What can we get for Tatum?

[keevsnick]

This thread is a MIRACLE thread. Just shows Tatum needed a kick in the pants.

We out to start individual trade threads for every Boston player about mid-way through each game. The C's would blow everyone out by 30.

[MichiganAdam]

Tatum is not for sale
Unless we get Doncic from Dallas in return....

I'd rather KP for this team, no matter how good Doncic is.

[BringToughnessBack]

This thread is a MIRACLE thread. Just shows Tatum needed a kick in the pants.

Haha! We should have done this vs Bucks last year

[Ogaju]

This thread is a MIRACLE thread. Just shows Tatum needed a kick in the pants.

Haha! We should have done this vs Bucks last year

lol TP

[jpotter33]

OP when Tatum exploded in the second half helping lead to a victory...

Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Muzzy66]

absolutely nothing wrong with this thread or OP he asked what can we get for Tatum...... fair question. What if MN sends KAT.

At the time the question was posed I said you couldnt get a bag of donuts. lol.

If Minny wants to send KAT then it's a done deal!

I'm a big fan of Tatum, but the team is more important.
So KAT for Tatum is good for the Celts.

Unfortunately the Wolves front office is not crazy.
There's no way they would trade KAT for Tatum.
It's just to ridiculous of an idea.

Only way KAT gets traded is if he will ask for a trade and so far that's not happening.

I'm pretty sure Tatum in two years, at age 21, has ALREADY led his team to more playoff success the KAT has. 

Tatum has carried his team to the ECF as the best player on the team, and he did it as a 19 year old rookie.

KAT has struggled on an annual basis to even lead his team to MAKE the playoffs.  He shows no sign of fight, no sign of leadership, and he got exposed by Jimmy Buter as being a soft, lazy prima donna who lacks work ethic and who seems to think that simply standing around while being talented is going to tbe enough to take him to the promised land. 

I'll keep Tatum, thanks.

   He hasn’t carried a team anywhere. It’s debatable if Brown was a better playoff performer ( considering his defense ) but either way he wasn’t the best player on that playoff team. It was Horford by a mile.

Tatum was the Celtic's leading scorer in the playoffs that year, he led the team in scoring most games, he played consistently strong defence, and he madew numerous massive clutch shots. 

You can make an argument that Horford was better then Tatum in that series, as he definitely played well - but when the game was on the line and the Celtics needed a big shot, it was primarily Tatum and Rozier that Brad turned to for those end of game plays - and they delivered.  Horford has rarely ever been that type of guy.  Horford played like a really good vet in those Playoffs, Tatum played like a rising star.

[keevsnick]

absolutely nothing wrong with this thread or OP he asked what can we get for Tatum...... fair question. What if MN sends KAT.

At the time the question was posed I said you couldnt get a bag of donuts. lol.

If Minny wants to send KAT then it's a done deal!

I'm a big fan of Tatum, but the team is more important.
So KAT for Tatum is good for the Celts.

Unfortunately the Wolves front office is not crazy.
There's no way they would trade KAT for Tatum.
It's just to ridiculous of an idea.

Only way KAT gets traded is if he will ask for a trade and so far that's not happening.

I'm pretty sure Tatum in two years, at age 21, has ALREADY led his team to more playoff success the KAT has. 

Tatum has carried his team to the ECF as the best player on the team, and he did it as a 19 year old rookie.

KAT has struggled on an annual basis to even lead his team to MAKE the playoffs.  He shows no sign of fight, no sign of leadership, and he got exposed by Jimmy Buter as being a soft, lazy prima donna who lacks work ethic and who seems to think that simply standing around while being talented is going to tbe enough to take him to the promised land. 

I'll keep Tatum, thanks.

   He hasn’t carried a team anywhere. It’s debatable if Brown was a better playoff performer ( considering his defense ) but either way he wasn’t the best player on that playoff team. It was Horford by a mile.

Tatum was the Celtic's leading scorer in the playoffs that year, he led the team in scoring most games, he played consistently strong defence, and he madew numerous massive clutch shots. 

You can make an argument that Horford was better then Tatum in that series, as he definitely played well - but when the game was on the line and the Celtics needed a big shot, it was primarily Tatum and Rozier that Brad turned to for those end of game plays - and they delivered.  Horford has rarely ever been that type of guy.  Horford played like a really good vet in those Playoffs, Tatum played like a rising star.

