2020 Historic Draft: How’s My Team Look: Conference Finals winners announced!!

[Jvalin]

Would love some feedback from you guys on the LeBron trade. After all, it was hands down the biggest trade of the draft. Here is the whole picture (given that I later traded Westbrook for LaMarcus Aldridge):

LeBron + Allen + Millsap + Cliff Robinson for Kawhi + Klay + LMA + Simmons

I don’t evaluate the follow up moves as part of the deal. It was originally what, Lebron + Ray + pick (Westbrook) for Kawhi + Klay + pick (was it Millsap?)

I didn’t like it for you.  I’m actually fine with the Ray for Klay swap.  On a one season basis, Klay’s best compares fine to Ray’s best.  Defense and size versus more shot creation.

But, there’s a large chasm between Lebron and Kawhi.  We discussed this a bit via PM, but I don’t have Kawhi quite as high as you do.  He’s top-8 good, but Lebron is the best of the era.  If you trade that type of player, I think you need large upgrades elsewhere, and I wasn’t sure that you achieved that.

I drafted Westbrook with the view to trade him down the road. With this in mind, the follow up moves are definitely part of the deal. If Westbrook/D-Rose weren't available with the Philly pick, I wouldn't have pulled the trigger. Not because I like Westbrook as a player (I hate his game), but because he was a value pick in the middle of the 5th round. It was a risk on my part. Was hoping for a bigger fish than LMA, but I believe I got fair value for Westbrook.

Don't regret trading LeBron. Both him and Luka need the ball in their hands in order to maximize their effectiveness. Had to trade one of them. What I regret is that I didn't trade Bron for Shaq. The Jazz were interested in such a deal. Opted for Kawi+Klay+Westbrook, cause I absolutely love the fit of Kawhi+Klay next to Luka.

All in all, imo it was a balanced trade. Both teams got better. Philly added the best player in the draft, but had to settle for a below average starter at the wing position (Gerald Wallace). I added arguably the best 2-way player in the draft + LMA (massive upgrade at the PF position over Cliff Robinson) + Simmons (the perfect fit for my second unit).

@Nick
Kawhi missed regular season games due to load management, but he was a monster in the playoffs. At the end of the day, championships are won in the playoffs, not in the regular season.

[RodyTur10]

I didn't like the trade but I still like DAL pretty high. Felt the fit of the roster still worked and I'm not as down on Kawhi as some others may be.

I agree on that. Still liked the Dallas team. Just think he should have gotten a lot more value from the deal (now he had to trade Westbrook to get a starting PF) and I rate Ray Allen above Klay Thompson (why include him in the trade at all???).

[RPGenerate]

One outsider's view:

1. EC1 – Milwaukee Bucks
2. EC2 – Boston Celtics
3. WC1 – Utah Jazz
4. WC2 – Denver Nuggets
5. EC3 – Philadelphia 76ers
6. EC4 – Toronto Raptors
7. WC4 – Los Angeles Lakers
8. WC3 – Dallas Mavericks
9. WC5 – Los Angeles Clippers
10. EC5 – Indiana Pacers
11. EC6 – Brooklyn Nets
12. WC6 – Oklahoma City Thunder
13. EC7 – Miami Heat
14. WC7 – Houston Rockets

Pretty similar to mine, but I was a bit higher on the Clippers.

[nickagneta]

Would love some feedback from you guys on the LeBron trade. After all, it was hands down the biggest trade of the draft. Here is the whole picture (given that I later traded Westbrook for LaMarcus Aldridge):

LeBron + Allen + Millsap + Cliff Robinson for Kawhi + Klay + LMA + Simmons

I don’t evaluate the follow up moves as part of the deal.  It was originally what, Lebron + Ray + pick (Westbrook) for Kawhi + Klay + pick (was it Millsap?)

I didn’t like it for you.  I’m actually fine with the Ray for Klay swap.  On a one season basis, Klay’s best compares fine to Ray’s best.  Defense and size versus more shot creation.

But, there’s a large chasm between Lebron and Kawhi.  We discussed this a bit via PM, but I don’t have Kawhi quite as high as you do.  He’s top-8 good, but Lebron is the best of the era.  If you trade that type of player, I think you need large upgrades elsewhere, and I wasn’t sure that you achieved that.

I drafted Westbrook with the view to trade him down the road. With this in mind, the follow up moves are definitely part of the deal. If Westbrook/D-Rose weren't available with the Philly pick, I wouldn't have pulled the trigger. Not because I like Westbrook as a player (I hate his game), but because he was a value pick in the middle of the 5th round. It was a risk on my part. Was hoping for a bigger fish than LMA, but I believe I got fair value for Westbrook.

