need and we have what they could use.

Dinwiddie? Might as well have kept Terry Rozier. Neither plays team ball, pound the ball.  Why do you think Brad wanted no part of Rondo?

[mrceltics2013]

I think I just nailed the Kemba trade:


Nets: Kemba, Thesis, 14th and Milwaukee Pick
Bos: Joe Harris, Dinwiddie, J, Allen

Kemba goes home AND plays for a contender.

Celtics get a shooter, center, and another PG

You can even play around with this trade, Nets have what we need and we have what they could use.

Dinwiddie? Might as well have kept Terry Rozier. Neither plays team ball, pound the ball.  Why do you think Brad wanted no part of Rondo?

Kept Terry? I guess it doesn’t help that I was never against that idea from the first place huh? Be honest wasn’t the Terry playoff the most exciting run we seen in a while? Way more exciting than Kemba lead because you was watching players grow right before your eyes.  Terry has room to grow but there another subject, but Rondo is more than a ball pounder he’s also a head case so there is a difference.

I guess again it also doesn’t help that I feel like prime Rondo would have been the PERFECT pg for this years Celtics.  Tatum Brown and Smart off catch and shoot/drive is DANGEROUS and [dang] near unstoppable. When they catch and try and make their own shots is when it goes downhill. They run offense like rec ball and it needs to be lead by a stronger leader or a high IQ PG

[RodyTur10]

I think I just nailed the Kemba trade:


Nets: Kemba, Thesis, 14th and Milwaukee Pick
Bos: Joe Harris, Dinwiddie, J, Allen

Kemba goes home AND plays for a contender.

Celtics get a shooter, center, and another PG

You can even play around with this trade, Nets have what we need and we have what they could use.

Dinwiddie? Might as well have kept Terry Rozier. Neither plays team ball, pound the ball.  Why do you think Brad wanted no part of Rondo?

Kept Terry? I guess it doesn’t help that I was never against that idea from the first place huh? Be honest wasn’t the Terry playoff the most exciting run we seen in a while? Way more exciting than Kemba lead because you was watching players grow right before your eyes.  Terry has room to grow but there another subject, but Rondo is more than a ball pounder he’s also a head case so there is a difference.

I guess again it also doesn’t help that I feel like prime Rondo would have been the PERFECT pg for this years Celtics.  Tatum Brown and Smart off catch and shoot/drive is DANGEROUS and [dang] near unstoppable. When they catch and try and make their own shots is when it goes downhill. They run offense like rec ball and it needs to be lead by a stronger leader or a high IQ PG

Actually the performances of Terry Rozier (23 at the time) in 2018 Playoffs and Kemba Walker (29, All Star) 2020 Playoffs have been remarkably similar. Walker has a small scoring edge, surprisingly lacked a bit in playmaking, overall a bit better offensively, but defensively Rozier has the upperhand.

Also for the regular season this year the difference is much smaller than you'd expect.

Walker averaging 20/4/5 on 58 TS% and Rozier averaging 18/4/4 on 55 TS%.
And that for half the price.

I don't have any issues with Rozier. I completely understand that he wanted a bigger role than playing second fiddle to Irving (or somebody else) for another season. Rozier sacrificed a lot during his time with the Celtics, if Irving didn't have that many injuries, it probably would have cost him millions.

[Erik]

I'd love to see a Simmons-Tatum pick-and-roll, but I'm pretty sure Philly fans would burn their arena to the ground if the Sixers made another trade with the Celtics.

Pick and roll is functionally useless when the ball handler cannot shoot a 3 because you just go under the pick and the play ends because he won’t shoot using that space created by the concession of going under the pick.

https://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*Simmons

Its also functionally useless when the roll guy can’t shoot at all because you know he HAS to roll and so you just follow your guy and don’t have to worry about separation from a pick and pop like Stockton and Malone (Malone was a good mid range shooter).

https://stats.nba.com/players/roll-man/?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*Simmons&SeasonType=Regular%20Season


In more general terms, Ben Simmons is functionally useless in a half court offense in 2020. This board would crucify him within 5 games.

[gouki88]

Theis and Allen are absolutely not even, so I’m not sure what you mean about that.

Their production is very similar, except that Allen has no game outside of three feet from the basket.  Allen is a bit better at rebounding, but that’s probably because Theis stretches the floor more.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jarrett+Allen&player_id1_select=Jarrett+Allen&player_id1=allenja01&idx=bbr__players&p1yrfrom=2020&player_id2_hint=Daniel+Theis&player_id2_select=Daniel+Theis&player_id2=theisda01&idx=bbr__players&p2yrfrom=2020

I don't think it's fair to say Allen is "a bit better at rebounding". He is vastly better than Theis. Allen has an OREB% of 12.3 compared to Theis' 9.7, and a DREB% of 24.9 compared to Theis' 19.3. Those are very very significant differences.

