Hypothetical Bias & Lewis or Tatum & Brown for 10+ years?

[JBcat]

With all the craziness going on in the world I thought this would be a fun topic to project and dream about how both of these duos would do.

We’ve seen Lewis play up until age 27 being a smooth 20 PPG scorer with solid D all star.  Bias is an enigma as we never saw him play in the pros.  He’s the biggest question mark in this discussion.  I believe coach K once said Bias and and Jordan were the 2 best players to ever come out of the ACC.  Bias had a smooth jumper, and a ready NBA made body that was explosive.  He could have ended up being one of the all time greats but we never got to see it.

We all know about Tatum and Brown, and that’s what I’m leaning towards ever so slightly, but I could be persuaded to go the way.

[GreenFaith1819]

Well, at WORST Reggie Lewis would've made numerous All-Star games, I believe. He also would've been a dogged defender against Michael Jordan, once blocking his shot FOUR TIMES in one game.

IIRC Reggie ALSO scored 30 points in that same game, along with Larry.

As for Bias?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqvUeJnDtOQ

We unfortunately will NEVER know for sure how good Bias would've been but Larry Legend would've exited EARLY if he remained alive.

I think that says a lot.

Now "IF" Larry Legend retires in 1988, then we do not get THIS



Could Bias have taken Larry's place? As good as I believe Bias "Would've" been I doubt he'd be THAT GOOD to make Team USA and sit next to Michael and Magic in four years time...he'd probably be in his Prime Years by 93-97....

I'm not sure how good the REMAINDER of a Reggie-Lenny team would've been...Chief was on his way to retirement, McHale was on bad wheels by 1987 and Bill Walton - bless his heart - was ONLY great for us in 1986.

Dennis Johnson was getting older...who would've replaced him at PG? And what about Danny? Reggie played the same spot as him...

Fast forward to NOW? I see greatness in JB and Jayson. They DO remind me of the "Could've Would've Should'ves" of Reggie-Lenny.

They ALSO have a BETTER team around them going forward, with Gordon Hayward, Smart, Theis and Kemba.

Kemba Walker and GH have been All-Stars and GH is just about back to his 2016-17 levels.

Bias was dominating in College before we drafted him...Tatum? While a great player for Duke I don't think he had QUITE the buzz coming out as Bias did...but it was close.

In short I see a wider window of banners for JB and Jayson, with the talent level between the twosomes being VERY close..

Lewis and Lenny would've had to depend on Red do some miracle manuevering to get a good PF, C and PG to replace DJ, Chief and McHale....this would be daunting, I'd guess.



Loving things going forward for BOS.

Keep Hayward, get Kemba healthy and just let Marcus run loose and we have just about as good a shot as ANY team currently.

EDIT - I voted Jaylen and Jayson going forward.

[Surferdad]

I voted Bias/Lewis first without hesitation or reading the thread.  Those of us who remember Reggie Lewis as a Celtic saw the greatness.  Len Bias was probably going to be even better than Lewis. 

Now I'll read the thread.

[Moranis]

This is easy.  Tatum/Brown.  Without hesitation or question.  Tatum has the most top end potential of any of those players, yes including Bias.  Tatum and Brown, both, and already, have provided similar production to what Lewis was doing at his prime (21/4/4 with solid defense). 

[jbpats]

Voted Bias/Lewis simply because Reggie is my favorite Celtics player ever.

This is hard to say because we had no idea what Bias would have become, if the hype was true he was slated to be the next great player but more often then not that falls through. Reggie obviously showed he was developing into being a perennial all star, leader of the C's, like Tatum.. so i guess it's a matter of if you think Bias would have surpassed Jaylen.

[nickagneta]

Saw Bias play at least 10 games his last two years at Maryland. The kid was an absolute stud. Every game I saw him play in the tournament his last two years, he was a man amongst boys. Just dominant. Unfortunately, there was very little talent on the squads other than Bias.

At 21 years of age, he was the best player of the 4 at that age. Sorry, as good as Tatum was last year, I think Bias at that age was the better player.

I would go with Bias and Reggie with the caveat that I think the difference in the duos is razor thin.

[Roy H.]

Reggie / Bias.  If anything, I think that Bias could have extended Larry’s career, and I think we would have hung one or two more banners at least. 

Plus, I think that we would have prevented MJ from at least one title, probably more, meaning that he would not universally be considered the best player ever. 

[GreenFaith1819]

Provided that Bias would've been alive and Reggie would've continued to grow, can anyone here imagine that late 80s - early 90s Celtics Teams??

I'd prefer that Larry play at LEAST one season with Bias to give him a great start next to one of the greatest players of all time.

"IF" Red could've convinced Larry to stay the narrative versus LAL in the late 80s and DET as well could've been VERY different....

McHale was STILL an All-Star late into the 80s, right? And Chief was still a very capable center?

Provided that Larry stayed he could've played some PF to spell McHale's knees and ankles...

Imagine THIS lineup

C - Chief
PF - Larry
SF - Lenny
SG - Reggie
PG - DJ

That lineup spells McHale and Danny.

