Poll: Where does Kobe rank among the NBA's greatest players?

[Somebody]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

I actually posted my top 15 list in this thread earlier on lol.

12-15 range to me. Don't see him cracking the prestigious top 11, but I also don't see him dropping below the likes of West and Doctor J due to his longevity.

This is probably my top 15 list (in order, but I'm open to arguments ranking players in the same range differently):
Tier 1
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Tier 2
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

Tier 4
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone

Btw awards mean absolutely nothing to me so please don't pull out stuff like Moses' 3 MVPs to pump up a player if you're replying to my list lol (no offence, I just think that awards are absolute crap at evaluating a player's "goodness").

No offense, but many here probably think using very noisy advanced stats to judge players over different eras is absolute crap in evaluating "goodness" in a player so maybe you should keep that out of your conversations when talking top ten players with people.

Of course, I don't agree with that, but I also don't agree that awards don't matter, that titles don't matter, that winning doesn't matter. They all matter. That stats. The awards. Everything.

So people wanting to bring up awards should do so in their arguments just as you bringing up some noisy advanced stats should bring those up.

As noisy as those advanced stats are, using a multitude of them, not just individual numbers, but also team metrics while taking factors such as teammate quality, opponent quality (if you're looking at playoff performances) as well as blending in the eye test would give you a much better idea than simply what accolades can give you, especially accolades that come from a panel of voters who might still be thinking that raw FG% is still all the rage in efficiency.

But yes point taken, I sounded ignorant in my earlier post.

[Somebody]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

I actually posted my top 15 list in this thread earlier on lol.

12-15 range to me. Don't see him cracking the prestigious top 11, but I also don't see him dropping below the likes of West and Doctor J due to his longevity.

This is probably my top 15 list (in order, but I'm open to arguments ranking players in the same range differently):
Tier 1
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Tier 2
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

Tier 4
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone

Btw awards mean absolutely nothing to me so please don't pull out stuff like Moses' 3 MVPs to pump up a player if you're replying to my list lol (no offence, I just think that awards are absolute crap at evaluating a player's "goodness").

your disdain for 80's basketball is a bit much.  Garnett is not better than Bird and Magic.  Not even close.  And I already knew you hate Moses Malone for some strange reason.  He was the best player in the world for a 5 year period, playing in a time with 3 other top 10 players all time.

Disdain for 80s basketball? Is that why Jordan and Kareem are in my top 4? FWIW Bird and Magic would've joined the top 4 if they didn't have injury/HIV problems and played until the mid 90s at a high level. I've been pretty clear with how their longevity hamstrung them in my list, not because they didn't peak high enough.

And maybe you love Moses Malone for some strange reason, saying that he was the best player in the world in a 5 year period doesn't sound convincing at all when Kareem and Bird played during that stretch.

[fairweatherfan]

Everybody's criteria are arbitrary and flawed so anyway here's what mine say. Players aren't ranked within the tiers.

GOAT conversation
Jordan
LeBron
Russell
Kareem

Not quite in GOAT conversation
Wilt
Bird
Magic

Not in GOAT conversation but legit top 10 contenders
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Oscar
West

Fringe top 10 guys
Karl Malone
Kobe
Durant
Moses
Baylor
Dr. J (if ABA included)

Definitely not top 10 but strong top 20 case
Garnett
Curry
Havlicek
Dirk

Plausible Top 20 case but not definite
Barkley
Giannis (yes already)
Robinson
Harden
Pippen
Wade

I'm probably forgetting somebody but oh well.

[Donoghus]

Everybody's criteria are arbitrary and flawed so anyway here's what mine say. Players aren't ranked within the tiers.

