Honeymoon Over?

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Considering I've never viewed this year's team as anything more than 2nd fodder for the truly elite teams I'm not surprised they've fallen back to earth a bit after the hot start to the season. It's just that now our flaws are finally starting to show.

But people also need to realize there probably isn't any way for Ainge to address our flaws without creating other roster holes. It's a simple problem of not having large enough disposable contracts to move along with draft capital to make improvements. Ainge is going to have to either wait for solutions from within, or somehow acquire contracts than can be used as grist in potential future trades.

But beyond that, I'm not sure we really even haven't the top end talent to be legit contenders. Tatum is the one guy that could lift the team to that level but he is nowhere near ready yet for that kind of burden.

Right - this season's success will be made/broken on how Tatum and Brown develop throughout the year, how consistent they can be, and how much of a problem they can pose together. If they are a true nightly threat on both sides, we have a puncher's chance of getting out of the east. If not, good luck. And that's going to have to be OK because as you say the bigs are not available without compromising what would make this team uniquely good - 4 high-caliber perimeter players. Always a mismatch on the perimeter, somewhere. I would LOVE Steven Adams but I don't see how we get him.

Part of the problem is how the NBA limits trades. Simmons brought this up on a recent pod - if the NBA would allow trades to have only 50% matching salary that would open the floodgates. We had a summer where the cap spiked and now every midtier player is walking around with $25M above his head, and it makes normal trades really hard to pull off with how salary needs to align now.

I mean, personally I do think we should trade one of Smart/Brown/Tatum/Hayward for a big, but I'm not sure any are available that would be worth it.  But it is a problem, given that we basically cannot play our 5 best players at the same time except for in very specific matchups.  Not being able to play your 5 best players at the same time is a roster flaw and a misallocation of assets.

TBH, if Brown was at next year's mark, making ~$21M or whatever... I would seriously consider trading him straight-up for Steven Adams. It would look bad, and Brown is the better player, and I love Jaylen and think he'll be a very good player. But the East is going through Embiid for as long as he's healthy and in Philly. That team is a perennial ECF threat with him there. Plus Turner/Sabonis (would be happy with one of them too, but don't love Jaylen in Indy). I may have changed my mind from earlier this morning already haha but this "no true center" thing is going to be very tough. Not saying we can't do it! But barring a Draymond Green this type of lineup hasn't been done before with Championship success.

The Cavs starting center was generally Tristan Thompson. He is 6'9 or so. The Heat before them were starting guys like Chris Anderson or even Rashard Lewis at games in finals. The Rockets have generally been seen as contenders and they don't have a big lumbering center in Capela either. Is it possible timelord develops into a Capela type?

So, I've felt compelled to point this out many times before, and I feel compelled to do so again (I do not mean this as anything personal toward you, celticsclay):

You can win a title with Tristan Thompson, Chris Anderson, etc., as your starting center if you have LeBron James on your team. Or if your other starters include Durant-Curry-Thompson.

Brown-Tatum-Hayward-Walker is not going to win a title with a starting center of Theis or Kanter or the like. Not unless Brown and Tatum become the next LeBron and Durant, which seems unlikely.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Joel Embiid 38 pts 13 Rebs
Kyle O'Quinn 3 pts  4 Rebs

Daniel Theis 16 pts  5 Rebs
Enes Kanter 20 pts  9 Rebs

We did not lose last night because of the 76'ers overpowered us with Embiid. We lost because we can't beat the best teams when 3 of our top 4 guys play badly.

I didn't even watch the game and I know this is not true.  In the highlights, he overpowered the C's in the last 4 minutes of the game with great shooting and defense.

Embiid definitely owned Boston in the last few minutes of the game.

Though, to be fair, the main reason Boston lost, IMO, is that they generally played horribly in the second half, including everything from botched fast breaks to leaving Philly 3pt shooters wide open time and again to playing terrible baseline defense.

[GreenFaith1819]

Considering I've never viewed this year's team as anything more than 2nd fodder for the truly elite teams I'm not surprised they've fallen back to earth a bit after the hot start to the season. It's just that now our flaws are finally starting to show.

But people also need to realize there probably isn't any way for Ainge to address our flaws without creating other roster holes. It's a simple problem of not having large enough disposable contracts to move along with draft capital to make improvements. Ainge is going to have to either wait for solutions from within, or somehow acquire contracts than can be used as grist in potential future trades.

