2020 Historic Draft: How’s My Team Look: Conference Finals winners announced!!

[Roy H.]

I think Somebody and nick both have good points on TS% vs rTS%.

To support nick's point, look at the 2014-2016 seasons in TS%.
2014 .541
2015 .534
2016 .541
If a guy had a slightly fluky 3 point percentage in 2015, using rTS% as a metric would overstate him as being very efficient that year even more than he already would be overstated.  There wasn't some real thing affecting league efficiency in 2015.  It was just normal variation.

Similarly, Carter's rTS% is 0.5% higher in 2001 than it would have been had he had that exact season in 2000.  Should it be considered as legitimately such?  Probably not, IMO.

However, I think there is an actual difference between scoring efficiency in Carter's era and Westbrook's era that should be taken into consideration.  I was the one who equated the two players in a PM and while I still don't see them as hugely different, I definitely now recognize a difference worth being mindful of.

I still don't see the value of the stat. If someone shot 55% TS% in 2004 and it was 3 points higher than the league average but in 2016 shot 55% TS% that was 0.5 points above league average doesn't change the fact that they were equally efficient each year. All it means is that compared to league average they were a bit better in 2004 than in 2016. Their efficiency did not change. What changed was how everyone else scored that year.

I understand using it to compare pre and post three point line era players. The rules changed to award more points for a shot. That makes sense.

Similarly, it might be useful at putting the years where they moved the 3PT line in into context.

But overall, I agree.

[Somebody]

TS% is a better stat for measuring overall efficiency, it includes free throws. Also one more thing about comparing players in different seasons: use rTS% instead of raw TS% (basically raw TS% minus league average TS% that season) to account for different eras.

Where do you get rTS%?

It is a very good stat but I do not know where to get it.

Subtracting the player's raw TS% with the league average TS% that season on basketball reference has been my method.

[Somebody]

I've watched a pair of games with Allen Iverson in them this week and I forgot just how insanely fun he was to watch when playing well. That speed, oh wow, electric. Nobody could stay in front of him.

Iverson would be a complete terror in today's league with no hand-checking and spaced out offenses. Nobody would stand a chance of stopping him.

I mostly agree. I think the hand checking thing is a little bit overrated here, because Iverson played after that rule was changed in 2004 without seeing a huge change in production.  However, with sufficient spacing he would have been able to get to the hoop much more easily. His speed and ballhandling would at times make him look like Russell Westbrook on fast forward.

Iversion averaged 31.1ppg in his 2000-2001 MVP season.  His 76ers played at a pace of 90.9 possessions per game.*

James Harden averaged a ridiculous 36.1ppg last season.  The highest scoring season of any player in this game.  His Rockets played at a (surprisingly slow) pace of 97.9 possessions per game. 

If you simply play the '01 76ers at the (relatively slow) pace of last season's Rockets, that would put Iverson at 34.5ppg.  If you also account for things like
-the level of physicality difference between 2001 and 2019
-the emphasis on players today shooting more 3s
-the emphasis on surrounding Harden with outside shooters that opens up the lane for him

I think Iverson in the league today would be the player with the highest scoring season in this game and I think it's not crazy to think he could approach 40ppg in the "right" situation in the league today.  I think he was that good.  He was the guy who in the 2nd or 3rd round I made a post saying something like "I would be open to the idea of trading away my entire team so far for a bunch of 4th/5th round picks and building a guy around one MVP player still on the board".

I'll post my ideal Iverson roster in a post to follow.

-----
*Note:  You could actually get Iverson more points per game by choosing his higher scoring 2002 season of 31.4ppg which played at a slower pace of 88.9 possessions per game.

You can actually look up points per possession on basketball-reference.  Iverson was “only” 18th since 2000. 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&type=per_poss&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2000&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=pts_per_g_req&c1stat=pts_per_poss&c1comp=gt&order_by=pts_per_poss

Does that measure what you were looking at?

Interestingly, among the top 25 such seasons, Giannas ranks second and third in efficiency as measured by eFG%.  Curry ranks first among the top-25, and has another season that would rank 2nd in the top-40.  Shaq and Lebron also rank highly.