Don't regret trading LeBron. Both him and Luka need the ball in their hands in order to maximize their effectiveness. Had to trade one of them. What I regret is that I didn't trade Bron for Shaq. The Jazz were interested in such a deal. Opted for Kawi+Klay+Westbrook, cause I absolutely love the fit of Kawhi+Klay next to Luka.

All in all, imo it was a balanced trade. Both teams got better. Philly added the best player in the draft, but had to settle for a below average starter at PF (Gerald Wallace). I added arguably the best 2-way player in the draft + LMA (massive upgrade at the PF position over Cliff Robinson) + Simmons (the perfect fit for my second unit).

@Nick
Kawhi missed regular season games due to load management, but he was a monster in the playoffs. At the end of the day, championships are won in the playoffs, not in the regular season.

With only two teams in each conference making the playoffs, regular season matters!!! If your team doesn't make the playoffs, then who cares what your players did in the playoffs.

[nickagneta]

Honestly, Jvalin, I don't know why you made the trade. Lebron plays well with other superstars. He and Luka would have gotten along fabulously. Not sure why you talked yourself into thinking they couldn't coexist. So Luka has to take a back seat and be either a 1B option or #2 option. So what? He's playing with Lebron. Lebron makes his sidekicks look like all-time greats.

Think of the passing with those two in the half court. With Ray Allen to kick out to!!! That was magic waiting to happen. I would not have made the trade.

[Roy H.]

Don't regret trading LeBron. Both him and Luka need the ball in their hands in order to maximize their effectiveness.

I largely agree with the second sentence.

Had to trade one of them.

I disagree.  Lebron has played with Wade and Kyrie.  A team can handle two ball-dominant players.

I regret is that I didn't trade Bron for Shaq. The Jazz were interested in such a deal.

Was this before or after you got Doncic?  What made you prefer Kawhi over Shaq?

[Jvalin]

Honestly, Jvalin, I don't know why you made the trade. Lebron plays well with other superstars. He and Luka would have gotten along fabulously. Not sure why you talked yourself into thinking they couldn't coexist. So Luka has to take a back seat and be either a 1B option or #2 option. So what? He's playing with Lebron. Lebron makes his sidekicks look like all-time greats.

Think of the passing with those two in the half court. With Ray Allen to kick out to!!! That was magic waiting to happen. I would not have made the trade.

My first thought was to keep them both, trade up for Jokic and build the ultimate basketball IQ team! Surround them with guys like Manu (if he fell), Arvydas Sabonis, Boris Diaw etc.

Having said that, I don't think Luka and Bron would be a good fit next to each other. They would cancel each other out. No point having 2 ball dominant players in the same lineup, no matter how good they may be. I mean, what's the point in using Bron/Luka off the ball? There are plenty of catch-and-shoot specialists who are way better off-ball players than Bron and Luka.

[nickagneta]

Honestly, Jvalin, I don't know why you made the trade. Lebron plays well with other superstars. He and Luka would have gotten along fabulously. Not sure why you talked yourself into thinking they couldn't coexist. So Luka has to take a back seat and be either a 1B option or #2 option. So what? He's playing with Lebron. Lebron makes his sidekicks look like all-time greats.

Think of the passing with those two in the half court. With Ray Allen to kick out to!!! That was magic waiting to happen. I would not have made the trade.

My first thought was to keep them both, trade up for Jokic and build the ultimate basketball IQ team! Surround them with guys like Manu (if he fell), Arvydas Sabonis, Boris Diaw etc.

Having said that, I don't think Luka and Bron would be a good fit next to each other. They would cancel each other out. No point having 2 ball dominant players in the same lineup, no matter how good they may be. I mean, what's the point in using Bron/Luka off the ball? There are plenty of catch-and-shoot specialists who are way better off-ball players than Bron and Luka.

Bron played great next to Wade and Kyrie, ball dominant guys. I think two of the possible all-time greats not being able to play next to each other because they both need the ball is flawed. Bird and Magic would loved to have played next to each other. Durant and Steph won titles together.

Besides, get creative with the substitution pattern and you can have either one or both on the floor at all times without running them into the ground. Each plays 16 minutes together and 16 minutes without the other. There is no rest for the opposing defenses.

Anyway, you made the trade and are happy.....that's what matters. I just think you let a game winning opportunity slip through your fingers.

[gouki88]

Seeing all the different rankings really shows how much parity there is. So many different variations of a 13-team list.

Good work everyone

[Moranis]

Was reading some of the older posts in oder to have a solid grasp on all of the teams. Allow me to respond to a comment by gouki that I just saw.

if we redo this draft in 5 years Zion & Luka could both be top 2 round picks

If we redo this draft in 5 years, I bet Luka will be a top 3 pick.
If we had done the draft after the 2020 playoffs, I bet Luka would have been selected in the first round.

