Author Topic: Daniel Theis made for Celtics  (Read 2816 times)

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Re: Daniel Theis made for Celtics
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2020, 10:48:28 AM »

Online Hoopvortex

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What is the prognosis for Williams - is the hip fully healed, is it the type of condition that is going to be a recurring problem ?

Great question with no obvious answer. He had a transient osteoporosis, i.e., he didn’t just fall hard or break a bone. Is it likely that that would just appear one day and then disappear again, never to return? No.

I wouldn’t bet on him having a long career, or coming close to fulfilling his considerable potential. But there isn’t much precedent for someone with his weird physiology playing ball at this high a level.

Is it related to his PAIS? If so, there might be reason for optimism. Better muscle balance across the knee joints could result in decreased impingement and better local circulation - perhaps that would solve the bone issue.

Thanks for addressing my question - but what is the actual problem in layman's terms ?

It’s bone density loss in his femurs, which are the thighbones. I cannot tell from the reports which end of the bone the condition is found in him. If it is on the knee end of the bone, it is tempting to connect the condition with his previously diagnosed condition of popliteal artery impingement syndrome.


Is it an injury that occurred in a game or practice that caused damage ?
Or, Is it a tissue-deterioration type condition ?

1) No. The injury itself did not occur in a game or as the result of an impact. This condition is not common and not well understood. It tends to spontaneously resolve and disappear – though it also will predictably recur, though that might be years in the future.

2) On the other hand, it doesn’t look as though there’s a long-term issue with tissue deterioration. Having said that, he is a high performance athlete.

It is worth noting that he has a previously diagnosed condition, called PAIS, or Popliteal artery impingement syndrome, which if I recall correctly he’s got in both knees. That’s a kind of a mechanical condition where a major artery supplying the lower legs gets squeezed, reducing blood flow. This condition is most common among active males in his age group, and tends to resolve as the person gets older. So there’s that.


What is the treatment and did we know he had this issue before we drafted him ?

1) I don’t know what they were doing for treatment. The causes of the condition are a mystery, and the condition is uncommon - so the treatment is inevitably trial and error. He was likely eliminating high impact movements and possibly getting a med like Fosamax to boost the calcium content in bones, plus Vitamin D.

2) No. It seems to be new and wasn’t diagnosed before this season. Everyone knew about the PAIS, so this was already a low floor/high ceiling pick for sure.

I think it was a gamble that was worth making. I’m on the pessimistic side about his future, but he certainly still has a chance to be a difference maker. The combination of feel for the game and athleticism hasn’t gone away.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 03:21:08 PM by Hoopvortex »
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Re: Daniel Theis made for Celtics
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2020, 02:42:03 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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Bump.

I just saw this interesting article on Theis and his use in the short roll game. Enjoy and discuss.

"So it’s no surprise to see that among the 28 bigs who have scored or shot or assisted on at least 500 possessions this season, Theis ranks fifth in points per possession and fourth in assist to turnover ratio. That latter group consists of Al Horford, Nikola Vucevic and Nikola Jokic, the league’s best short roll playmakers. He’s even one spot ahead of Bam Adebayo in that category, who became an All-Star mostly because of his work in the short roll this season. Theis doesn’t have the great finishing capability these other current or former All-Stars do, but clearly he is playmaking at a near All-Star level."

https://theathletic.com/1892023/2020/06/25/celtics-playbook-series-daniel-theis-is-mastering-the-11-short-roll/?source=dailyemail
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Re: Daniel Theis made for Celtics
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2020, 06:29:51 PM »

Offline tstorey_97

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The reason Theis is a home run for the Celtics?

He is on the floor with a $120M lineup. There is no $ for an expensive center. Thus, the Celtics need the best value there is at the position.

Tada!

Theis in his last ten games-

MPG - 28
PPG - 13.9
Blk - 1
Ast - 1.8
Reb - 8.1
FT% - 89%
3pt - 46%
FG - 62.7%

Where ya gonna get that for subway change?

Re: Daniel Theis made for Celtics
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2020, 04:27:36 AM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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What is the prognosis for Williams - is the hip fully healed, is it the type of condition that is going to be a recurring problem ?

Great question with no obvious answer. He had a transient osteoporosis, i.e., he didn’t just fall hard or break a bone. Is it likely that that would just appear one day and then disappear again, never to return? No.

I wouldn’t bet on him having a long career, or coming close to fulfilling his considerable potential. But there isn’t much precedent for someone with his weird physiology playing ball at this high a level.

Is it related to his PAIS? If so, there might be reason for optimism. Better muscle balance across the knee joints could result in decreased impingement and better local circulation - perhaps that would solve the bone issue.

Thank You for your response.

Could you explain in layman's term what a transient osteoporosis is ? Compare it to something similar but more common ? Is it a hereditary/genetic condition that is aggravated by constant stress (playing basketball) on the joint/bone ? Or is it an injury - something that involved tissue damage that occurred at a specific time in practice or a game ? Is there damage to the bone that can heal ?
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Re: Daniel Theis made for Celtics
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2020, 12:03:18 AM »

Online Hoopvortex

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What is the prognosis for Williams - is the hip fully healed, is it the type of condition that is going to be a recurring problem ?