It's only somewhat offset by Theis' ability to sometimes hit 3s IMO. I think Allen is significantly better, especially when you look at how they play in increased minutes. In games where 30+ minutes are played Allen averages 15PPG, 12RPG and 2APG, compared to Theis' 12PPg, 10RPG and 3APG. In 10 of the 17 games Allen played at 30+MPG he had multiple blocks in 10 of them and got steals in 10 of them too.

Allen hasn't come good on his potential yet, but he's certainly better than Theis

[gouki88]

In regard to the OP, those trades do not fill me with excitement. A pick in the latter half of the lotto and a TPE, or an extremely faulty star in Simmons.

You keep hammering home that Simmons could play the 5 regularly, and not just as a gimmick like it was in Philly, because he's tall. That's not how it works. Tatum is taller than Ben Wallace, is he suited to play the 5? Jaylen Brown is as tall as Wes Unseld. Michael Carter-Williams is as tall as Chuck Hayes, PJ Tucker and Grant Williams, guess they're all equally suited to playing centre?

It's really not just as simple as tall = big-man ability. Especially when for years Simmons has been played as a point and is not strong enough to handle big men. Seeing Giannis, Embiid, Adebayo, Vucevic, Sabonis and the like in the East get either Simmons or Brown in foul trouble early would be brutal to see. Don't even get me started on the bigs out West.

I really, really do not think that the lesson of this playoff run is that more positionless basketball is better

[blink]

I think Kemba's offensive contribution could be replaced by more minutes from Smart and whatever other player we would get back in a trade.

Substituting Kemba’s offense with Smart’s would seem to be a pretty significant downgrade, no?  Especially with Hayward’s future here in doubt, I don’t think it makes sense to downgrade our offense.

I didn't say substitute more Smart only, I said a bit more Smart plus an incoming player - see bolded.  Whoever that is will need to be at least a 15ppg scorer at whatever position, probably a point guard.  That incoming player is hopefully bigger and a decent defender that works in our def scheme better than Kemba.  Smart just has to score a little bit more, or if not JT and JB can probably up their output by a couple points a game as well.  I would personally like Smart at the point, with a 2nd small wing player taking more shots / points than Smart.  Then Marcus can focus on what he does really well which is drive to the hoop, move the ball, and be the def mvp.

[blink]

I think Kemba's offensive contribution could be replaced by more minutes from Smart and whatever other player we would get back in a trade.

Substituting Kemba’s offense with Smart’s would seem to be a pretty significant downgrade, no?  Especially with Hayward’s future here in doubt, I don’t think it makes sense to downgrade our offense.

I imagine blink has a pretty significant player coming back in a trade with Kemba, not just subtracting his production from our team w/ no replacement.

But, let's be clear here - if Danny is looking to move on from Kemba, it will be next offseason, not this one. And that is not a bad place to be - we will still be a very good team this year w/ him on the team. Hopefully Brad can get a little more creative on how to handle the defensive switches - because it was pretty brutal watching guys like Lowry and Butler take him to school 1 on 1 w/ no contingency plan. I don't really fault Kemba for this - he put in an admirable effort.

Yes a starter level player, but doesn't need to be a star, just productive and a good def player. I mean it is all pie in the sky anyways.  As I said, DA isn't trading Kemba this off-season, too much bad karma sending out a FA signing so quickly.  Especially one as team oriented and willing to share the spotlight as Kemba.

[mrceltics2013]

I think I just nailed the Kemba trade:


Nets: Kemba, Thesis, 14th and Milwaukee Pick
Bos: Joe Harris, Dinwiddie, J, Allen

Kemba goes home AND plays for a contender.

Celtics get a shooter, center, and another PG

You can even play around with this trade, Nets have what we need and we have what they could use.

Dinwiddie? Might as well have kept Terry Rozier. Neither plays team ball, pound the ball.  Why do you think Brad wanted no part of Rondo?

Kept Terry? I guess it doesn’t help that I was never against that idea from the first place huh? Be honest wasn’t the Terry playoff the most exciting run we seen in a while? Way more exciting than Kemba lead because you was watching players grow right before your eyes.  Terry has room to grow but there another subject, but Rondo is more than a ball pounder he’s also a head case so there is a difference.