But beyond that, I'm not sure we really even haven't the top end talent to be legit contenders. Tatum is the one guy that could lift the team to that level but he is nowhere near ready yet for that kind of burden.

Right - this season's success will be made/broken on how Tatum and Brown develop throughout the year, how consistent they can be, and how much of a problem they can pose together. If they are a true nightly threat on both sides, we have a puncher's chance of getting out of the east. If not, good luck. And that's going to have to be OK because as you say the bigs are not available without compromising what would make this team uniquely good - 4 high-caliber perimeter players. Always a mismatch on the perimeter, somewhere. I would LOVE Steven Adams but I don't see how we get him.

Part of the problem is how the NBA limits trades. Simmons brought this up on a recent pod - if the NBA would allow trades to have only 50% matching salary that would open the floodgates. We had a summer where the cap spiked and now every midtier player is walking around with $25M above his head, and it makes normal trades really hard to pull off with how salary needs to align now.

I mean, personally I do think we should trade one of Smart/Brown/Tatum/Hayward for a big, but I'm not sure any are available that would be worth it.  But it is a problem, given that we basically cannot play our 5 best players at the same time except for in very specific matchups.  Not being able to play your 5 best players at the same time is a roster flaw and a misallocation of assets.

TBH, if Brown was at next year's mark, making ~$21M or whatever... I would seriously consider trading him straight-up for Steven Adams. It would look bad, and Brown is the better player, and I love Jaylen and think he'll be a very good player. But the East is going through Embiid for as long as he's healthy and in Philly. That team is a perennial ECF threat with him there. Plus Turner/Sabonis (would be happy with one of them too, but don't love Jaylen in Indy). I may have changed my mind from earlier this morning already haha but this "no true center" thing is going to be very tough. Not saying we can't do it! But barring a Draymond Green this type of lineup hasn't been done before with Championship success.

The Cavs starting center was generally Tristan Thompson. He is 6'9 or so. The Heat before them were starting guys like Chris Anderson or even Rashard Lewis at games in finals. The Rockets have generally been seen as contenders and they don't have a big lumbering center in Capela either. Is it possible timelord develops into a Capela type?

So, I've felt compelled to point this out many times before, and I feel compelled to do so again (I do not mean this as anything personal toward you, celticsclay):

You can win a title with Tristan Thompson, Chris Anderson, etc., as your starting center if you have LeBron James on your team. Or if your other starters include Durant-Curry-Thompson.

Brown-Tatum-Hayward-Walker is not going to win a title with a starting center of Theis or Kanter or the like. Not unless Brown and Tatum become the next LeBron and Durant, which seems unlikely.

This is - increasingly - looking like BOS's reality at the moment.

[Celtics4ever]

Embiid definitely owned Boston in the last few minutes of the game.

Small ball should be a tactic not our sole method of play.  You use it to change pace.  There are times when you still need bigs and Kanter gave us that last night at times.

[Spicoli]

The correct answer is no. You don't judge a team by its two best or its two worst games, and if these are the C's worst games they will win a lot of games.

The ack of an Embiid stopper is a problem. But its not one they can fix this year. So enjoy the ride.

The only player who seems capable of slowing Embiid down is Gasol and he's not available. I feel as though this team needs a capable bench scorer (Lou Williams) plus a sniper from deep (Bertans) more than it needs an Embiid stopper.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Embiid definitely owned Boston in the last few minutes of the game.

Small ball should be a tactic not our sole method of play.  You use it to change pace.  There are times when you still need bigs and Kanter gave us that last night at times.

Agree 100% on all counts. I was happy to see Kanter play a lot last night—in fact, I would've liked to see him play even more minutes than what he got, as Theis was, IMO, ineffective against Embiid. On the whole, I think Boston uses small-ball too often.

[ViolentGhandi]

hopefully the team will be better once Smart is back. He will distribute the ball in the 2nd unit, which means at the time JB and JB are in while Kemba and Hayward are out. Seems like thats that Stevens is goint with the last 2 games. Without hime its just handoff between Wanamaker and JT followed by stoopid plays/bad shots. Smart is doing a much better job distributing the ball and putting guys in position to score.

Plus the foul issue will be resolved. JB was defending Turner in the Indi game and Harris in the PHI game. Beeing able to split the job with Smart will help him a lot as well I believe.