GOAT conversation
Jordan
LeBron
Russell
Kareem

Not quite in GOAT conversation
Wilt
Bird
Magic

Not in GOAT conversation but legit top 10 contenders
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Oscar
West

Fringe top 10 guys
Karl Malone
Kobe
Durant
Moses
Baylor
Dr. J (if ABA included)

Definitely not top 10 but strong top 20 case
Garnett
Curry
Havlicek
Dirk

Plausible Top 20 case but not definite
Barkley
Giannis (yes already)
Robinson
Harden
Pippen
Wade

I'm probably forgetting somebody but oh well.

That's actually a pretty solid breakout and I like the way you labeled the tiers.

[Moranis]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

I actually posted my top 15 list in this thread earlier on lol.

12-15 range to me. Don't see him cracking the prestigious top 11, but I also don't see him dropping below the likes of West and Doctor J due to his longevity.

This is probably my top 15 list (in order, but I'm open to arguments ranking players in the same range differently):
Tier 1
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Tier 2
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

Tier 4
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone

Btw awards mean absolutely nothing to me so please don't pull out stuff like Moses' 3 MVPs to pump up a player if you're replying to my list lol (no offence, I just think that awards are absolute crap at evaluating a player's "goodness").

your disdain for 80's basketball is a bit much.  Garnett is not better than Bird and Magic.  Not even close.  And I already knew you hate Moses Malone for some strange reason.  He was the best player in the world for a 5 year period, playing in a time with 3 other top 10 players all time.

Disdain for 80s basketball? Is that why Jordan and Kareem are in my top 4? FWIW Bird and Magic would've joined the top 4 if they didn't have injury/HIV problems and played until the mid 90s at a high level. I've been pretty clear with how their longevity hamstrung them in my list, not because they didn't peak high enough.

And maybe you love Moses Malone for some strange reason, saying that he was the best player in the world in a 5 year period doesn't sound convincing at all when Kareem and Bird played during that stretch.

Jordan made his business in the 90's and Kareem in the 70's.  Those are the decades of their true prime years. 

Jordan played 930 games in Chicago (added 142 in Washington).  Bird played in 897 games (and was 35 when he retired) and Magic played in 906 (874 without the last year in 96).  Unless you are really relying on Jordan's 2 Washington seasons it seems strange to view the longevity that much differently.  Also, Russell only had 963.  It just seems like a strange place to draw the line. 

You can disagree all you want, but Moses Malone was in fact the best player in the world over a 5 year period.  I know you hate awards, but the writers were not wrong in giving Moses the 3 MVP's during that stretch.  He was that good and that dominant over that stretch.  Every bit as good as Kareem, Bird, and Magic during that stretch (a couple of seasons pre-dated Larry and Magic). 

[nickagneta]

Everybody's criteria are arbitrary and flawed so anyway here's what mine say. Players aren't ranked within the tiers.

GOAT conversation
Jordan
LeBron
Russell
Kareem

Not quite in GOAT conversation
Wilt
Bird
Magic

Not in GOAT conversation but legit top 10 contenders
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Oscar
West

Fringe top 10 guys
Karl Malone
Kobe
Durant
Moses
Baylor
Dr. J (if ABA included)

Definitely not top 10 but strong top 20 case
Garnett
Curry
Havlicek
Dirk

Plausible Top 20 case but not definite
Barkley
Giannis (yes already)
Robinson
Harden
Pippen
Wade

I'm probably forgetting somebody but oh well.

That's actually a pretty solid breakout and I like the way you labeled the tiers.

Thought the exact same thing so threw fwf some TPs. Tremendous breakdown.

[nickagneta]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

I actually posted my top 15 list in this thread earlier on lol.

12-15 range to me. Don't see him cracking the prestigious top 11, but I also don't see him dropping below the likes of West and Doctor J due to his longevity.

This is probably my top 15 list (in order, but I'm open to arguments ranking players in the same range differently):
Tier 1
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Tier 2
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

Tier 4
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone

Btw awards mean absolutely nothing to me so please don't pull out stuff like Moses' 3 MVPs to pump up a player if you're replying to my list lol (no offence, I just think that awards are absolute crap at evaluating a player's "goodness").

your disdain for 80's basketball is a bit much.  Garnett is not better than Bird and Magic.  Not even close.  And I already knew you hate Moses Malone for some strange reason.  He was the best player in the world for a 5 year period, playing in a time with 3 other top 10 players all time.

