Given How Things Looked When Horford Left, What A Job Ainge Has Done Since

[Phantom255x]

What guys like Theis, Kanter, and RWill does that Horford can't, get rebounds.

Horford was just averaging around 6-7 rebounds per game in his last 2 seasons with the Celts.

That's pathetic for a big man who was getting 28m per year.

Al Horford just got old.

he definitely is a poor rebounder but you ignore everything else he brings to the floor and all three of the players you mentioned don't.

I am not bothered that DA didn't offer more than the sixers but as Phantom255x says with AH this team is a real contender

So far the Celts are on pace to win 60 games.

If we're talking about a 30-year old Horford then I would agree about being a real contender.

But the Horford of right now just can't do what Theis, RWill, and Kanter can do.

It was only hours ago that the Celts got 19 offensive rebounds against the Nets.

Celts could never get that many offensive rebounds with Horford the last 2 seasons.

Horford was never a great rebounder.  In fact the 2 years before Boston he averaged 7.2, 7.3 rebounds.  In Boston he had 6.8, 7.4, 6.7 or right in the same mix as his last 2 years in Atlanta.  In other words, Boston didn't sign Al because he was a beast on the boards as he never was.  Boston signed Al to play elite defense, space the floor, and pass the ball.  Al did all of that and he did all of that very well.  And he is still doing that Philly.

Yep. I'm just happy we're no longer in that "era" where our frontcourt was Sully/Zeller/Mickey/Olynyk, etc. Those guys could barely rebound either, and frankly the bigs we've had the last few years and even this season are so much more physical.

Sullinger was actually a pretty good rebounder.

He was, but I thought he was soft. Same with a lot of the others I mentioned.

[Phantom255x]

For the Celtics to be 13-4 at this point in the season, they are WAY ahead of what I expected.

The recruitment of Kemba Walker to replace Kyrie Irving and the departures of former players such as Horford, Rozier, Baynes, and Morris forced other players to step up and grow.

The duo of Jayson and Jaylen and the pure goodness that is Kemba Walker as the leader of the lockerroom has led to a big turnaround in a good way.

I'm just enjoying this run because the needle is pointing upwards for our youngsters.  And the resigning of Smart looks like a bargain right now because he has been playing such a key role to the Celtics winning ways.

Good point. Smart at his contract actually looks like a huge bargain now.

[Fierce1]

For the Celtics to be 13-4 at this point in the season, they are WAY ahead of what I expected.

The recruitment of Kemba Walker to replace Kyrie Irving and the departures of former players such as Horford, Rozier, Baynes, and Morris forced other players to step up and grow.

The duo of Jayson and Jaylen and the pure goodness that is Kemba Walker as the leader of the lockerroom has led to a big turnaround in a good way.

I'm just enjoying this run because the needle is pointing upwards for our youngsters.  And the resigning of Smart looks like a bargain right now because he has been playing such a key role to the Celtics winning ways.

Good point. Smart at his contract actually looks like a huge bargain now.

Smart was just a victim of the free-agent market.
It was not a good year to be a free-agent at that time.
If Smart were to become a FA after this season ends, Smart would easily get what Jaylen got.

[trickybilly]

For the Celtics to be 13-4 at this point in the season, they are WAY ahead of what I expected.

The recruitment of Kemba Walker to replace Kyrie Irving and the departures of former players such as Horford, Rozier, Baynes, and Morris forced other players to step up and grow.

The duo of Jayson and Jaylen and the pure goodness that is Kemba Walker as the leader of the lockerroom has led to a big turnaround in a good way.

I'm just enjoying this run because the needle is pointing upwards for our youngsters.  And the resigning of Smart looks like a bargain right now because he has been playing such a key role to the Celtics winning ways.

Good point. Smart at his contract actually looks like a huge bargain now.

I don't want to sound like "that guy", but I immediately thought it was excellent value. Defense is, and always has been, severely underrated by 95% of teams' GMs since forever.

At the time, I was saying that I would balk at anything above 18 mill per. 13 mill per was always going to be a bargain with ongoing cap spikes (although let's not forget the China/Harden market collapse could be around the corner).

[bopna]

What guys like Theis, Kanter, and RWill does that Horford can't, get rebounds.

Horford was just averaging around 6-7 rebounds per game in his last 2 seasons with the Celts.

That's pathetic for a big man who was getting 28m per year.

Al Horford just got old.

he definitely is a poor rebounder but you ignore everything else he brings to the floor and all three of the players you mentioned don't.

I am not bothered that DA didn't offer more than the sixers but as Phantom255x says with AH this team is a real contender

So far the Celts are on pace to win 60 games.

If we're talking about a 30-year old Horford then I would agree about being a real contender.

But the Horford of right now just can't do what Theis, RWill, and Kanter can do.