Anyways size and rim protection is an issue for this team going forward. Not only does the team stuggle to get to the defence rebounds but also the the help defence leaves shooters open at the 3P line. On offence a big opposing C or C+Pf combination with good rim protectors takes away lot of the scoring ability from the Js. JT is driving at of control and JB is driving one step to deep just to get swallowed up by the D resulting in multible cross steps and often a bailout pass (and turnovers that give the opponent a head start). He has to improof on the midrange learning from GH. GH responds to this with pullups and floaters when he is having the room which he often does. He keeps it simple while the Js overvalue turnaround faders. JTs floaters are horrid - he is allways moving too fast towards the rim. When he takes off he is out of balance and his floaters end up beein too long. I think he knows that - he allways follows them aggressively often able to tip the ball up again but seldom completing the play. He should never do that kind of shot - at this point of his carrier its a bad bad shot.

That beeing said. The Team that made the deep playoff run 2 years ago was lacking size as well. The media nver gave them a chance to win the series. And yet they did - the team executed Stevens plan and abused missmatches. So knowing that one can hope that Stevens also comes up with a master plan and makes those adjustments this time around

[Rondo9]

This site can be ridiculous two losses and you guys are ready to pack it up.

[CelticSooner]

Expectations for this team changed with the hot start. I personally feel like the C's can beat any team in the East except Philly with it's current roster. Embiid can take the C's out of their game by slowing it down and making the refs whistle happy. He then shoots a hundred free throws and/or getting easy shots at the rim.

Personally I'm not ok with just accepting this season as hoping to just overachieve. Either go all in or go young. Ainge doesn't get a pass from me anymore. Yes I want a team that is loveable but the Celtics are about banners ultimately. Apart of me kinda feels like we are being sold a bill of goods. The big man situation has been there for years and is never addressed.

I think the elephant in the room is Hayward's contract. If he isn't in the C's future plans they need to trade him. He will most likely opt out and demand a big pay day. If he walks for nothing, Ainge really blew it.

[Fierce1]

Expectations for this team changed with the hot start. I personally feel like the C's can beat any team in the East except Philly with it's current roster. Embiid can take the C's out of their game by slowing it down and making the refs whistle happy. He then shoots a hundred free throws and/or getting easy shots at the rim.

Personally I'm not ok with just accepting this season as hoping to just overachieve. Either go all in or go young. Ainge doesn't get a pass from me anymore. Yes I want a team that is loveable but the Celtics are about banners ultimately. Apart of me kinda feels like we are being sold a bill of goods. The big man situation has been there for years and is never addressed.

I think the elephant in the room is Hayward's contract. If he isn't in the C's future plans they need to trade him. He will most likely opt out and demand a big pay day. If he walks for nothing, Ainge really blew it.

You're right on the money!

All in or go young!

The Boston Celtics is not like a franchise like the Charlotte Hornets.

Teams like the Hornets will be happy if they overachieve and make the playoffs.

We've already seen the Celtics overachieve and just exit the playoffs from 2014-15 to 2017-18.

It's time the Celts take the next step.

Right now Danny Ainge has the assets to make things happen.

The problem is very obvious, it's not just Embiid, the other Centers in the east are also giving the Celts problems.

We all know Kanter and Theis can score and rebound, the problem is Theis and Kanter will just give the 2 points back because they can't stop opposing Centers.

Celts need a Center who can play Embiid 1 on 1, just like Horford did the previous last 2 seasons.

[Fierce1]

Right now the Celts are giving up a lot of open 3s because the Celts are double teaming a lot inside.

That was not the case when Horford was a Celtic.

Horford could play opposing Centers 1 on 1.

[NKY fan]

Expectations for this team changed with the hot start. I personally feel like the C's can beat any team in the East except Philly with it's current roster. Embiid can take the C's out of their game by slowing it down and making the refs whistle happy. He then shoots a hundred free throws and/or getting easy shots at the rim.

Personally I'm not ok with just accepting this season as hoping to just overachieve. Either go all in or go young. Ainge doesn't get a pass from me anymore. Yes I want a team that is loveable but the Celtics are about banners ultimately. Apart of me kinda feels like we are being sold a bill of goods. The big man situation has been there for years and is never addressed.

I think the elephant in the room is Hayward's contract. If he isn't in the C's future plans they need to trade him. He will most likely opt out and demand a big pay day. If he walks for nothing, Ainge really blew it.

You're right on the money!

All in or go young!

The Boston Celtics is not like a franchise like the Charlotte Hornets.

Teams like the Hornets will be happy if they overachieve and make the playoffs.

We've already seen the Celtics overachieve and just exit the playoffs from 2014-15 to 2017-18.

It's time the Celts take the next step.