Disdain for 80s basketball? Is that why Jordan and Kareem are in my top 4? FWIW Bird and Magic would've joined the top 4 if they didn't have injury/HIV problems and played until the mid 90s at a high level. I've been pretty clear with how their longevity hamstrung them in my list, not because they didn't peak high enough.

And maybe you love Moses Malone for some strange reason, saying that he was the best player in the world in a 5 year period doesn't sound convincing at all when Kareem and Bird played during that stretch.

Jordan made his business in the 90's and Kareem in the 70's.  Those are the decades of their true prime years. 

Jordan played 930 games in Chicago (added 142 in Washington).  Bird played in 897 games (and was 35 when he retired) and Magic played in 906 (874 without the last year in 96).  Unless you are really relying on Jordan's 2 Washington seasons it seems strange to view the longevity that much differently.  Also, Russell only had 963.  It just seems like a strange place to draw the line. 

You can disagree all you want, but Moses Malone was in fact the best player in the world over a 5 year period.  I know you hate awards, but the writers were not wrong in giving Moses the 3 MVP's during that stretch.  He was that good and that dominant over that stretch.  Every bit as good as Kareem, Bird, and Magic during that stretch (a couple of seasons pre-dated Larry and Magic).

Agree completely on Moses. During that '79-'85 run, Moses was dominant and he was clearly the best big during that time and either the best or 2nd best player in the world during those years and deserving of those MVP awards. He carried that Houston team to the Finals and was THE difference between Philly and everyone else in '83 because no one could stop him down low, much like no one could for the 3-4 years before that.

[KG Living Legend]

 Honestly he Ranks right around #8 for me. Rest in Heaven Kobe. What a crying shame.

[GreenFaith1819]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

I actually posted my top 15 list in this thread earlier on lol.

12-15 range to me. Don't see him cracking the prestigious top 11, but I also don't see him dropping below the likes of West and Doctor J due to his longevity.

This is probably my top 15 list (in order, but I'm open to arguments ranking players in the same range differently):
Tier 1
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Tier 2
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

Tier 4
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone

Btw awards mean absolutely nothing to me so please don't pull out stuff like Moses' 3 MVPs to pump up a player if you're replying to my list lol (no offence, I just think that awards are absolute crap at evaluating a player's "goodness").

your disdain for 80's basketball is a bit much.  Garnett is not better than Bird and Magic.  Not even close.  And I already knew you hate Moses Malone for some strange reason.  He was the best player in the world for a 5 year period, playing in a time with 3 other top 10 players all time.

Disdain for 80s basketball? Is that why Jordan and Kareem are in my top 4? FWIW Bird and Magic would've joined the top 4 if they didn't have injury/HIV problems and played until the mid 90s at a high level. I've been pretty clear with how their longevity hamstrung them in my list, not because they didn't peak high enough.

And maybe you love Moses Malone for some strange reason, saying that he was the best player in the world in a 5 year period doesn't sound convincing at all when Kareem and Bird played during that stretch.

Jordan made his business in the 90's and Kareem in the 70's.  Those are the decades of their true prime years. 

Jordan played 930 games in Chicago (added 142 in Washington).  Bird played in 897 games (and was 35 when he retired) and Magic played in 906 (874 without the last year in 96).  Unless you are really relying on Jordan's 2 Washington seasons it seems strange to view the longevity that much differently.  Also, Russell only had 963.  It just seems like a strange place to draw the line. 

You can disagree all you want, but Moses Malone was in fact the best player in the world over a 5 year period.  I know you hate awards, but the writers were not wrong in giving Moses the 3 MVP's during that stretch.  He was that good and that dominant over that stretch.  Every bit as good as Kareem, Bird, and Magic during that stretch (a couple of seasons pre-dated Larry and Magic).