It was only hours ago that the Celts got 19 offensive rebounds against the Nets.

Celts could never get that many offensive rebounds with Horford the last 2 seasons.

Horford was never a great rebounder.  In fact the 2 years before Boston he averaged 7.2, 7.3 rebounds.  In Boston he had 6.8, 7.4, 6.7 or right in the same mix as his last 2 years in Atlanta.  In other words, Boston didn't sign Al because he was a beast on the boards as he never was.  Boston signed Al to play elite defense, space the floor, and pass the ball.  Al did all of that and he did all of that very well.  And he is still doing that Philly.

That's why the Hawks never got close to reaching the east finals with Horford.

With Boston, rebounding was always a problem in the 3 seasons he played for the Celts.

The question is, would Ainge still have gone through giving Horford 28m per year if KD informed them ahead of time that he will be signing with Boston back in the summer of 2016?

One of the reasons why the Celts got Horford was to entice KD to come to Boston back in the summer of 2016.

Look at the Sixers now.
Horford is supposed to be an upgrade for them.
But it's looking like the Sixers were better last season than this season.

Sixers are on pace to win 3.67 more games this year than they won last year.

No they won't..

They will need Embiid to play 90% of the season for that to happen and even that is not happening.

I will say that they will be a tough out in the playoffs but I'm still taking the Cs line up right now specially if we still get the aggressive Hayward back from injury.

[Fierce1]

What guys like Theis, Kanter, and RWill does that Horford can't, get rebounds.

Horford was just averaging around 6-7 rebounds per game in his last 2 seasons with the Celts.

That's pathetic for a big man who was getting 28m per year.

Al Horford just got old.

he definitely is a poor rebounder but you ignore everything else he brings to the floor and all three of the players you mentioned don't.

I am not bothered that DA didn't offer more than the sixers but as Phantom255x says with AH this team is a real contender

So far the Celts are on pace to win 60 games.

If we're talking about a 30-year old Horford then I would agree about being a real contender.

But the Horford of right now just can't do what Theis, RWill, and Kanter can do.

It was only hours ago that the Celts got 19 offensive rebounds against the Nets.

Celts could never get that many offensive rebounds with Horford the last 2 seasons.

Horford was never a great rebounder.  In fact the 2 years before Boston he averaged 7.2, 7.3 rebounds.  In Boston he had 6.8, 7.4, 6.7 or right in the same mix as his last 2 years in Atlanta.  In other words, Boston didn't sign Al because he was a beast on the boards as he never was.  Boston signed Al to play elite defense, space the floor, and pass the ball.  Al did all of that and he did all of that very well.  And he is still doing that Philly.

That's why the Hawks never got close to reaching the east finals with Horford.

With Boston, rebounding was always a problem in the 3 seasons he played for the Celts.

The question is, would Ainge still have gone through giving Horford 28m per year if KD informed them ahead of time that he will be signing with Boston back in the summer of 2016?

One of the reasons why the Celts got Horford was to entice KD to come to Boston back in the summer of 2016.

Look at the Sixers now.
Horford is supposed to be an upgrade for them.
But it's looking like the Sixers were better last season than this season.

Sixers are on pace to win 3.67 more games this year than they won last year.

No they won't..

They will need Embiid to play 90% of the season for that to happen and even that is not happening.

I will say that they will be a tough out in the playoffs but I'm still taking the Cs line up right now specially if we still get the aggressive Hayward back from injury.

I agree.

Embiid has never played more than 64 games in one season.

[Csfan1984]

Well the guys I wanted DA to draft seem to be doing well but on the guys I wanted him to sign they got too much money to sign here and aren't doing well anyways. So I don't know if that makes me okay with how things are right now.

I was against signing Walker and for starting Smart. I felt we had too many PGs and I wanted more shots for Brown, Tatum, and Hayward. Yet it's still kind of working with BS trying to target mismatches and that's where the ball is going. How long it works for, time will tell.

While I didn't love our big man situation I was still telling people it was okay. Well the issue of health keeps popping up and now I'm definitely more worried. We have a good group because they each have their niche. However that is only good if they are all available. DA probably needs to trade for a more reliable Center.

I hate that we still go small so much but that's not on DA.

I liked this team's 10 game win streak much more than the two years past team's 16 game win streak. The 10 game one was done from a more dominant position with far less crazy and lucky comebacks then the 16 game one had. I feel that means this team is a better one at the start of the season.

I gave the team a D for it's offseason right now it's looking like a C+.

[Fierce1]

Well the guys I wanted DA to draft seem to be doing well but on the guys I wanted him to sign they got too much money to sign here and aren't doing well anyways. So I don't know if that makes me okay with how things are right now.