Right now Danny Ainge has the assets to make things happen.

The problem is very obvious, it's not just Embiid, the other Centers in the east are also giving the Celts problems.

We all know Kanter and Theis can score and rebound, the problem is Theis and Kanter will just give the 2 points back because they can't stop opposing Centers.

Celts need a Center who can play Embiid 1 on 1, just like Horford did the previous last 2 seasons.

Judging by fierce and celticsooner TP to post ratios you guys voice unpopular opinions on here just like me lol!!
With that said :
I don’t know if Danny has taken economics classes but he for sure missed the chapter on diminishing returns. At some point he has to stop hoarding his draft picks and assets like a squirrel coraling nuts in an attic ... and turn us into contenders. Bringing 4 rookies every year got old to me last season and this one is no exception to his tendencies.
I do agree he has found the recipe to appeal to 60-70% of the fan base :
-Bring young players every year
-make the fans hope
-have a coach that is likeable and has his misfits overachieve
- repeat next year...

I understand that was not 100% his plan in 2013 but It feels like it 6 and half years later

[tenn_smoothie]

Some losses against likely playoff opponents is not such a bad thing in December. Gives Danny & Co. time address some weaknesses and address them for later in the season, when it really counts.

Yeah and the weaknesses have already been obvious, long before these two games. We need a legitimate center and our bench cannot score. Of course, Danny and Brad would rather give up sex than have a quality post game.

The elephant in the room is Danny's sick love affair with finesse small-ball basketball. The center issue has been a problem since Ainge gave away Kendrick Perkins for soft athleticism.

[tenn_smoothie]

Embiid definitely owned Boston in the last few minutes of the game.

Small ball should be a tactic not our sole method of play.  You use it to change pace.  There are times when you still need bigs and Kanter gave us that last night at times.

Agree 100% on all counts. I was happy to see Kanter play a lot last night—in fact, I would've liked to see him play even more minutes than what he got, as Theis was, IMO, ineffective against Embiid. On the whole, I think Boston uses small-ball too often.

"Uses small ball too often"

Small ball is all they do.

[Somebody]

Expectations for this team changed with the hot start. I personally feel like the C's can beat any team in the East except Philly with it's current roster. Embiid can take the C's out of their game by slowing it down and making the refs whistle happy. He then shoots a hundred free throws and/or getting easy shots at the rim.

Personally I'm not ok with just accepting this season as hoping to just overachieve. Either go all in or go young. Ainge doesn't get a pass from me anymore. Yes I want a team that is loveable but the Celtics are about banners ultimately. Apart of me kinda feels like we are being sold a bill of goods. The big man situation has been there for years and is never addressed.

I think the elephant in the room is Hayward's contract. If he isn't in the C's future plans they need to trade him. He will most likely opt out and demand a big pay day. If he walks for nothing, Ainge really blew it.

You're right on the money!

All in or go young!

The Boston Celtics is not like a franchise like the Charlotte Hornets.

Teams like the Hornets will be happy if they overachieve and make the playoffs.

We've already seen the Celtics overachieve and just exit the playoffs from 2014-15 to 2017-18.

It's time the Celts take the next step.

Right now Danny Ainge has the assets to make things happen.

The problem is very obvious, it's not just Embiid, the other Centers in the east are also giving the Celts problems.

We all know Kanter and Theis can score and rebound, the problem is Theis and Kanter will just give the 2 points back because they can't stop opposing Centers.

Celts need a Center who can play Embiid 1 on 1, just like Horford did the previous last 2 seasons.

Judging by fierce and celticsooner TP to post ratios you guys voice unpopular opinions on here just like me lol!!
With that said :
I don’t know if Danny has taken economics classes but he for sure missed the chapter on diminishing returns. At some point he has to stop hoarding his draft picks and assets like a squirrel coraling nuts in an attic ... and turn us into contenders. Bringing 4 rookies every year got old to me last season and this one is no exception to his tendencies.
I do agree he has found the recipe to appeal to 60-70% of the fan base :
-Bring young players every year
-make the fans hope
-have a coach that is likeable and has his misfits overachieve
- repeat next year...

I understand that was not 100% his plan in 2013 but It feels like it 6 and half years later

To be fair there hasn't been any can't miss big man prospects we could've gotten in the past 6 and a half years. I think that hoarding wings is the way to go if you can't get a dominant big - wings are the most versatile archetype for a player. I'd rather us get a bunch of versatile wings than hoard a bunch of ball dominant guards who can only play the PG position.