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Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« on: August 01, 2020, 06:29:19 PM »

Offline RodyTur10

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In another topic I laid out how a new Hayward-deal could be benificial for the Celtics and Hayward.

This trade topic is based on the hypothetical situation that has the following assumptions:

1. Ownership requires the Celtics to stay below the luxury tax set at $132.6M (to start the clock for repeater taxes)
2. Ainge and Hayward can't come to an agreement for a new contract on a lower annual salary
3. Haywards picks up his player option at $34.19M
4. Enes Kanter opts in for $5.01M and the Celtics pick up options for Daniel Theis ($5M) and Semi Ojeleye ($1.75M)
5. Ainge doesn't want to trade Walker, Brown, Smart or Tatum at all


As a result the only option here is to trade Gordon Hayward to lower the payroll, such that the Celtics get below the tax.

Below I'll give a couple of examples of possible trade targets and teams that could be interested in Hayward. On purpose I will not make detailed trade proposals (based on fair value with picks etcetera) to avoid reactions as "that's terrible return", "laughable" or "completely unrealistic". Safe to say that Hayward + picks won't hand you a young upcoming star like Towns, Siakam or Booker, thus many proposals will feel quite underwhelming. Also the objective would be to try to avoid taking on (unnecessary) longterm salary.

I'll give the basics (feel free to add more options) and it's up to you to choose where you see a path for a deal and come up with the specifics what you'd think would be a reasonable proposal. You can re-arrange or expand to a 3-way-trade or whatever, but in any case Walker, Brown, Smart and Tatum are off-limits based on (assumption 5).
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Miami Heat: Tyler Herro + Kelly Olynyk (picks up PO) (+ possibly Andre Iguodala)

It looks like the Heat are really aiming at 2021 to sign a big free agent (hence no extension for Adebayo expected), thus using their potential cap space to absorb a part of Hayward's contract for a year might be an interesting deal for them. Adding a versatile forward and shooter in Hayward would be a great help for Butler and Adebayo.

The Celtics could target the guy that was grapped before us in last year's draft: Tyler Herro. On the safe assumption that Olynyk picks up his option he's logical salary filler. Question is whether Andre Iguodala has to be included, when Miami doesn't have the cap space. Options to be included in a deal as well are: Edwards, Green, Poirier and pick compensation.

Indiana Pacers: Myles Turner + Jeremy Lamb/TJ Warren

Here we are again: Myles Turner. Such an obvious target and I have seen lots of trade proposals involving him in the past. Is Indiana finally ready to break up Sabonis and Turner? I don't think they will, but it would be an interesting deal for Boston. Lamb (injured) can be trading filler, where Warren will probably cost an asset (even though Indiana got a pick from the Suns to take him on).

Orlando Magic: Aaron Gordon/Nikola Vucevic + Al-Farouq Aminu/James Ennis

The Magic have a 'luxury' problem at PF with Gordon and Isaac. Therefore I assume Gordon is expendable for them, while Hayward would add necessary scoring and playmaking. To meet salary criteria Aminu is included who should be shifted to a 3rd team like Atlanta by adding a pick, which would then give the Celtics a 16M trade exception. Gordon is an okay starter with versatile defense, great athletism and a willing passer.

The other target could be Vucevic (adding Ennis as filler works). Other than Hayward, Orlando could also have interest in Enes Kanter as a one-year-starting-center alongside defensive specialist Isaac. In that way Bamba can ripen for another year as a back-up without too much responsibilities. Then Aminu comes in the picture again (Vucevic+Aminu for Hayward+Kanter as basics).

Washington Wizards: Bradley Beal (+ possibly Ish Smith for room for assets)

This one seems far-fetched. I'm surprised that Beal is still in Washington, which probably means they're asking a lot in return. So the Celtics need to add some significant assets (perhaps include Ish Smith to provide the room to add those assets into the deal) and then I still think other teams will offer more. Also no clue what the Wizards would want with Hayward or if they can find a 3rd team to take on Hayward (would the Celtics agree on a deal that facilitates the 76ers getting Hayward for Horford?).

Chicago Bulls: Otto Porter or Zach LaVine + Thaddeus Young or Zach LaVine + Lauri Markkanen + Luke Kornet

Lots of rumours about the Bulls. They seem very ambitious and on the other hand LaVine might want to leave for a better place. The simple option here is Porter for Hayward, where the biggest objection is Porter's health. When healthy he's a prototype consistent low usage 3-and-D player.