TS% is a better stat for measuring overall efficiency, it includes free throws. Also one more thing about comparing players in different seasons: use rTS% instead of raw TS% (basically raw TS% minus league average TS% that season) to account for different eras. Saying that Russell Westbrook is as efficient as say Vince Carter is nonsensical (had it brought up in a PM, no offence to the guy who said it, I'm just using it as an example) when you consider that the deadball era in the early aughts was much less scoring-friendly than the pace and space era of nowadays.

I find rTS% to be an over thought out load of crap unless comparing pre and post three point line basketball. Scoring efficiency ebbs and flows every year and this era is all a total three point era.

Just because league average goes up or down, doesn't change the overall view of efficiency. Just because everyone discovers a new way every to play the game every few years, doesn't change the nature of the game. Efficient is efficient.

In my opinion, in this era, a TS% over 57% is good efficiency. Over 60% excellent efficiency. Over 62% elite efficiency. How those numbers compare to league average for any particular year is really next to meaningless, IMO.

Sorry, my man but not every advanced stats is useful or meaningful. Just because Steve Nash's TS% in 2001 is a point or two higher than the league average than JJRedick's in 2018, doesn't mean much as they both scored the same way and had about the same TS%.

I'm sorry my man, basketball has been changing over time even after the implementation of the three point line. You made a good point about rTS% being less than ideal for season close to each other, but you're the one spewing out a load of crap if you think basketball in 2017 is not more scoring friendly than 2001. Those were two completely different eras with completely different standards of efficiency.

[nickagneta]

I've watched a pair of games with Allen Iverson in them this week and I forgot just how insanely fun he was to watch when playing well. That speed, oh wow, electric. Nobody could stay in front of him.

Iverson would be a complete terror in today's league with no hand-checking and spaced out offenses. Nobody would stand a chance of stopping him.

I mostly agree. I think the hand checking thing is a little bit overrated here, because Iverson played after that rule was changed in 2004 without seeing a huge change in production.  However, with sufficient spacing he would have been able to get to the hoop much more easily. His speed and ballhandling would at times make him look like Russell Westbrook on fast forward.

Iversion averaged 31.1ppg in his 2000-2001 MVP season.  His 76ers played at a pace of 90.9 possessions per game.*

James Harden averaged a ridiculous 36.1ppg last season.  The highest scoring season of any player in this game.  His Rockets played at a (surprisingly slow) pace of 97.9 possessions per game. 

If you simply play the '01 76ers at the (relatively slow) pace of last season's Rockets, that would put Iverson at 34.5ppg.  If you also account for things like
-the level of physicality difference between 2001 and 2019
-the emphasis on players today shooting more 3s
-the emphasis on surrounding Harden with outside shooters that opens up the lane for him

I think Iverson in the league today would be the player with the highest scoring season in this game and I think it's not crazy to think he could approach 40ppg in the "right" situation in the league today.  I think he was that good.  He was the guy who in the 2nd or 3rd round I made a post saying something like "I would be open to the idea of trading away my entire team so far for a bunch of 4th/5th round picks and building a guy around one MVP player still on the board".

I'll post my ideal Iverson roster in a post to follow.

-----
*Note:  You could actually get Iverson more points per game by choosing his higher scoring 2002 season of 31.4ppg which played at a slower pace of 88.9 possessions per game.

You can actually look up points per possession on basketball-reference.  Iverson was “only” 18th since 2000. 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&type=per_poss&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2000&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=pts_per_g_req&c1stat=pts_per_poss&c1comp=gt&order_by=pts_per_poss

Does that measure what you were looking at?

Interestingly, among the top 25 such seasons, Giannas ranks second and third in efficiency as measured by eFG%.  Curry ranks first among the top-25, and has another season that would rank 2nd in the top-40.  Shaq and Lebron also rank highly.

TS% is a better stat for measuring overall efficiency, it includes free throws. Also one more thing about comparing players in different seasons: use rTS% instead of raw TS% (basically raw TS% minus league average TS% that season) to account for different eras. Saying that Russell Westbrook is as efficient as say Vince Carter is nonsensical (had it brought up in a PM, no offence to the guy who said it, I'm just using it as an example) when you consider that the deadball era in the early aughts was much less scoring-friendly than the pace and space era of nowadays.

I find rTS% to be an over thought out load of crap unless comparing pre and post three point line basketball. Scoring efficiency ebbs and flows every year and this era is all a total three point era.

Just because league average goes up or down, doesn't change the overall view of efficiency. Just because everyone discovers a new way every to play the game every few years, doesn't change the nature of the game. Efficient is efficient.