I was against signing Walker and for starting Smart. I felt we had too many PGs and I wanted more shots for Brown, Tatum, and Hayward. Yet it's still kind of working with BS trying to target mismatches and that's where the ball is going. How long it works for, time will tell.

While I didn't love our big man situation I was still telling people it was okay. Well the issue of health keeps popping up and now I'm definitely more worried. We have a good group because they each have their niche. However that is only good if they are all available. DA probably needs to trade for a more reliable Center.

I hate that we still go small so much but that's not on DA.

I liked this team's 10 game win streak much more than the two years past team's 16 game win streak. The 10 game one was done from a more dominant position with far less crazy and lucky comebacks then the 16 game one had. I feel that means this team is a better one at the start of the season.

I gave the team a D for it's offseason right now it's looking like a C+.

I think replacing Kyrie with Kemba already merits an A+.

Without Kemba, this Celts team wouldn't be in this position right now.

[Surferdad]

For the Celtics to be 13-4 at this point in the season, they are WAY ahead of what I expected.

The recruitment of Kemba Walker to replace Kyrie Irving and the departures of former players such as Horford, Rozier, Baynes, and Morris forced other players to step up and grow.

The duo of Jayson and Jaylen and the pure goodness that is Kemba Walker as the leader of the lockerroom has led to a big turnaround in a good way.

I'm just enjoying this run because the needle is pointing upwards for our youngsters.  And the resigning of Smart looks like a bargain right now because he has been playing such a key role to the Celtics winning ways.

Yes, but most prominently Jaylen Brown.  I don't feel that the bench is better, in fact probably not as good as last season.  The Celtics did give up depth, IMO (but I'm not saying this was a mistake).  Rookies, RWIII and Wanamaker are regular rotation players now.  They are growing but they are still not as good as last year's bench.

[Fafnir]

I don't want to sound like "that guy", but I immediately thought it was excellent value. Defense is, and always has been, severely underrated by 95% of teams' GMs since forever.

At the time, I was saying that I would balk at anything above 18 mill per. 13 mill per was always going to be a bargain with ongoing cap spikes (although let's not forget the China/Harden market collapse could be around the corner).

Defense is great, but the thing that cost Marcus  in RFA was his shooting. There is a world of difference between a 29% 3 point shooter (Marcus his first 4 years) and a 36% 3 point shooter (Marcus last 2 years).

Marcus always worked to the team's benefit because he could also pass the ball and be your backup PG. But you add league average shooting to the rest of his skills....

[Moranis]

What guys like Theis, Kanter, and RWill does that Horford can't, get rebounds.

Horford was just averaging around 6-7 rebounds per game in his last 2 seasons with the Celts.

That's pathetic for a big man who was getting 28m per year.

Al Horford just got old.

he definitely is a poor rebounder but you ignore everything else he brings to the floor and all three of the players you mentioned don't.

I am not bothered that DA didn't offer more than the sixers but as Phantom255x says with AH this team is a real contender

So far the Celts are on pace to win 60 games.

If we're talking about a 30-year old Horford then I would agree about being a real contender.

But the Horford of right now just can't do what Theis, RWill, and Kanter can do.

It was only hours ago that the Celts got 19 offensive rebounds against the Nets.

Celts could never get that many offensive rebounds with Horford the last 2 seasons.

Horford was never a great rebounder.  In fact the 2 years before Boston he averaged 7.2, 7.3 rebounds.  In Boston he had 6.8, 7.4, 6.7 or right in the same mix as his last 2 years in Atlanta.  In other words, Boston didn't sign Al because he was a beast on the boards as he never was.  Boston signed Al to play elite defense, space the floor, and pass the ball.  Al did all of that and he did all of that very well.  And he is still doing that Philly.

That's why the Hawks never got close to reaching the east finals with Horford.

With Boston, rebounding was always a problem in the 3 seasons he played for the Celts.

The question is, would Ainge still have gone through giving Horford 28m per year if KD informed them ahead of time that he will be signing with Boston back in the summer of 2016?

One of the reasons why the Celts got Horford was to entice KD to come to Boston back in the summer of 2016.

Look at the Sixers now.
Horford is supposed to be an upgrade for them.
But it's looking like the Sixers were better last season than this season.

Sixers are on pace to win 3.67 more games this year than they won last year.

If the Sixers continue to lose 6 games per month, they won't have a better record this season.

From now to April, that's still 5 months to go.

Anything can still happen because the Sixers can still make a trade.

But the point is, before the season started, the analysts from ESPN said Sixers will be #1 in the east and will most likely face the Lakers in the Finals in 2020.

Right now the Sixers couldn't even beat a Toronto team without Kawhi.

By and large ESPN's analysts put the Bucks in the NBA finals and the #1 team in the conference. Which also matches the NBA GM Survey, SI.com, Yahoo, etc. 