Agree completely on Moses. During that '79-'85 run, Moses was dominant and he was clearly the best big during that time and either the best or 2nd best player in the world during those years and deserving of those MVP awards. He carried that Houston team to the Finals and was THE difference between Philly and everyone else in '83 because no one could stop him down low, much like no one could for the 3-4 years before that.

Ferocious.

That is how I remember Moses Malone. No one could keep him off the boards.

For his size, he was quick off his feet. Once he planted himself down low, no one could move him.

He RELISHED contact as well...an old fashioned Junk Yard Dog.

He was a very good defender as well - but only for like 2 seasons (78-79 and 82-83) I think.

Charles Barkley spoke well of him - how he took him under his wing when he first got to PHI.

[GreenFaith1819]

Basketball reference currently has Kobe at 10.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

It ALSO has Larry at 9, so............

[Tr1boy]

For me yes. 1st 3 with Shaq. But last 2 he was the only big name.

In no order

1st tier
Kareem
Russell
Jordan
Bryant
Duncan
Magic

a notch below
Lebron
Dwade
Shaq
Hakeem the dream
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Bird
Mchale

Lucky charms
Horace Grant
Rober Horry
Steve Kerr
Derek Fisher
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
60s Celtics

[PhoSita]

I think it makes the most sense to think of the NBA greats in terms of eras.


50s and earlier --

60s - Bill Russell and the Celts owned this era ... Wilt was a frequent nemesis

70s - Jerry West, Kareem, Oscar Robertson and later Doctor J

80s - Bird vs Magic ... Isiah Thomas on the tail end

90s - Jordan, with a bit of Hakeem, Ewing, and David Robinson

00s - Kobe & Shaq vs Duncan and Nash ... Garnett and Dirk on the tail end.  To me Duncan is the signature player here.

10s - LeBron is the signature player here, with Curry's Warriors also a headliner ... Harden and Durant deserve mention



When I look at it this way, Kobe is clearly one of the "signature names" when you're talking about the history of the NBA.  But during his era, he was just one of a half dozen or so guys who defined the league.

Within his own era, Kobe was beloved / hated and had an enormous cultural impact.  However I would argue that his impact on the court was less than Shaq and Duncan.  I think you could also argue that Nash (with D'Antoni) had a greater hand in influencing where the style of play leaguewide was headed.  Kobe was more of a holdover of the older 90s era style of play.



I tend to think that any of the guys who defined their era -- Russell, Kareem, Bird & Magic, Jordan, Duncan, and LeBron -- has an argument for a spot near the top of the list, if not the very top.  In some ways it's kind of silly to argue differences between them.  The game and the league has changed a great deal over the years, and continues to change.


I don't think Kobe belongs in the same conversation as those guys, though.  He's a step above guys like Isiah, Malone, Garnett, Dirk, and Nash, probably a step below Shaq, Wilt, and Hakeem.


Lots of book left to be written on Curry, Durant, Harden, Giannis.

[gouki88]

For me yes. 1st 3 with Shaq. But last 2 he was the only big name.

In no order

1st tier
Kareem
Russell
Jordan
Bryant
Duncan
Magic

a notch below
Lebron
Dwade
Shaq
Hakeem the dream
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Bird
Mchale

Lucky charms
Horace Grant
Rober Horry
Steve Kerr
Derek Fisher
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
60s Celtics

Kobe ahead of Bird, Bron & Shaq is blasphemy!

[Jvalin]

Basketball reference currently has Kobe at 10.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

It ALSO has Larry at 9, so............

They got LeBron at #31!

(click on image to enlarge)



Is this for real?

[Donoghus]

Basketball reference currently has Kobe at 10.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

It ALSO has Larry at 9, so............

They got LeBron at #31!

(click on image to enlarge)



Is this for real?

That list was put together nearly a decade ago.  2011.