That is a DEEP team....and provided that Bias could've hit the deckplates running we would've RAN LAL out of most games.

Michael Cooper would've had his hands full with not ONLY Larry but Bias AND Lewis.

[tenn_smoothie]

Provided that Bias would've been alive and Reggie would've continued to grow, can anyone here imagine that late 80s - early 90s Celtics Teams??

I'd prefer that Larry play at LEAST one season with Bias to give him a great start next to one of the greatest players of all time.

"IF" Red could've convinced Larry to stay the narrative versus LAL in the late 80s and DET as well could've been VERY different....

McHale was STILL an All-Star late into the 80s, right? And Chief was still a very capable center?

Provided that Larry stayed he could've played some PF to spell McHale's knees and ankles...

Imagine THIS lineup

C - Chief
PF - Larry
SF - Lenny
SG - Reggie
PG - DJ

That lineup spells McHale and Danny.

That is a DEEP team....and provided that Bias could've hit the deckplates running we would've RAN LAL out of most games.

Michael Cooper would've had his hands full with not ONLY Larry but Bias AND Lewis.

I've thought the same exact thing as you laid out here and to this day, it makes me angry and sad all over again.

I would have liked Larry to have stayed on thru '92, which he could have done productively with the extra rest of a deep team and if he had the good sense not to dig his own post holes back home in Indiana.

I sometimes wonder if God grew tired of Red continuing to out-smart the rest of the league and of the Celtics continuing to win titles.

[GreenFaith1819]

Provided that Bias would've been alive and Reggie would've continued to grow, can anyone here imagine that late 80s - early 90s Celtics Teams??

I'd prefer that Larry play at LEAST one season with Bias to give him a great start next to one of the greatest players of all time.

"IF" Red could've convinced Larry to stay the narrative versus LAL in the late 80s and DET as well could've been VERY different....

McHale was STILL an All-Star late into the 80s, right? And Chief was still a very capable center?

Provided that Larry stayed he could've played some PF to spell McHale's knees and ankles...

Imagine THIS lineup

C - Chief
PF - Larry
SF - Lenny
SG - Reggie
PG - DJ

That lineup spells McHale and Danny.

That is a DEEP team....and provided that Bias could've hit the deckplates running we would've RAN LAL out of most games.

Michael Cooper would've had his hands full with not ONLY Larry but Bias AND Lewis.

I've thought the same exact thing as you laid out here and to this day, it makes me angry and sad all over again.

I would have liked Larry to have stayed on thru '92, which he could have done productively with the extra rest of a deep team and if he had the good sense not to dig his own post holes back home in Indiana.

I sometimes wonder if God grew tired of Red continuing to out-smart the rest of the league and of the Celtics continuing to win titles.

Maybe.

But then God gave Danny some Auerbachian traits as well for his snagging of Tatum from PHI.

"THAT" was a slick move and I'd bet Red winked at Danny from above.

[GreenShooter]

That is not photo-shopped. That is just sick.

[Moranis]

Saw Bias play at least 10 games his last two years at Maryland. The kid was an absolute stud. Every game I saw him play in the tournament his last two years, he was a man amongst boys. Just dominant. Unfortunately, there was very little talent on the squads other than Bias.

At 21 years of age, he was the best player of the 4 at that age. Sorry, as good as Tatum was last year, I think Bias at that age was the better player.

I would go with Bias and Reggie with the caveat that I think the difference in the duos is razor thin.

I didn't watch any Maryland basketball during this time, but Bias' senior year he played 37 mpg and averaged 23.2 ppg, 7 rpg, 1 apg, 0.8 spg, 0.4 bpg, 2.8 tpg with a 61.3 TS%.  Maryland was 19-14 that year and made the 2nd round (so it wasn't like Bias had them rolling).

Jayson Tatum in his 3rd year in the NBA, which would have been his senior year played 34.8 mpg and averaged 23.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 2.9 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.2 tpg with a 56.2 TS% doing so as the best player on one of the better teams in the world (If you want to call him 2nd best player to Walker I'm not going to nitpick). 

Now I get it was a different era, but Tatum's competition far exceeded what Bias faced at Maryland and he outperformed him basically across the board.  I don't see how anyone could claim that Bias was better than Tatum 4 years removed from high school.  Now if you wanted to argue that Bias had a higher ceiling, I'd listen to arguments on that, though I just don't see it. If all 4 of those players reached their absolute best case scenarios I'd rank them Tatum, Bias, Brown, and Lewis.  As much as we all love Reggie, I think you could argue with a straight face that Tatum and Brown are both already better than him and Lewis was far enough into his career he wasn't going to get appreciably better while Tatum and Brown both should.

[Roy H.]

Saw Bias play at least 10 games his last two years at Maryland. The kid was an absolute stud. Every game I saw him play in the tournament his last two years, he was a man amongst boys. Just dominant. Unfortunately, there was very little talent on the squads other than Bias.