It's easy to immediately shoot off any deal involving LaVine. But there are pros: LaVine is a good 3-way-scorer. LaVine was able to coexist next to Wiggins and Towns as a 3rd option. For a 25-5-4 guy, LaVine will be relatively cheap on the market. Options here are to take on Thad Young, who's a known capable role player or go for Markkanen (+ Kornet as filler). Maybe the Bulls have doubts about re-signing Markkanen. Anyway LaVine+Markkanen would cost the Celtics (expendable?) assets.

New York Knicks: Julius Randle or Bobby Portis (team option) (+ possibly some filler)

Randle has two years left on his contract and was disappointing as the 1st option in New York, but he was quite good in LA and New Orleans as a 3rd option (behind Ingram/Kuzma and Davis/Holiday respectively). Could Randle fit in the Celtics squad? Or how about Portis? He's a decent player as long as he doesn't punches teammates into the hospital.

Not sure if New York can absorb a part of Hayward's salary. Otherwise Taj Gibson, Elfrid Payton, Wayne Ellington, Frank Ntilikina and Dennis Smith Jr are all players with one-year-contracts left whom can function as filler.

Cleveland Cavaliers: Andre Drummond

I doubt there will be much interest in Drummond, but he's a consistent 15/15 center. On defense he gets steals and he's very athletic. Only one-year contract. Maybe include Poirier into the deal with some assets coming our way? Anyway not sure what Cleveland wants. Rookies haven't panned out and they still have Love. Pair Hayward and Love? Ship both guys to a 3rd team like Philadelphia???

Atlanta Hawks: Clint Capela

The Hawks have cap space to obtain Hayward, who can be the ball handler when Trae Young sits. With Hayward it's possible for the Hawks to make the playoffs. Capela can be the new starting center for the Celtics. Settling for Dedmon instead of Capela would be a no-go for me.

Denver Nuggets: Gary Harris + Jerami Grant

Finally Denver get their solution for the SF spot which they've been searching for years. Barton can go back to his natural SG-position and Porter Jr is the longterm-solution at PF. Hayward would probably be the second best player in Denver behind Jokic. I can definitely see the Nuggets having an interest here. The Celtics gets two good rotation players, who know their roles.

Utah Jazz: Rudy Gobert + Georges Niang

How much friction is there between Mitchell and Gobert? Lots of speculation whether Gobert can become available for trade. I'd love to see Gobert anchor the Celtics defense and Niang is a nice 3-point-specialist, on the other hand I don't think they want Hayward back in Utah after he left them. But the NBA is a strange place. Perhaps also bring them back Kanter and add Ed Davis as well in the deal (Gobert+Davis for Hayward+Kanter).

Oklahoma City Thunder: Steven Adams

This one is very straightforward. OKC have a hole at the SF position and they can re-sign Noel to become their starting center. The Celtics have Theis currently as starting center, but Adams would be an upgrade for the bigs rotation and with his screens and paint presence he can add a lot of power.

Dallas Mavericks: Tim Hardaway Jr (picks up PO) + Delon Wright

The Mavericks will be looking for a 3rd star to play with Doncic and Porzingis. While Hayward isn't a big star he might be the best Dallas can get for now. Unfortunately Hardaway Jr is the most logical trading piece, which doesn't make a lot of sense for either Dallas or Boston I think. I do believe Wright would be a player Celtics' fans would appreciate.

Instead of Hardaway+Wright, it could also be Hardaway+Kleber+Marjanovic. It would give the Celtics a starting PF, but Dallas might really like cost-controlled Maxi Kleber. There are more complicated constructions with Dwight Powell and Justin Jackson in the mix, but the Celtics don't want to add a ton of extra players (feel free to experiment ;)).

Memphis Grizzlies: Gorgui Dieng/Jonas Valanciunas + Justise Winslow

Who would have thought that the Grizzlies would be at a playoff spot in the west? I didn't. Morant-Brooks-Clarke-Jackson Jr form a great young core. Obtaining a borderline All Star in Hayward to add to that team for the time being might be a good move. Hayward is an easy fit on many teams anyway. Obviously the Celtics would prefer Valanciunas who is a very good player, but Dieng isn't terrible either and his overpaid contract is for just one season. It would be funny to have Winslow (team option) in Boston at last ;D. In case of Dieng+Winslow I feel Memphis should be adding value to close a deal.