In my opinion, in this era, a TS% over 57% is good efficiency. Over 60% excellent efficiency. Over 62% elite efficiency. How those numbers compare to league average for any particular year is really next to meaningless, IMO.

Sorry, my man but not every advanced stats is useful or meaningful. Just because Steve Nash's TS% in 2001 is a point or two higher than the league average than JJRedick's in 2018, doesn't mean much as they both scored the same way and had about the same TS%.

I'm sorry my man, basketball has been changing over time even after the implementation of the three point line. You made a good point about rTS% being less than ideal for season close to each other, but you're the one spewing out a load of crap if you think basketball in 2017 is not more scoring friendly than 2001. Those were two completely different eras with completely different standards of efficiency.

Now now now. Be nice. I said the stat was a load of crap, not your opinion. Big difference.

And standard of efficiency does not matter one bit. None. Efficient is efficient. A difference in league efficiency of 2 or maybe 3 points means nothing.

Now pre shot clock, 1950's and 60's ball it has some relevance. Post shot clock, the difference is negligible and the stat meaningless.

As I said, sorry, but not all stats are good ones or very useful. This is one of those.

[Who]

TS% is a better stat for measuring overall efficiency, it includes free throws. Also one more thing about comparing players in different seasons: use rTS% instead of raw TS% (basically raw TS% minus league average TS% that season) to account for different eras.

Where do you get rTS%?

It is a very good stat but I do not know where to get it.

Subtracting the player's raw TS% with the league average TS% that season on basketball reference has been my method.

I never actually noticed they had that stat on B-R. I use the team off and def efficiency regularly (and league averages) but somehow missed the TS%.

Cool.

So the league average this season was 56.4% and 52.3% in 2000. Big difference.

[Somebody]

I think Somebody and nick both have good points on TS% vs rTS%.

To support nick's point, look at the 2014-2016 seasons in TS%.
2014 .541
2015 .534
2016 .541
If a guy had a slightly fluky 3 point percentage in 2015, using rTS% as a metric would overstate him as being very efficient that year even more than he already would be overstated.  There wasn't some real thing affecting league efficiency in 2015.  It was just normal variation.

Similarly, Carter's rTS% is 0.5% higher in 2001 than it would have been had he had that exact season in 2000.  Should it be considered as legitimately such?  Probably not, IMO.

However, I think there is an actual difference between scoring efficiency in Carter's era and Westbrook's era that should be taken into consideration.  I was the one who equated the two players in a PM and while I still don't see them as hugely different, I definitely now recognize a difference worth being mindful of.

I still don't see the value of the stat. If someone shot 55% TS% in 2004 and it was 3 points higher than the league average but in 2016 shot 55% TS% that was 0.5 points above league average doesn't change the fact that they were equally efficient each year. All it means is that compared to league average they were a bit better in 2004 than in 2016. Their efficiency did not change. What changed was how everyone else scored that year.

I understand using it to compare pre and post three point line era players. The rules changed to award more points for a shot. That makes sense.

2004 was near the end of the deadball era prior to the three point boom while 2016 was the start of the pace and space era we're seeing today, they were completely different lol. If you're straight up comparing the raw TS% of both players you're just completely ignoring the context of where their efficiency comes from, which to me goes against the aim of player evaluation and comparison between eras. I think this statistic fits right in with the mental curving you and Gouki apply to players like Bird (his best TS% was 61.2%, but you two are definitely not going to support the argument that 2018-2019 Taj Gibson would be as efficient as him in an All-Time draft).

[Somebody]

I've watched a pair of games with Allen Iverson in them this week and I forgot just how insanely fun he was to watch when playing well. That speed, oh wow, electric. Nobody could stay in front of him.

Iverson would be a complete terror in today's league with no hand-checking and spaced out offenses. Nobody would stand a chance of stopping him.

I mostly agree. I think the hand checking thing is a little bit overrated here, because Iverson played after that rule was changed in 2004 without seeing a huge change in production.  However, with sufficient spacing he would have been able to get to the hoop much more easily. His speed and ballhandling would at times make him look like Russell Westbrook on fast forward.

Iversion averaged 31.1ppg in his 2000-2001 MVP season.  His 76ers played at a pace of 90.9 possessions per game.*

James Harden averaged a ridiculous 36.1ppg last season.  The highest scoring season of any player in this game.  His Rockets played at a (surprisingly slow) pace of 97.9 possessions per game. 