KAT right now is clearly the better player. I don't know for certain long term who will be but its gonna be the safe bet is probably KAT. Tatum could catch up. I don't care about team success  over a single post season when determining who is a foundational piece. I guarantee you no GM is sitting there going "While Tatum scored 19ppg during a playoff run so he's better than Towns."

[saltlover]

Tatum is not for sale
Unless we get Doncic from Dallas in return....

I'd rather KP for this team, no matter how good Doncic is.

This is quite simply the wrong take.  Doncic will never be traded, but you always take the hall-of-fame point-forward who’s 20 and has 1/3 the salary.

[Muzzy66]

Maybe this thread is gonna age just as well as the Smart vs Rozier thread years ago.

Rozier last night was 22-5-6-3 he's doing just fine.

Rozier is a more talented player then Smart, full stop. 

I think i's also perfectly fair to argue fhat for much of the past 3 years he's also been the better overall player.

I haven't been a big Smart fan for a long time now.  You cannot deny the impact h makes on defense and with his energy, but he's always been the type of player who has just as much negative impact with bone head fouls/turnovers and shockingly bad shot selection.

BUT this year I've been impressed.  There have been a couple of stretches where Smart has left me shaking my head, but only one or two - for the most part he's been playing much smarter (pun not intended) and has been letting the game come to him rather then forcing things as he often did in the past.  Now that he's not making countless stupid mistakes every night, it allowed the positive impact plays to really stand out, and so his game is shining brighter then it ever has before.

For the first time since his rookie year, I am really loving the contributions from Smart.  He's finally earning my trust out there, so kudos to Marcus for the the clear maturity he's showing as a player. 

Meantime Rozier is averaging 15.2 points, 5.6 assists and 3.8 rebounds for the Hornets in only 29 minutes a night (while also shooting 42% / 40% / 85%).  Those are very good numbers and clearly proves that  what I have said all along is true - Rozier is a legitimate starting calibre PG in this league, and he was being thoroughly held back by his lack of opporunity in Boston. 

[Muzzy66]

absolutely nothing wrong with this thread or OP he asked what can we get for Tatum...... fair question. What if MN sends KAT.

At the time the question was posed I said you couldnt get a bag of donuts. lol.

If Minny wants to send KAT then it's a done deal!

I'm a big fan of Tatum, but the team is more important.
So KAT for Tatum is good for the Celts.

Unfortunately the Wolves front office is not crazy.
There's no way they would trade KAT for Tatum.
It's just to ridiculous of an idea.

Only way KAT gets traded is if he will ask for a trade and so far that's not happening.

I'm pretty sure Tatum in two years, at age 21, has ALREADY led his team to more playoff success the KAT has. 

Tatum has carried his team to the ECF as the best player on the team, and he did it as a 19 year old rookie.

KAT has struggled on an annual basis to even lead his team to MAKE the playoffs.  He shows no sign of fight, no sign of leadership, and he got exposed by Jimmy Buter as being a soft, lazy prima donna who lacks work ethic and who seems to think that simply standing around while being talented is going to tbe enough to take him to the promised land. 

I'll keep Tatum, thanks.

   He hasn’t carried a team anywhere. It’s debatable if Brown was a better playoff performer ( considering his defense ) but either way he wasn’t the best player on that playoff team. It was Horford by a mile.

Tatum was the Celtic's leading scorer in the playoffs that year, he led the team in scoring most games, he played consistently strong defence, and he madew numerous massive clutch shots. 

You can make an argument that Horford was better then Tatum in that series, as he definitely played well - but when the game was on the line and the Celtics needed a big shot, it was primarily Tatum and Rozier that Brad turned to for those end of game plays - and they delivered.  Horford has rarely ever been that type of guy.  Horford played like a really good vet in those Playoffs, Tatum played like a rising star.

KAT right now is clearly the better player. I don't know for certain long term who will be but its gonna be the safe bet is probably KAT. Tatum could catch up. I don't care about team success  over a single post season when determining who is a foundational piece. I guarantee you no GM is sitting there going "While Tatum scored 19ppg during a playoff run so he's better than Towns."

I never said Tatum is a better player.  I'm saying Tatum is a better WINNER. 

And if you don't think coaches / GM's look at factors like that when evaluating players I assure you, you're dead wrong.