Portland Trailblazers: CJ McCollum (+ possibly Nassir Little)

Unlikely for the Celtics to target McCollum, since a pairing of Walker/McCollum would make a very small and a very expensive backcourt. Also the Blazers seem to be content with McCollum. But if you're a fan of McCollum he's a possible trading option. If the Blazers don't want to extend Whiteside they may have interest in Kanter as back-up for Nurkic, in that case I'd like the Celtics to take a chance on Nassir Little.

San Antonio Spurs: DeMar DeRozan or Rudy Gay + Patty Mills or LaMarcus Aldridge + Derrick White

Based on salary matching the Spurs are very suitable to do business with. Three options, 1. DeRozan (good player, not a great fit, but valuewise a nice replacement for Hayward?), 2. Gay + Mills (one-year-deals to add veteran bench scoring, needs incentives from SAS), 3. Aldridge + White (one-year of good production with Aldridge and a good back-up PG). San Antonio would be a great destination for Hayward.
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Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2020, 06:50:12 PM »

Online gouki88

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My issue with most Hayward trade ideas are either that weíre trading dollars for dimes (Julius Randle) which doesnít make sense this close to contention, or we trade for a guy who wouldnít fit (e.g. DeRozan).

I love what Hayward brings, so Iím always much more against trading him than most, but there are some ideas here that would be too hard to resist. Nabbing Markannen would be hard to resist, as would Beal, but Iím not sure how realistic those kinds of moves are.

I just think his value isnít really set until his contract is renegotiated. Heís a fringe All-Star player on a max deal who is best as a ceiling raiser for other guys.

Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2020, 08:21:06 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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With all due respect, 3 objections on my part:

- Haven't put down the numbers, but I'm pretty sure many of these deals don't help us avoid the tax (which is supposedly the reason why we should trade Hayward).

- We don't know the final cap figures yet. It's possible that the tax line will end up lower than $132.6 million.

- Going by the 3rd and 4th assumptions in the OP, the C's would have more players+incoming picks than roster spots. If we trade Hayward for multiple players, things are only gonna get worse.

Imo, Hayward has been our 3rd best player this season (possibly 2nd best for the remaining games due to Kemba's injury situation). I can't think of a realistic scenario in which I'd like us to trade him.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 09:01:52 PM by Jvalin »

Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2020, 08:24:17 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I feel Kanter will opt out and try FA. I'd go after
John Collins + Dedmon
for
Hayward + all three 1st round picks this year.

Hawks may target Giannis, if so Young, Huerter, and Hawyard spread the court for him Capela takes the big defense roll. That's a good sell.
 
C's give Collins a Brown level extension and Tatum his max extension.

Starters
Walker, Brown, Tatum, Collins, Theis

Main Bench
Smart, Langford, Semi, Williams, Dedmon

Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2020, 08:29:18 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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With all due respect, 3 objections on my part:

- Haven't put down the numbers, but I'm pretty sure many of these deals don't help us avoid the tax (which is supposedly the reason why we should trade Hayward).

- We don't know the final cap figures yet. It's possible that the tax line will end up lower than $132.6 million.

- We have more players+incoming picks than roster spots. If we trade Hayward for multiple players, things are only gonna get worse.

Imo, Hayward is our 3rd best player this season (possibly 2nd best for the remaining games due to Kemba's injury situation). I can't think of a realistic scenario in which I'd like us to trade him.
Hawks deal he listed puts team under by a good amount. Hawks will have cap space to absorb or sign a max player. And if they go for someone like Hayward it allows a kind of roll over in cap space.

Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2020, 06:28:01 AM »

Offline Birdman

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No one gotta take on Hayward salary
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2020, 10:03:12 AM »

Offline RodyTur10

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No one gotta take on Hayward salary.

It's only for a year.

Orlando (Gordon+Aminu), Chicago (Porter or Lavine+Young), Denver (Harris+Grant), Oklahoma City (Adams), Memphis (Winslow+Dieng) and San Antonio (DeRozan or Mills+Gay) are teams that we certainly could make a trade with if we wanted to.

The point here is that you get the order by the owners to keep the Celtics out of the luxury tax next season.

To do that it's practically impossible to keep that 6-man-core of Walker, Smart, Brown, Tatum, Hayward and Theis. You'd even have to trade Langford, Grant Williams and Robert Williams to shred every salary you can.