If you simply play the '01 76ers at the (relatively slow) pace of last season's Rockets, that would put Iverson at 34.5ppg.  If you also account for things like
-the level of physicality difference between 2001 and 2019
-the emphasis on players today shooting more 3s
-the emphasis on surrounding Harden with outside shooters that opens up the lane for him

I think Iverson in the league today would be the player with the highest scoring season in this game and I think it's not crazy to think he could approach 40ppg in the "right" situation in the league today.  I think he was that good.  He was the guy who in the 2nd or 3rd round I made a post saying something like "I would be open to the idea of trading away my entire team so far for a bunch of 4th/5th round picks and building a guy around one MVP player still on the board".

I'll post my ideal Iverson roster in a post to follow.

-----
*Note:  You could actually get Iverson more points per game by choosing his higher scoring 2002 season of 31.4ppg which played at a slower pace of 88.9 possessions per game.

You can actually look up points per possession on basketball-reference.  Iverson was “only” 18th since 2000. 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&type=per_poss&per_poss_base=100&season_start=1&season_end=-1&lg_id=NBA&age_min=0&age_max=99&is_playoffs=N&height_min=0&height_max=99&year_min=2000&birth_country_is=Y&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=pts_per_g_req&c1stat=pts_per_poss&c1comp=gt&order_by=pts_per_poss

Does that measure what you were looking at?

Interestingly, among the top 25 such seasons, Giannas ranks second and third in efficiency as measured by eFG%.  Curry ranks first among the top-25, and has another season that would rank 2nd in the top-40.  Shaq and Lebron also rank highly.

TS% is a better stat for measuring overall efficiency, it includes free throws. Also one more thing about comparing players in different seasons: use rTS% instead of raw TS% (basically raw TS% minus league average TS% that season) to account for different eras. Saying that Russell Westbrook is as efficient as say Vince Carter is nonsensical (had it brought up in a PM, no offence to the guy who said it, I'm just using it as an example) when you consider that the deadball era in the early aughts was much less scoring-friendly than the pace and space era of nowadays.

I find rTS% to be an over thought out load of crap unless comparing pre and post three point line basketball. Scoring efficiency ebbs and flows every year and this era is all a total three point era.

Just because league average goes up or down, doesn't change the overall view of efficiency. Just because everyone discovers a new way every to play the game every few years, doesn't change the nature of the game. Efficient is efficient.

In my opinion, in this era, a TS% over 57% is good efficiency. Over 60% excellent efficiency. Over 62% elite efficiency. How those numbers compare to league average for any particular year is really next to meaningless, IMO.

Sorry, my man but not every advanced stats is useful or meaningful. Just because Steve Nash's TS% in 2001 is a point or two higher than the league average than JJRedick's in 2018, doesn't mean much as they both scored the same way and had about the same TS%.

I'm sorry my man, basketball has been changing over time even after the implementation of the three point line. You made a good point about rTS% being less than ideal for season close to each other, but you're the one spewing out a load of crap if you think basketball in 2017 is not more scoring friendly than 2001. Those were two completely different eras with completely different standards of efficiency.

Now now now. Be nice. I said the stat was a load of crap, not your opinion. Big difference.

And standard of efficiency does not matter one bit. None. Efficient is efficient. A difference in league efficiency of 2 or maybe 3 points means nothing.

Now pre shot clock, 1950's and 60's ball it has some relevance. Post shot clock, the difference is negligible and the stat meaningless.

As I said, sorry, but not all stats are good ones or very useful. This is one of those.

Sure, I went overboard there. My apologies.

What? 3-4 points is significant when it's a league wide trend for multiple years lol, it's usually caused by a different league landscape unrelated to player quality (eg. rules, style of play, etc). What you're doing is using a broad brush to define what's efficient or not, which works for players in general, but it fails miserably when you're doing player comparisons. There's a significant difference between 2003 Tracy McGrady and 2017 Russell Westbrook in terms of scoring efficiency, but you're never going to reach that conclusion if you simply compare their raw TS% (only a 1% difference between the two in raw TS%, but there's a 4.3% difference if you use rTS%).

[Somebody]

TS% is a better stat for measuring overall efficiency, it includes free throws. Also one more thing about comparing players in different seasons: use rTS% instead of raw TS% (basically raw TS% minus league average TS% that season) to account for different eras.