Great question with no obvious answer. He had a transient osteoporosis, i.e., he didn’t just fall hard or break a bone. Is it likely that that would just appear one day and then disappear again, never to return? No.

I wouldn’t bet on him having a long career, or coming close to fulfilling his considerable potential. But there isn’t much precedent for someone with his weird physiology playing ball at this high a level.

Is it related to his PAIS? If so, there might be reason for optimism. Better muscle balance across the knee joints could result in decreased impingement and better local circulation - perhaps that would solve the bone issue.

Thank You for your response.

Could you explain in layman's term what a transient osteoporosis is ?

A temporary loss of bone density, putting the bone at risk of catastrophic fracturing. The bone density spontaneously restores itself in this pathology, fortunately, which is what appears to have happened with him. But a recurrence seems not unlikely.

Compare it to something similar but more common ?

Osteoporosis is a common condition, mostly of people over 60. Other risk factors are: female, sedentary lifestyle, Caucasian or Asian, small stature, and smoking. In other words, about as opposite from Rob Williams as it gets.

Is it a hereditary/genetic condition that is aggravated by constant stress (playing basketball) on the joint/bone ?

Unknown.

Probably there’s a big genetic component.

He has Popliteal Artery Impingement Syndrome, which teams knew about before the draft. That appears to be a function of where an important artery that crosses the knee is located - it gets pinched, resulting in decreased circulation to the lower leg. It is also uncommon, so the obvious question is: did the PAIS cause the transient osteoporosis? Unknown.

PAIS is usually found in active young adults, but tends to go away as they age.

Or is it an injury - something that involved tissue damage that occurred at a specific time in practice or a game ?

Unlikely, given what we know about the condition. But the literature on it is scarce.

Is there damage to the bone that can heal ?

Yes, and in fact that appears to be what has happened - but as I said above, a recurrence is not unlikely.
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Re: Daniel Theis made for Celtics
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2020, 03:49:59 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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His timing on pick and roll is sublime. It is such a weapon for his teammates to use. Then add the timing of his seals as Kemba and Jason can maximize getting to hoop.
He has some elite length that is a state secret .As he found his groove with the playing time he earned he
 was blocking 1.5 shots a game and he has a Celtic motor. I have the feeling he has not reached his ceiling as he builds off timing he  also looked comfortable attacking closeouts later in season.
Maybe next season the Refs give him a break on tacky fouls.

He is good as an extra

but can't be the starting center

He can't handle Embiid, Lopez, Gasol, Jokic etc.


I wouldn't say he cant be your starter but I do agree he cant be expected to handle the bigger centers you listed.

I have been trying to figure out my ideal celtics big/big man rotation as it relates to the draft and future FAs. Short of the DA landing a star center I think its clear the Cs will be center by committee for the foreseeable future.

Ideally I like the idea of a 3 man rotation at center. Offense has little to do with this roles, in my eyes the Cs center position should largely be dictated by defense.

1. A versatile big who can play multiple types of P&R overages and most importantly can switch onto smaller players as needed.

2. A drop coverage big who can handle the larger centers in the league

3. A small ball 5 who can provide floor spacing while still keeping the team D respectable

The talent differential between player type 1 and 2 dictates how minutes are distributed. Crunch time (high leverage) minutes usually fall to player type 1 or 3.

Theis is clearly player type 1

Kanter player type 2, Baynes was a great representative of this player type and is really missed (maybe more then Horford)

R Wiliiams should be a type 1 but I'm not sold that he is there yet as a perimeter defender, he needs to stay healthy and get on court reps

G Williams is a great candidate to be the Cs type 3 big. He just needs to come around as a 3pt shooter but i think he will.

Tacko is 1000% a type 2 big


If the Cs had retained Baynes I think we would have seen Theis and Baynes each play about 20mpg and split starting duties based on match ups. I like the idea of R Williams but I'm becoming skeptical that he ever reaches his Capela like ceiling with his health issues. 

This draft might yield a few options for the future. Wiseman and Okongwu will likely be out of reach but when looking at them as positional role players.

Tillman, could be a slightly less mobile but stronger Theis like type 1 big
Achiuwa, could be a hyper athletic type 1 center who also bring elite rebounding
Reed, I question his strength but he has the skills to be a really good type 1

Azubuike, could suprise some people and carve out a nice career as a type 2 rim protector
Carey, I'm not a fan but in theory he should be a type 2 center
Stewart, he isn't as tall as I'd like for a type 2 big but he is long and really strong

This is also why I find myself lower on bigs like Toppin, Smith or Nnaji its hard to place them in a defensive role


As for small ball 5s (my type 3)

P Williams, could be a stud in this role. He isn't great on the perimeter for a forward but at Center he could be really good

 
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Wiz
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Re: Daniel Theis made for Celtics
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2020, 05:28:50 PM »

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I do love Theis, but man do I miss Baynes.  :-\
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