Tatum is 21 and barely into his third season, and if you look atrookie playoff run plus his performance in the last couple of games, it's safe to say he is already shoting flashes of his ability to win / close out games massive clutch performances. 

Once Kyrie went down that rookie year, there were people out there who believeed the Celtics didn't even have the talent to make the playoffs.  Many were sure they'd bow out in the first round.  But they overachieved and almost got to the Finals - and no small part of that was due to the huge play of a certain 19 year old rookie who led the team in scoring during that playoff run and was generally the go-to guy on offense when the coach needed a big shot. Very few rookies in the HISTORY of the NBA have been put in that position and succeeded the way he did.  It demonstrates the extremely rare maturity and composure that Tatum had even as a 19-20 year old rookie. 

By comparison Kat has played on teams that have consistently underachieved relative to their talent level.  Last year the timberwolves were downright STACKED.  Jeff Teague, Andrew Wiggins, Jimmy Butler, Karl Anthony Towns - that should be elite team.  Many in the NBA expected them to be the next big up and coming team and emerge as genuine contenders in the West, and with a roster like that I don't blame them.  Instead they struggled the entire season and finished 11th in the West. 

And on top of that there was the big controversey of Jimmy Butler specifically calling out guys like Karl Anthony Towns for their lack of work ethic and for simply not having what it takes to win.  Towns is basically a Kevin Love 2.0 as far as I can see - dominant numbers on teams that never get anywhere.  At least Love has the benefit of being able to claim the teams he played on didn't have much talent. 

Is Kat is a better individual player then Tatum?  Probably year.  He'sll probably put up better overall statistical numbers for the season.  But who's going to win their team more games?  My money is on Tatum, because he goes out there and makes huge shots (like he just did against the Knicks and Bucks) on a consistent basis.  If we had Kat instead of Tatum our team looks better on paper, but we would probably be 2-3 right now instead of 4-1.  And that stat matters more to me then the box score.

You're certainly permitted to your opinion, I won't naturally won't take that away from you.  And it's not like your position here is unreasonable - KAT is a hell of a talent. I just wouldn't trade Tatum right now, period.  Giannis is probably the only young player in the league right now that I would trade Tatum for (and we all know that ain''t happening). 

Even if you DO want to trade Tatum for KAT, I would recommend being patient and waiting.  Because right now Tatum is shooting about 38% from the field and 72% from the foul line and and is STILL averaging 22 and 8.   If he had shot his standard career numbers (~ 46% FG and 85% FT) then he'd be easilly averaging 25-26 PPG right now. 

With that in mind, if Tatum is averaging 26 points, 2.5 assists and 8 rebounds (on his usual 46% / 40% / 85% shooting) by the All-Star break, at 21, then would you still be so quick to offer him for KAT?  Because if you look at his current production through 5 games, and factor in his historical shooting percentages which he likes returns to, then he could VERY easily be on that trajectory.  And a 26 / 3 / 8 guy who also plays defense is a perennial all-star and probably a top 10 player in the league.

Either way, lets compare Tatum's performance to Fultz' performance and rejoice for Danny's genious haha

[SparzWizard]

We almost traded him for one year of a disgruntled Anthony Davis lol

[Somebody]

absolutely nothing wrong with this thread or OP he asked what can we get for Tatum...... fair question. What if MN sends KAT.

At the time the question was posed I said you couldnt get a bag of donuts. lol.

If Minny wants to send KAT then it's a done deal!

I'm a big fan of Tatum, but the team is more important.
So KAT for Tatum is good for the Celts.

Unfortunately the Wolves front office is not crazy.
There's no way they would trade KAT for Tatum.
It's just to ridiculous of an idea.

Only way KAT gets traded is if he will ask for a trade and so far that's not happening.

I'm pretty sure Tatum in two years, at age 21, has ALREADY led his team to more playoff success the KAT has. 

Tatum has carried his team to the ECF as the best player on the team, and he did it as a 19 year old rookie.

KAT has struggled on an annual basis to even lead his team to MAKE the playoffs.  He shows no sign of fight, no sign of leadership, and he got exposed by Jimmy Buter as being a soft, lazy prima donna who lacks work ethic and who seems to think that simply standing around while being talented is going to tbe enough to take him to the promised land. 

I'll keep Tatum, thanks.