I guess again it also doesn’t help that I feel like prime Rondo would have been the PERFECT pg for this years Celtics.  Tatum Brown and Smart off catch and shoot/drive is DANGEROUS and [dang] near unstoppable. When they catch and try and make their own shots is when it goes downhill. They run offense like rec ball and it needs to be lead by a stronger leader or a high IQ PG

Actually the performances of Terry Rozier (23 at the time) in 2018 Playoffs and Kemba Walker (29, All Star) 2020 Playoffs have been remarkably similar. Walker has a small scoring edge, surprisingly lacked a bit in playmaking, overall a bit better offensively, but defensively Rozier has the upperhand.

Also for the regular season this year the difference is much smaller than you'd expect.

Walker averaging 20/4/5 on 58 TS% and Rozier averaging 18/4/4 on 55 TS%.
And that for half the price.

I don't have any issues with Rozier. I completely understand that he wanted a bigger role than playing second fiddle to Irving (or somebody else) for another season. Rozier sacrificed a lot during his time with the Celtics, if Irving didn't have that many injuries, it probably would have cost him millions.

And Terry was available and way more inexperienced than walker.  Terry was underrated in my opinion. He definitely needed to mature but he showed great potential at times.

[mrceltics2013]

Theis and Allen are absolutely not even, so I’m not sure what you mean about that.

Their production is very similar, except that Allen has no game outside of three feet from the basket.  Allen is a bit better at rebounding, but that’s probably because Theis stretches the floor more.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jarrett+Allen&player_id1_select=Jarrett+Allen&player_id1=allenja01&idx=bbr__players&p1yrfrom=2020&player_id2_hint=Daniel+Theis&player_id2_select=Daniel+Theis&player_id2=theisda01&idx=bbr__players&p2yrfrom=2020

I don't think it's fair to say Allen is "a bit better at rebounding". He is vastly better than Theis. Allen has an OREB% of 12.3 compared to Theis' 9.7, and a DREB% of 24.9 compared to Theis' 19.3. Those are very very significant differences.

It's only somewhat offset by Theis' ability to sometimes hit 3s IMO. I think Allen is significantly better, especially when you look at how they play in increased minutes. In games where 30+ minutes are played Allen averages 15PPG, 12RPG and 2APG, compared to Theis' 12PPg, 10RPG and 3APG. In 10 of the 17 games Allen played at 30+MPG he had multiple blocks in 10 of them and got steals in 10 of them too.

Allen hasn't come good on his potential yet, but he's certainly better than Theis

People are really underrating Dinwiddie and Allen. I’m starting to believe these fans never watched Celtics vs Nets games. Dinwiddie, LeVert, and Allen absolutely kill us. They are extremely talented players and their personalities fit Brown and Tatums. I think getting the Nets to buy in as a trading partner would be the best option off the Celtics.

[gouki88]

Theis and Allen are absolutely not even, so I’m not sure what you mean about that.

Their production is very similar, except that Allen has no game outside of three feet from the basket.  Allen is a bit better at rebounding, but that’s probably because Theis stretches the floor more.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Jarrett+Allen&player_id1_select=Jarrett+Allen&player_id1=allenja01&idx=bbr__players&p1yrfrom=2020&player_id2_hint=Daniel+Theis&player_id2_select=Daniel+Theis&player_id2=theisda01&idx=bbr__players&p2yrfrom=2020

I don't think it's fair to say Allen is "a bit better at rebounding". He is vastly better than Theis. Allen has an OREB% of 12.3 compared to Theis' 9.7, and a DREB% of 24.9 compared to Theis' 19.3. Those are very very significant differences.

It's only somewhat offset by Theis' ability to sometimes hit 3s IMO. I think Allen is significantly better, especially when you look at how they play in increased minutes. In games where 30+ minutes are played Allen averages 15PPG, 12RPG and 2APG, compared to Theis' 12PPg, 10RPG and 3APG. In 10 of the 17 games Allen played at 30+MPG he had multiple blocks in 10 of them and got steals in 10 of them too.

Allen hasn't come good on his potential yet, but he's certainly better than Theis

People are really underrating Dinwiddie and Allen. I’m starting to believe these fans never watched Celtics vs Nets games. Dinwiddie, LeVert, and Allen absolutely kill us. They are extremely talented players and their personalities fit Brown and Tatums. I think getting the Nets to buy in as a trading partner would be the best option off the Celtics.

I don't like Dinwiddie. Really inefficient scorer who doesn't play good defence. Dinwiddie's whole contract drama nonsense also frightens me. LeVert is also one of the more injury-prone guys in the league.