The Celtics image would look bad if we traded free agent signing Kemba Walker after just one year (I wouldn't be totally against it, but good luck trying to get fair value for a 30-year old PG on a maximum 3-year contract with serious knee concerns at a league overall stacked position). Smart is the leader of this team and on a good contract, easily tradeable but too important i.m.o. to trade for a non-All Star. Tatum is a no-go, unless it's for a superstar and then you'd take on even more salary (very complicated). You can trade Theis on his bargain contract, but you need to trade Kanter as well and probably a 3rd and 4th guy (Poirier and Langford?) without taking any salary back and will leave you're center position quite thin (just Timelord, Grant Williams, late first pick, Fall).

The last option not talked about is Jaylen Brown. Indiana (Sabonis or Turner), Atlanta (Collins or Capela), Brooklyn (Levert), Orlando (Isaac), Detroit (Wood S+T) or Memphis (Jackson Jr) are possible destinations. The problem can be is that you're not only getting worse next year, but also lowering the ceiling of the future (which you really don't want). Therefore I assume that there are not looking to trade Brown either.

Thus it's your job to find the best possible trade for Hayward that avoids the luxury tax next season.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 10:47:16 AM by RodyTur10 »
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Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2020, 10:30:50 AM »

Offline RodyTur10

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With all due respect, 3 objections on my part:

- Haven't put down the numbers, but I'm pretty sure many of these deals don't help us avoid the tax (which is supposedly the reason why we should trade Hayward).

In most of these cases also Kanter (and/or Poirier/Green) need to go as well (in possibly another salary dump). But just lowering that payroll with $5-7M via a Hayward-trade will take us a long way towards that tax cap. 

Quote
- We don't know the final cap figures yet. It's possible that the tax line will end up lower than $132.6 million.

This is true, until we hear the final cap ruling we'll have to assume that the latest information about a stable cap is correct.

Quote
- Going by the 3rd and 4th assumptions in the OP, the C's would have more players+incoming picks than roster spots. If we trade Hayward for multiple players, things are only gonna get worse.

Yes, that's why I have been careful to make these trades as simple as possible. In these multi-player-deals often a Celtics player (Kanter, Poirier, Green, Edwards or picks) can be included to avoid this. In general unless we stash all our picks, we need to make some small trades to address the roster logjam.

Quote
Imo, Hayward has been our 3rd best player this season (possibly 2nd best for the remaining games due to Kemba's injury situation). I can't think of a realistic scenario in which I'd like us to trade him.

I wouldn't like to trade him as well. Hayward is comfortably a top 50 player and while he probably never reaches that one-year Utah peak again, he's a one of the most rounded players in the league.

Best outcome is that we renegotiate a multi-year-contract like 70/3. But sometimes agents or players are unreasonable (remember Noel turning down 70/4, when Dallas wanted to re-sign him?), so in this scenario I assume there's no agreement and then the Celtics make the decision to trade Hayward for cap relief (and saving potentially a lot of money on future repeater taxes).

Would you rather trade Walker, Smart, Brown or Tatum?

Another way to go is getting (at least) Theis, Kanter, Langford and Poirier of the roster. On second thoughts that might not be a terrible solution either. For bigs we then have Timelord, Grant Williams, Fall on a minimum + any rookie(s) we draft in October.

If anyone wants to respond to this post, maybe best to continue this in another topic I made: https://forum.celticsstrong.com/index.php?topic=102664.0, and keep this topic focussing purely on possible Hayward-deals. Thank you.
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Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2020, 10:49:56 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I am all for trading Hayward if we get back a legitimate starting quality big.  It would help balance our roster and allow us considerably more match up flexibility to go up against bigger teams.  So from our point of view, sure, but what I can't see is what would another team need to be looking for to want Hayward?

A veteran team looking for one more good piece to "put them over the top"?  That may be fine but that type of team is not going to give back a rotation player.  A rebuilding team?  Hayward is just not good enough to be that key leader that a bunch of good young players can coalesce around.

If there was team that had a surplus of bigs and needed to balance their roster, sure (but none come to mind).  Or a team that isn't really going anywhere with their roster anyway and may want to shake things up.  So to me that means guys like Blake Griffin or Andre Drummond.

These don't help us with the salary cap constraints but I think would help us win now.

Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2020, 11:40:01 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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If you want another cap saving option with a potential move up the draft board an option may be

Wolves and C's trade
James Johnson, filler and Nets pick (15)
for
Hayward and C's pick (26)

Wolves need a good wing as they are likely to take a guard with their top pick. C's could save up to 15 to 18 million and give the team a nice draft pick.