At 21 years of age, he was the best player of the 4 at that age. Sorry, as good as Tatum was last year, I think Bias at that age was the better player.

I would go with Bias and Reggie with the caveat that I think the difference in the duos is razor thin.

I didn't watch any Maryland basketball during this time, but Bias' senior year he played 37 mpg and averaged 23.2 ppg, 7 rpg, 1 apg, 0.8 spg, 0.4 bpg, 2.8 tpg with a 61.3 TS%.  Maryland was 19-14 that year and made the 2nd round (so it wasn't like Bias had them rolling).

Jayson Tatum in his 3rd year in the NBA, which would have been his senior year played 34.8 mpg and averaged 23.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 2.9 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.2 tpg with a 56.2 TS% doing so as the best player on one of the better teams in the world (If you want to call him 2nd best player to Walker I'm not going to nitpick). 

Now I get it was a different era, but Tatum's competition far exceeded what Bias faced at Maryland and he outperformed him basically across the board.  I don't see how anyone could claim that Bias was better than Tatum 4 years removed from high school.  Now if you wanted to argue that Bias had a higher ceiling, I'd listen to arguments on that, though I just don't see it. If all 4 of those players reached their absolute best case scenarios I'd rank them Tatum, Bias, Brown, and Lewis.  As much as we all love Reggie, I think you could argue with a straight face that Tatum and Brown are both already better than him and Lewis was far enough into his career he wasn't going to get appreciably better while Tatum and Brown both should.

Comparisons between college and the NBA just don’t work.  As a junior, Michael Jordan averaged 20 / 5 / 2.  As a rookie he was up to 28 / 6 / 6. 

I mean, do you buy this?  In what would have been his sophomore year, Tyreke Evans averaged 20 / 6 / 6 in the NBA.  That’s better than the college sophomore stats of Michael Jordan, Isiah Thomas, Chris Paul etc., despite playing against greater competition.

[hpantazo]

I love Tatum and Brown, they are going to be amazing for years to come, BUT, I think some of you guys are totally underrating Bias and Lewis on here.

[Moranis]

Saw Bias play at least 10 games his last two years at Maryland. The kid was an absolute stud. Every game I saw him play in the tournament his last two years, he was a man amongst boys. Just dominant. Unfortunately, there was very little talent on the squads other than Bias.

At 21 years of age, he was the best player of the 4 at that age. Sorry, as good as Tatum was last year, I think Bias at that age was the better player.

I would go with Bias and Reggie with the caveat that I think the difference in the duos is razor thin.

I didn't watch any Maryland basketball during this time, but Bias' senior year he played 37 mpg and averaged 23.2 ppg, 7 rpg, 1 apg, 0.8 spg, 0.4 bpg, 2.8 tpg with a 61.3 TS%.  Maryland was 19-14 that year and made the 2nd round (so it wasn't like Bias had them rolling).

Jayson Tatum in his 3rd year in the NBA, which would have been his senior year played 34.8 mpg and averaged 23.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 2.9 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.2 tpg with a 56.2 TS% doing so as the best player on one of the better teams in the world (If you want to call him 2nd best player to Walker I'm not going to nitpick). 

Now I get it was a different era, but Tatum's competition far exceeded what Bias faced at Maryland and he outperformed him basically across the board.  I don't see how anyone could claim that Bias was better than Tatum 4 years removed from high school.  Now if you wanted to argue that Bias had a higher ceiling, I'd listen to arguments on that, though I just don't see it. If all 4 of those players reached their absolute best case scenarios I'd rank them Tatum, Bias, Brown, and Lewis.  As much as we all love Reggie, I think you could argue with a straight face that Tatum and Brown are both already better than him and Lewis was far enough into his career he wasn't going to get appreciably better while Tatum and Brown both should.

Comparisons between college and the NBA just don’t work.  As a junior, Michael Jordan averaged 20 / 5 / 2.  As a rookie he was up to 28 / 6 / 6. 

I mean, do you buy this?  In what would have been his sophomore year, Tyreke Evans averaged 20 / 6 / 6 in the NBA.  That’s better than the college sophomore stats of Michael Jordan, Isiah Thomas, Chris Paul etc., despite playing against greater competition.

Maryland wasn't very good though (they were with Adrian Branch (a NBAer), but when he graduated they fell off considerably).  It is very rare that a player who can't lead a team to a bunch of wins in college ends up being an all time great.  It is sort of an empty stat type of thing.  Jordan was on a team that 28-3 and he played with three other NBA players including a #1 pick.  If Bias was really destined for greatness, on that Maryland team, Bias should have been shooting more than 15 a night (especially given he played 37 mpg) and they should have been winning a lot more games (while he was a freshman, that team also had Tony Massenburg on it who played 683 games in the NBA).   Bias always struck me as an uber athlete that could do well as a man amongst boys, but I'm not really sure how well he would have transitioned to the pros.  I'm sure he would have been a good player, maybe even a HOFer (like a Pierce type player), but I'm not so sure he would have been one of those truly special players that so many think he could have been.  I think Tatum can be a truly special player.