   He hasn’t carried a team anywhere. It’s debatable if Brown was a better playoff performer ( considering his defense ) but either way he wasn’t the best player on that playoff team. It was Horford by a mile.

Tatum was the Celtic's leading scorer in the playoffs that year, he led the team in scoring most games, he played consistently strong defence, and he madew numerous massive clutch shots. 

You can make an argument that Horford was better then Tatum in that series, as he definitely played well - but when the game was on the line and the Celtics needed a big shot, it was primarily Tatum and Rozier that Brad turned to for those end of game plays - and they delivered.  Horford has rarely ever been that type of guy.  Horford played like a really good vet in those Playoffs, Tatum played like a rising star.

KAT right now is clearly the better player. I don't know for certain long term who will be but its gonna be the safe bet is probably KAT. Tatum could catch up. I don't care about team success  over a single post season when determining who is a foundational piece. I guarantee you no GM is sitting there going "While Tatum scored 19ppg during a playoff run so he's better than Towns."

I never said Tatum is a better player.  I'm saying Tatum is a better WINNER. 

And if you don't think coaches / GM's look at factors like that when evaluating players I assure you, you're dead wrong.

Tatum is 21 and barely into his third season, and if you look atrookie playoff run plus his performance in the last couple of games, it's safe to say he is already shoting flashes of his ability to win / close out games massive clutch performances. 

Once Kyrie went down that rookie year, there were people out there who believeed the Celtics didn't even have the talent to make the playoffs.  Many were sure they'd bow out in the first round.  But they overachieved and almost got to the Finals - and no small part of that was due to the huge play of a certain 19 year old rookie who led the team in scoring during that playoff run and was generally the go-to guy on offense when the coach needed a big shot. Very few rookies in the HISTORY of the NBA have been put in that position and succeeded the way he did.  It demonstrates the extremely rare maturity and composure that Tatum had even as a 19-20 year old rookie. 

By comparison Kat has played on teams that have consistently underachieved relative to their talent level.  Last year the timberwolves were downright STACKED.  Jeff Teague, Andrew Wiggins, Jimmy Butler, Karl Anthony Towns - that should be elite team.  Many in the NBA expected them to be the next big up and coming team and emerge as genuine contenders in the West, and with a roster like that I don't blame them.  Instead they struggled the entire season and finished 11th in the West. 

And on top of that there was the big controversey of Jimmy Butler specifically calling out guys like Karl Anthony Towns for their lack of work ethic and for simply not having what it takes to win.  Towns is basically a Kevin Love 2.0 as far as I can see - dominant numbers on teams that never get anywhere.  At least Love has the benefit of being able to claim the teams he played on didn't have much talent. 

Is Kat is a better individual player then Tatum?  Probably year.  He'sll probably put up better overall statistical numbers for the season.  But who's going to win their team more games?  My money is on Tatum, because he goes out there and makes huge shots (like he just did against the Knicks and Bucks) on a consistent basis.  If we had Kat instead of Tatum our team looks better on paper, but we would probably be 2-3 right now instead of 4-1.  And that stat matters more to me then the box score.

You're certainly permitted to your opinion, I won't naturally won't take that away from you.  And it's not like your position here is unreasonable - KAT is a hell of a talent. I just wouldn't trade Tatum right now, period.  Giannis is probably the only young player in the league right now that I would trade Tatum for (and we all know that ain''t happening). 

Even if you DO want to trade Tatum for KAT, I would recommend being patient and waiting.  Because right now Tatum is shooting about 38% from the field and 72% from the foul line and and is STILL averaging 22 and 8.   If he had shot his standard career numbers (~ 46% FG and 85% FT) then he'd be easilly averaging 25-26 PPG right now. 

With that in mind, if Tatum is averaging 26 points, 2.5 assists and 8 rebounds (on his usual 46% / 40% / 85% shooting) by the All-Star break, at 21, then would you still be so quick to offer him for KAT?  Because if you look at his current production through 5 games, and factor in his historical shooting percentages which he likes returns to, then he could VERY easily be on that trajectory.  And a 26 / 3 / 8 guy who also plays defense is a perennial all-star and probably a top 10 player in the league.