As an example, here is an article from the end of August.  https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27426015/nba-preseason-predictions-our-experts-picks-2019-20.  Not only was Milwaukee the #1 seed, then had about 6 times the votes to win the title over the Sixers.  Also note they had the Sixers winning 55 games.  They are on pace for 56.67. 

Here is the ESPN article right before the season started.  https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27890019/expert-predictions-western-conference-eastern-conference-nba-champs.  It shows a close series, but 11 chose the Bucks, 9 chose the Sixers to win the East (and they were the only 2 teams anyone put in the ECF).  Of course winning the ECF has very little to do with your actual record. 

So in sum, the ESPN analysts predicted Milwaukee to be the best team in the East, not Philadelphia.  The ESPN analysts pegged Philly as a 55 win team, which they are currently ahead of that pace.  In other words, Philly is performing about what ESPN thought they would be performing like. 

[Moranis]

What guys like Theis, Kanter, and RWill does that Horford can't, get rebounds.

Horford was just averaging around 6-7 rebounds per game in his last 2 seasons with the Celts.

That's pathetic for a big man who was getting 28m per year.

Al Horford just got old.

he definitely is a poor rebounder but you ignore everything else he brings to the floor and all three of the players you mentioned don't.

I am not bothered that DA didn't offer more than the sixers but as Phantom255x says with AH this team is a real contender

So far the Celts are on pace to win 60 games.

If we're talking about a 30-year old Horford then I would agree about being a real contender.

But the Horford of right now just can't do what Theis, RWill, and Kanter can do.

It was only hours ago that the Celts got 19 offensive rebounds against the Nets.

Celts could never get that many offensive rebounds with Horford the last 2 seasons.

Horford was never a great rebounder.  In fact the 2 years before Boston he averaged 7.2, 7.3 rebounds.  In Boston he had 6.8, 7.4, 6.7 or right in the same mix as his last 2 years in Atlanta.  In other words, Boston didn't sign Al because he was a beast on the boards as he never was.  Boston signed Al to play elite defense, space the floor, and pass the ball.  Al did all of that and he did all of that very well.  And he is still doing that Philly.

That's why the Hawks never got close to reaching the east finals with Horford.

With Boston, rebounding was always a problem in the 3 seasons he played for the Celts.

The question is, would Ainge still have gone through giving Horford 28m per year if KD informed them ahead of time that he will be signing with Boston back in the summer of 2016?

One of the reasons why the Celts got Horford was to entice KD to come to Boston back in the summer of 2016.

Look at the Sixers now.
Horford is supposed to be an upgrade for them.
But it's looking like the Sixers were better last season than this season.

Sixers are on pace to win 3.67 more games this year than they won last year.

No they won't..

They will need Embiid to play 90% of the season for that to happen and even that is not happening.

I will say that they will be a tough out in the playoffs but I'm still taking the Cs line up right now specially if we still get the aggressive Hayward back from injury.

He has already missed 4 games though.  That is on pace for missing 18.22 games.  Now they are just 2-2 in the 4 games he missed, but they are 10-4 in the games he has played.  If they continue on a similar path, they will win 56 or 57 games.  They should go at least 5-2 in their next 7 games leading into the December 12th game in Boston.  They then should have another similar stretch leading into the Christmas Day game at home against Milwaukee.  After that they have a pretty tough stretch with 6 of 8 on the road and the 2 home being OKC and Boston. 

This notion that the Sixers have been a failure is just a strange one to take.  Everyone knows Embiid is going to miss time, which is why no one predicted the Sixers to be a 60 win team.  But come playoffs if they are healthy they are perhaps the most dangerous team in the conference given just what Embiid can be when healthy.

[Phantom255x]

For the Celtics to be 13-4 at this point in the season, they are WAY ahead of what I expected.

The recruitment of Kemba Walker to replace Kyrie Irving and the departures of former players such as Horford, Rozier, Baynes, and Morris forced other players to step up and grow.

The duo of Jayson and Jaylen and the pure goodness that is Kemba Walker as the leader of the lockerroom has led to a big turnaround in a good way.

I'm just enjoying this run because the needle is pointing upwards for our youngsters.  And the resigning of Smart looks like a bargain right now because he has been playing such a key role to the Celtics winning ways.

Good point. Smart at his contract actually looks like a huge bargain now.

Smart was just a victim of the free-agent market.
It was not a good year to be a free-agent at that time.
If Smart were to become a FA after this season ends, Smart would easily get what Jaylen got.

Eh I highly doubt he'd have gotten what Jaylen did. But maybe close to what Draymond got? (4-5 years, 17-18M AAV)

[azzenfrost]

I'm just glad other GMs are still taking his calls.