Where do you get rTS%?

It is a very good stat but I do not know where to get it.

Subtracting the player's raw TS% with the league average TS% that season on basketball reference has been my method.

I never actually noticed they had that stat on B-R. I use the team off and def efficiency regularly (and league averages) but somehow missed the TS%.

Cool.

So the league average this season was 56.4% and 52.3% in 2000. Big difference.

They have a bunch of nice box stats that are useful, they're my go to site for historical figures. And yeah it's a really big difference, I'm not sure why is it brushed off in player comparisons.

[Donoghus]

Through 12 rounds.  Brooklyn Nets


2020 CS Historical Draft

PG- Andre Miller
SG- Tracy McGrady
SF- Shawn Marion
PF- Anthony Davis
C- Yao Ming

Bench: Allen Iverson, Blake Griffin, Theo Ratliff, David West, Shane Battier, CJ McCollum, Eddie House

[nickagneta]

Through 12 rounds.  Brooklyn Nets


2020 CS Historical Draft

PG- Andre Miller
SG- Tracy McGrady
SF- Shawn Marion
PF- Anthony Davis
C- Yao Ming

Bench: Allen Iverson, Blake Griffin, Theo Ratliff, David West, Shane Battier, CJ McCollum, Eddie House

This is without a doubt the best team created from the last pick in the 1st round of any of these draft games that I have ever seen.

Amazing job grabbing not only players with tremendous value where you picked them but also how you managed to make them cohesive too.

Awesome job Dons.

[Roy H.]

Through 12 rounds.  Brooklyn Nets


2020 CS Historical Draft

PG- Andre Miller
SG- Tracy McGrady
SF- Shawn Marion
PF- Anthony Davis
C- Yao Ming

Bench: Allen Iverson, Blake Griffin, Theo Ratliff, David West, Shane Battier, CJ McCollum, Eddie House

This is without a doubt the best team created from the last pick in the 1st round of any of these draft games that I have ever seen.

Amazing job grabbing not only players with tremendous value where you picked them but also how you managed to make them cohesive too.

Awesome job Dons.

Yeah, Tmac and Davis was a phenomenal foundation.

[gouki88]

Through 12 rounds.  Brooklyn Nets


2020 CS Historical Draft

PG- Andre Miller
SG- Tracy McGrady
SF- Shawn Marion
PF- Anthony Davis
C- Yao Ming

Bench: Allen Iverson, Blake Griffin, Theo Ratliff, David West, Shane Battier, CJ McCollum, Eddie House

This is without a doubt the best team created from the last pick in the 1st round of any of these draft games that I have ever seen.

Amazing job grabbing not only players with tremendous value where you picked them but also how you managed to make them cohesive too.

Awesome job Dons.

Yeah, Tmac and Davis was a phenomenal foundation.

TMac is a fantastic get. IMO his peak was better than D-Wade's, and right there as good as Kobe's. It was just incredibly brief

[gouki88]

12 rounds done - what do people think of the LA Clippers:

PG: Stephen Curry / Deron Williams / Penny Hardaway
SG: Michael Redd / Doug Christie
SF: Grant Hill / Hedo Turkoglu
PF: Elton Brand / Lamar Odom / Josh Smith
C: Joakim Noah / Andrew Bynum

[Donoghus]

12 rounds done - what do people think of the LA Clippers:

PG: Stephen Curry / Deron Williams / Penny Hardaway
SG: Michael Redd / Doug Christie
SF: Grant Hill / Hedo Turkoglu
PF: Elton Brand / Lamar Odom / Josh Smith
C: Joakim Noah / Andrew Bynum

That's a real solid squad.  Spacing should be pretty good.  Love your guards.   Don't know what I think about Noah as a starter here.

[RPGenerate]

12 rounds done - what do people think of the LA Clippers:

PG: Stephen Curry / Deron Williams / Penny Hardaway
SG: Michael Redd / Doug Christie
SF: Grant Hill / Hedo Turkoglu
PF: Elton Brand / Lamar Odom / Josh Smith
C: Joakim Noah / Andrew Bynum

That's a real solid squad.  Spacing should be pretty good.  Love your guards.   Don't know what I think about Noah as a starter here.

While there might be some concern offensively, his awesome defense was just what that team need. Noah quarterbacked some great defenses in his prime.