I truly believe that Luka is a GOAT candidate in the making. When all is said and done, him and Bron are gonna be considered the top 2 players in this draft.

Many NBA fans still sleep on Luka cause they haven't seen him play in do-or-die situations yet (=playoff games). Coming from Europe myself, I've seen him responding to stressful situations numerous times. I can assure you that Luka thrives under pressure! I've seen 18-year-old Luka leading tiny little Slovenia (alongside Dragic) to the gold medal in the 2017 European Championship! I've seen 19-year-old Luka leading Real Madrid to the 2018 Euroleague title while winning Regular Season and Final Four MVP honors! The Euroleague and the European Championship are no joke. Luka was just a kid and he was dominating everybody! I'm telling you guys, Luka is the real deal! He is a LeBron-Larry legend hybrid. Jordan, LeBron and Luka are the best players I've seen since I started following basketball in the mid 90s.

The way Luka runs the point is almost unparalleled for a man of his size. Imo, he's already a better floor general than LeBron. The only guy 6'7'' or taller who read the game better than Luka was Magic. Mind you, Luka is just a 21-year-old kid. He has all the time in the world to surpass Magic.

He's already considerably better than Magic at the same age, his curve rn is absolutely bonkers.

Could someone please explain to me why Luka fall in the 3rd round? This is mind-boggling to me. I mean, would 2004–2005 LeBron have fallen in the 3rd round? That was his second season in the league. He played his first playoff game in the following season (his 3rd season).

04-05 LeBron was hardly comparable to 2020 Doncic though. And Doncic was my #2 guy after Vince iirc, I was just wary of him due to his defence and lack of playoff sample size (yes he's been clutch throughout his career, but I really want to see him play against NBA playoff competition).

Fwiw, here are the stats of LeBron and Luka in their second season (both at the age of 20).

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=LeBron+James&player_id1_select=LeBron+James&y1=2005&player_id1=jamesle01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Luka+Don%C4%8Di%C4%87&player_id2_select=Luka+Don%C4%8Di%C4%87&y2=2020&player_id2=doncilu01&idx=players

Luka is the better scorer, better passer, better rebounder. He is more efficient as well (eFG%: 5.31 > 5.04). Lebron is the better defender. I get that stats are inflated in the modern era (due to faster pace), but 2005 LeBron is definitely comparable to 2020 Luka.

Not to mention, Luka was about to lead the Mavs in the playoffs in his second season. It took 3 seasons for LeBron to reach the playoffs with the Cavs.

Just like LeBron, Luka is playing winning basketball. He's not putting up empty stats.

If the 05 season had been cut short and you did this draft with the prior 20 years, then Lebron probably does go in the 3rd round.  I mean you are talking about 1985 - 2005, that includes almost the entire prime of Bird, McHale, Jordan, Pippen, Magic, Barkley, Malone, Thomas, Wilkins, Hakeem, Robinson, Payton, Stockton, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett, Ewing, English, King,  etc. and still very good (if not back end of prime) seasons from guys like Kareem, Moses, Dr. J, etc.  Lebron probably does go in the 30's, if not later, if this was done in the middle of Lebron's 2nd season. 

It isn't some travesty that a basically unproven 20 year old isn't given credit like he has already had his HOF career as you never know what can happen.  I mean Ralph Sampson looked like a monster in the making in year 2, led his team to the finals in year 3, and then got hurt in year 4 and basically disappeared.  Maybe Luka doesn't develop anymore, never really has playoff success, or just gets hurt and is never the same.  But a Luka that is in the middle of his 2nd season, in which he had already missed 13 games to injury after fading tremendously his first year and missing 10 games as a rookie, shouldn't be treated like he is a possible GOAT in this exercise.  You can't miss nearly 10% of your games, never play in the playoffs, show a propensity of fading in the stretch of seasons and somehow be given this extreme benefit of the doubt.  3rd or 4th round is probably the right place for Luka to be drafted in this sort of draft.  Talent is immense, no question, but less than 2 seasons, is still less than 2 seasons.

You just need to read the words ''LeBron'' and ''third round'' written in the same sentence in order to realise that something is very wrong here with Luka's draft stock. It doesn't matter what he'll do in the future. We've already seen what he has done till today (btw, he has been playing pro basketball since the age of 16). The 2019-2020 Luka season is a season worthy of a GOAT candidate. The rules of the game dictate that we only choose 1 season. Based on this single season, Luka should have been a surefire first rounder. At least this is the way I see it.

No one else did though for a reason.  Poor defense,injured a lot, etc.  Lots of reasons to think Luka will be an all time great, but he isn't yet and even looking at this partial season, 3rd round is fine value anything more would be a big reach.