I myself would then pursue a second move

Magic and C's trade
Johnson with Grizz + Bucks pick
for
Aaron Gordon.

If the cap is only partially adjusted as in salary drop is conditioned for a two year drop. You should be close to under the tax. Flip Edwards and VP for 2nds to get under if necessary.

Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2020, 01:18:35 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I am all for trading Hayward if we get back a legitimate starting quality big.  It would help balance our roster and allow us considerably more match up flexibility to go up against bigger teams.  So from our point of view, sure, but what I can't see is what would another team need to be looking for to want Hayward?

A veteran team looking for one more good piece to "put them over the top"?  That may be fine but that type of team is not going to give back a rotation player.  A rebuilding team?  Hayward is just not good enough to be that key leader that a bunch of good young players can coalesce around.

If there was team that had a surplus of bigs and needed to balance their roster, sure (but none come to mind).  Or a team that isn't really going anywhere with their roster anyway and may want to shake things up.  So to me that means guys like Blake Griffin or Andre Drummond.

These don't help us with the salary cap constraints but I think would help us win now.

I've mentioned them before in 'trade Hayward' threads (and the OP did a better job laying out specific scenarios), but the Magic and Pacers are both teams that have a surplus of bigs, making the right amount of money, and looking to take the next step in their development. Hayward would be a perfect veteran leader in each of these locker rooms without stepping on the toes of their younger stars. A deal where we got back Myles Turner or Aaron Gordon would be a win in my book if Hayward isn't willing to negotiate a new contract. These players still offer future potential at a position of need.

Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2020, 02:57:35 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

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Send him back to Indiana and send us Myles Turner and TJ Warren

Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2020, 03:41:47 PM »

Online gouki88

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I am all for trading Hayward if we get back a legitimate starting quality big.  It would help balance our roster and allow us considerably more match up flexibility to go up against bigger teams.  So from our point of view, sure, but what I can't see is what would another team need to be looking for to want Hayward?

A veteran team looking for one more good piece to "put them over the top"?  That may be fine but that type of team is not going to give back a rotation player.  A rebuilding team?  Hayward is just not good enough to be that key leader that a bunch of good young players can coalesce around.

If there was team that had a surplus of bigs and needed to balance their roster, sure (but none come to mind).  Or a team that isn't really going anywhere with their roster anyway and may want to shake things up.  So to me that means guys like Blake Griffin or Andre Drummond.

These don't help us with the salary cap constraints but I think would help us win now.

I've mentioned them before in 'trade Hayward' threads (and the OP did a better job laying out specific scenarios), but the Magic and Pacers are both teams that have a surplus of bigs, making the right amount of money, and looking to take the next step in their development. Hayward would be a perfect veteran leader in each of these locker rooms without stepping on the toes of their younger stars. A deal where we got back Myles Turner or Aaron Gordon would be a win in my book if Hayward isn't willing to negotiate a new contract. These players still offer future potential at a position of need.
Aaron Gordon? No thank you. He's certainly not a big, and he has no idea what is best for him on offence

Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2020, 05:05:50 PM »

Offline pearljammer10

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My favorite is for Myles Turner even though Hayward is lengths and miles beyond him as a player. Myles fits out center position and system perfectly but I don't think I give Hayward up for him.

Respect for putting so much time and thought into these ideas but unfortunately Hayward isn't going anywhere.

I like what Hayward brings to the table. He hasn't been max worthy but he has been hurt, rehabbing, and he has also had to share the spotlight with so many other emerging talents.

I fully expect Hayward and Danny to come to a reasonable, non-max deal to keep him a Celtic and pair him with Brad til he retires.

Re: Mandatory Gordon Hayward trade (your ideas)
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2020, 05:10:33 PM »

Online gouki88

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My favorite is for Myles Turner even though Hayward is lengths and miles beyond him as a player. Myles fits out center position and system perfectly but I don't think I give Hayward up for him.

Respect for putting so much time and thought into these ideas but unfortunately Hayward isn't going anywhere.

I like what Hayward brings to the table. He hasn't been max worthy but he has been hurt, rehabbing, and he has also had to share the spotlight with so many other emerging talents.

I fully expect Hayward and Danny to come to a reasonable, non-max deal to keep him a Celtic and pair him with Brad til he retires.
Ha, that made me chuckle, however unintentional.

I would love to see a 4/80 type contract for Gordy