Either way, lets compare Tatum's performance to Fultz' performance and rejoice for Danny's genious haha

Yes because KAT's offense (if he maintains his form in his first three games before the ejection against Philly) is devastating: if you quantify offense in three dimensions such as points per 75 possessions (roughly the amount in a normal NBA game), TS% relative to league and assists per 75 possessions (I'm aware that assists do not capture the quality of passing, but I can't find KAT's box creation stats due to a small sample size), he's only matched by the greatest two big man offensive centrepieces ever in Shaquille O'Neal and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He also provides more defensive value due to being a big man who's not an absolute mess on defense. Tatum will need to pump up his passing significantly, ntm upping his scoring volume and efficiency while maintaining or improving his ball security before he can create an offensive advantage large enough to cover for KAT's inherent advantage on defense.

[Muzzy66]

We almost traded him for one year of a disgruntled Anthony Davis lol

Anthony Davis is a LOT better then Karl Anthony Towns.

Edit: IMHO at least

Yes because KAT's offense (if he maintains his form in his first three games before the ejection against Philly) is devastating: if you quantify offense in three dimensions such as points per 75 possessions (roughly the amount in a normal NBA game), TS% relative to league and assists per 75 possessions (I'm aware that assists do not capture the quality of passing, but I can't find KAT's box creation stats due to a small sample size), he's only matched by the greatest two big man offensive centrepieces ever in Shaquille O'Neal and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He also provides more defensive value due to being a big man who's not an absolute mess on defense. Tatum will need to pump up his passing significantly, ntm upping his scoring volume and efficiency while maintaining or improving his ball security before he can create an offensive advantage large enough to cover for KAT's inherent advantage on defense.

KAT's current numbers so far this year are 27.3 points, 11.5 rebounds. 4 assists, 54% FG, 53% 3PT, 63% FT.

His numbers last year were 24.4 points, 12.4 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 52% FG, 40% 3PT, 83% FT.

With the exception of his three point percentage (which I assure you, will not continue to be above 50%), and his extra 3PG (which likely come from those extra threes) his numbers haven't changed much at all since last year - when was constantly putting up glorious numbers in a horribly underachieving Timberwolves team.

So far this year the team is 3-1; I'd like to see if that continues (and how Tatum's progress continues) for at least a good 20-25 games in to the season before I'd even dream of making that move.  Because personally, I really don't care what Towns is doing on a raw box sheet if he continues to prove he is unable to lead a team. 

When you have great players who dont have that clutch mentality you end up with teams like pre-Kawhi Raptors and the Houston Rockets.  Teams that  post amazing regular season records and then get knocked out of the playoffs because their star players just can't bring it when you need it the most.   

It's the reason why it has traditionally been guys like Dwyane Wade, Kyrie Irving and Ray Allen who have been making the game winning playoff shots on Lebron-led teams.  When he hasn't had those guys he's been unable to get it done, because he as great as he is he just isn't that clutch.

Again I can totally understand why you'd be excited about the idea of trading for a guy like KAT, he's clearly a supermely talented player.  But one could argue talent alone only takes you so far.  When it's the playoffs and the game is on the line, I'd rather have Kobe then Lebron - even if Lebron is a better player.  When it's the playoffs and the game is on the line, I'd rather have Paul Pierce then James Harden, even though Westbrook is a better individual player.  When it's the playoffs and the game is on the line, I'd probably rather have Tatum then Karl Anthony Towns, even though KAT is the better player. 

When push comes to shove it's all about heart, and as far as I can see KAT hasn't got any.

I also don't understand your defence comment.  Are you trying to suggest Tatum is an "absolute mess" on defence, or merely stating that KAT isnT?  Because Tatum is certainly not an "absolute mess" on defense.  Far from it.  He has been a plus defender statisticaly ever since the day he entered the league.

[Somebody]

We almost traded him for one year of a disgruntled Anthony Davis lol

Anthony Davis is a LOT better then Karl Anthony Towns.

Yes because KAT's offense (if he maintains his form in his first three games before the ejection against Philly) is devastating: if you quantify offense in three dimensions such as points per 75 possessions (roughly the amount in a normal NBA game), TS% relative to league and assists per 75 possessions (I'm aware that assists do not capture the quality of passing, but I can't find KAT's box creation stats due to a small sample size), he's only matched by the greatest two big man offensive centrepieces ever in Shaquille O'Neal and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He also provides more defensive value due to being a big man who's not an absolute mess on defense. Tatum will need to pump up his passing significantly, ntm upping his scoring volume and efficiency while maintaining or improving his ball security before he can create an offensive advantage large enough to cover for KAT's inherent advantage on defense.