I like Allen, but that deal is not one I'd do

[Jvalin]

an extremely faulty star in Simmons.

People keep saying that Simmons is flawed cause he cannot shoot the 3. Is Bam flawed as well? Cause he ain't shooting the 3 either. Their games are very similar. Obviously, Bam is better at protecting the rim whereas Simmons is better at playing D on the perimeter. Both of them are great passers + ball handlers. Simmons is better at both these things.

You keep hammering home that Simmons could play the 5 regularly, and not just as a gimmick like it was in Philly, because he's tall.

Just because Philly uses Simmons on the ball, it doesn't mean that he cannot play off the ball as well.

- He sets picks.
- He's a terrific roller.
- He can catch pocket passes and finish through contact.
- He provides vertical spacing.
- He's 6'10 which is legit size for a Center in the modern NBA.

That's basically the offensive skill set of a rim runner. Obviously, Simmons and Bam can handle+pass the ball as well despite being 6'10 (6'9 in the case of Bam). This is why they are stars. Again, Simmons and Bam operate a bit differently on the defensive side of the ball. Simmons ain't an elite rim protector, which is fine for the C's given that he's an elite perimeter defender + pick n roll defender. CBS wants his Centers to switch ball screens on the perimeter. I literally cannot think of a more switchable big man than Simmons. He also wants his Centers to defend the pick n roll. Simmons allowed 0.81 PPP this season when defending the ball handler in the pick n roll. Can't find the respective numbers when defending the roller, cause the Sixers don't use him this way. Their defense is built around Embiid who stays back on pick and rolls and protects the basket.

I really, really do not think that the lesson of this playoff run is that more positionless basketball is better

Couldn't disagree more.

- Our best run in game 6 of the ECF was with Grant Williams playing at Center.
- Kanter played a total of 42 minutes in 13 games against the Raps and the Heat (=3.2 minutes per game).
- Gasol was almost unplayable for the Raps.
- Olynyk barely played in the ECF (6.6 minutes per game). In contrast, he was averaging 19.4 minutes per game during the regular season.
- Meyers Leonard has only played 9 minutes for the Heat throughout the playoffs! He had started 49 out of his 51 games in the regular season averaging 20.3 minutes per game. In fairness to Leonard, he faced an ankle injury, but that was around the all-star break. I bet he's 100% ready by now.
- Embiid put up great numbers, yet Philly got swept. He couldn't impact the game on D cause he ain't mobile enough to stay in front of quicker opponents on the perimeter and/or defend the pick n roll. Kemba got tons of open shots in that series, exactly because Embiid cannot defend the pick n roll. Here's the play we kept running. It's just a simple pick on the perimeter, yet the Sixers were unable to defend it.

[Jvalin]

Pick and roll is functionally useless when the ball handler cannot shoot a 3 because you just go under the pick and the play ends because he won’t shoot using that space created by the concession of going under the pick.

Tatum would be the ball handler and Simmons would be the roll man. Tatum has come a long way as a passer averaging 5(!) assists per game during the playoffs. He also scores 25.5% of his own points out of the pick n roll. Would love to see the Tatum-Simmons or the Smart-Simmons pick n roll.

Its also functionally useless when the roll guy can’t shoot at all because you know he HAS to roll and so you just follow your guy and don’t have to worry about separation from a pick and pop like Stockton and Malone (Malone was a good mid range shooter).

Some of the best roll men around the league are below average shooters (Giannis, Sabonis, Ayton, Brandon Clarke, Holmes, Theis) or even non shooters (Gobert, Whiteside, Jarrett Allen, Montrezl Harrell, Steven Adams, Mitchell Robinson, Jaxson Hayes, Ivica Zubac, Noel, McGee, to name a few).

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Please allow me to go full on crazy.

How about this? And I know the salaries don't match, but let's pretend that this is the core trade, and the add ons will be filled later.

To Indiana:
Gordon Hayward, Kemba Walker

To Boston:
Malcolm Brogdon, Domantas Sabonis

Who says no?

So the team would be:

G: Brogdon
G: Smart
F: Jaylen
F: Tatum
C: Sabonis

That doesn't fill me with confidence to be honest.

Well, that would be the closing lineup. To start with, Smart comes off the bench, Jaylen and Jayson at the wings, Theis at the PF. Enough floor spacing to keep it going, but plenty of size to go against any team.

I get the stats on a so-so team, but I can't deny the qualities. Brogdon is a really good two-way player who can create his own shot and distribute. At 6'5" he's excellent for any switch-related defensive schemes. Sabonis is young and can still grow, while already playing at an all star level.