[nickagneta]

I have all the data entered. Just have to run the numbers. I will do the reveal in this thread tomorrow starting at 11:00AM EDT. A team at a time will be revealed from #14 seed to #1.

Playoff teams will be announced in this process. Afterward, I will open the playoff threads and post every vote for full transparency.

Best of luck everyone.

[Roy H.]

Historical Draft - Portland Trailblazers
PG - Magic Johnson, Tony Parker
SG - Clyde Drexler, Dennis Johnson, Alvin Robertson
SF - James Worthy, Alex English
PF - Charles Barkley, Ben Wallace
C - Moses Malone, George Mikan, Brad Daugherty

Totally overlooked Portland on my ballot.  Too late to move them to the #1 seed?

[KGs Knee]

Here's how I had the teams ranked:

  1. Boston
  2. Philadelphia
  3. Utah
  4. Brooklyn
  5. Milwaukee
  6. Denver
  7. Toronto
  8. Oklahoma City
  9. LA Lakers
10. LA Clippers
11. Dallas
12. Miami
13. Houston
14. Indiana

The one thing that stood out to me the how good the top teams in the East were.  Any of those top 4 teams would have been a top 2 team in the West.

I think Boston is the most complete and dangerous team, and I'll be shocked if they don't win it all.  Durant is obviously the head of the snake, and I'm still baffled how KD fell as far as he did in the draft. But the fit of the talent here is really what sets them apart.  So much shooting and passing in that lineup.  And that 3 man front court of the Gasols and Sheed is too much.  Sheed might actually be the most talented of that trio.  The bench is loaded here too (I love the Houston/Sprewell reunion).

Philly and Utah are right there, though, and some good arguments could sway things in their favor.  It really shouldn't be a surprise the three best players (LeBron, Shaq, Durant) comprised my top 3 teams.  Those guys are just simply on a tier above everyone else, and with only 14 teams, putting complementary talent around them is very doable.

I'm guessing I'll probably have Brooklyn a bit higher than everyone else, but I don't really buy the argument Iverson wouldn't fit or be a hindrance.  Steal of the draft IMO.  Nabbing AI when they did really elevated that team in my view.

Denver is my sleeper team.  The defense there is exceptional, and it's not as if the offense will be lacking.  In terms of being a pure scorer, I'd rate Melo favorably to Durant, Iverson, or Harden.

Anyways, kudos to all of you for putting together some really good teams.  And also for avoiding any of the drama that we've seen in previous drafts.  Best of luck to everyone.

[Jvalin]

I regret is that I didn't trade Bron for Shaq. The Jazz were interested in such a deal.

Was this before or after you got Doncic?  What made you prefer Kawhi over Shaq?

It was a few hours after the Doncic pick. That's when I decided that I would trade either Bron or Doncic. My first option was to trade Luka for Gary Payton. The Nuggets weren't interested at the time.

Opted for Kawhi+Klay+Westbrook, cause I absolutely love the fit of Kawhi+Klay next to Luka. The idea was to trade Westbrook at the first opportunity either for a PF (like I did) or for an upgrade at C.

I also preferred Klay over Ray as a sidekick to Luka. Ray is hands down the better shot creator. Thing is, I didn't need Ray on the ball, cause I already had Luka. All I needed was a catch-and-shoot specialist who plays hard defense. Klay is the epitome of this. Literally the ideal fit next to Luka.

Looking back, I made a mistake. I should have traded Bron for Shaq.

@Nick
Bird, Steph, KD and Kyrie are elite shooters. They are perfectly suited to play off the ball. When it comes to shooting, Bron and Luka are nowhere near the same level. If either one of them were an elite shooter, there is zero chance I would have traded Bron.

You mentioned D-Wade. Remember the first season of the big 3 in Miami? Wade was unhappy, cause he didn't like playing second fiddle to Bron. It was only after the failure of that season that Wade started accepting his role. The Heat became a better team, but Wade paid a hefty price in the process. He was never the same player ever again.

With only two teams in each conference making the playoffs, regular season matters!!! If your team doesn't make the playoffs, then who cares what your players did in the playoffs.

Oops! Didn't know about that. I was under the impression that all teams automatically qualify for the playoffs and we just vote for which teams make it to the conference finals.

[Somebody]

This was my ranking:

1. Boston Celtics
2. Milwaukee Bucks
3. Miami Heat
4. Los Angeles Clippers
5. Brooklyn Nets
6. Oklahoma City Thunder
7. Indiana Pacers
8. Dallas Mavericks
9. Utah Jazz
10. Philadelphia 76ers
11. Denver Nuggets
12. Los Angeles Lakers
13. Houston Rockets