KAT's current numbers so far this year are 27.3 points, 11.5 rebounds. 4 assists, 54% FG, 53% 3PT, 63% FT.

His numbers last year were 24.4 points, 12.4 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 52% FG, 40% 3PT, 83% FT.

With the exception of his three point percentage (which I assure you, will not continue to be above 50%), and his extra 3PG (which likely come from those extra threes) his numbers haven't changed much at all since last year - when was constantly putting up glorious numbers in a horribly underachieving Timberwolves team.

So far this year the team is 3-1; I'd like to see if that continues (and how Tatum's progress continues) for at least a good 20-25 games in to the season before I'd even dream of making that move.  Because personally, I really don't care what Towns is doing on a raw box sheet if he continues to prove he is unable to lead a team. 

When you have great players who dont have that clutch mentality you end up with teams like pre-Kawhi Raptors and the Houston Rockets.  Teams that  post amazing regular season records and then get knocked out of the playoffs because their star players just can't bring it when you need it the most.   

It's the reason why it has traditionally been guys like Dwyane Wade, Kyrie Irving and Ray Allen who have been making the game winning playoff shots on Lebron-led teams.  When he hasn't had those guys he's been unable to get it done, because he as great as he is he just isn't that clutch.

Again I can totally understand why you'd be excited about the idea of trading for a guy like KAT, he's clearly a supermely talented player.  But one could argue talent alone only takes you so far.  When it's the playoffs and the game is on the line, I'd rather have Kobe then Lebron - even if Lebron is a better player.  When it's the playoffs and the game is on the line, I'd rather have Paul Pierce then James Harden, even though Westbrook is a better individual player.  When it's the playoffs and the game is on the line, I'd probably rather have Tatum then Karl Anthony Towns, even though KAT is the better player. 

When push comes to shove it's all about heart, and as far as I can see KAT hasn't got any.

I did say excluding from that game against Philly-I think the ejection shouldn't be viewed as a normal game from Towns. His averages in the three dimensions I mentioned (excluding the Philly game) are: 32.55 points and 5.1 assists per 75 possessions (elite passing bigs like Garnett peaked at around 6) on +11.1% TS. These are transcendent figures, and the eye test backs them up: he has a devastating scoring game that combines efficient volume scoring from all three levels with improved passing that can uncork high value passes. He's clearly improved his game this season, and I rate his offense (assuming that his stats stabilise to something like 27-30 points per 75 and 4-6 assists per 75 on +6-10% TS) on par with the two great centers I mentioned. I think he'll be able to drag this Minnesota team to the playoffs this season, and possibly lead them to a deep playoff run if the ball bounces their way simple based on how devastating his offense is after his recent maturation.

I also don't believe in the "clutch gene" at all-basketball is a high variance game that is affected by factors that one player can't control. What I do rate is how "resilient" a player's offense is, namely how does their offensive game hold up against playoff defenses. I think KAT's current offense will hold up well against playoff defenses-it's incredibly hard to take away efficient volume scoring from all three levels of the court, and KAT's improved passing ability allows him to make things even harder for defenses since he can now take advantage of double teams and find high leverage passes after warping the defense with the threat of his offensive game.

I love Tatum but I'd take KAT over him every day of the week and twice on Sundays. His offense is reaching transcendency to go along with his improving defense.

Btw I meant KAT with my comment on defense. Tatum is a positive on defense, but his defensive value as a wing will always be lower than a passable defensive big due to the inherent ability of big men to alter high percentage looks near the basket that usually hold the highest offensive value, as well as provide valuable help defense to blow up plays.

[Muzzy66]

We almost traded him for one year of a disgruntled Anthony Davis lol

Anthony Davis is a LOT better then Karl Anthony Towns.

Yes because KAT's offense (if he maintains his form in his first three games before the ejection against Philly) is devastating: if you quantify offense in three dimensions such as points per 75 possessions (roughly the amount in a normal NBA game), TS% relative to league and assists per 75 possessions (I'm aware that assists do not capture the quality of passing, but I can't find KAT's box creation stats due to a small sample size), he's only matched by the greatest two big man offensive centrepieces ever in Shaquille O'Neal and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. He also provides more defensive value due to being a big man who's not an absolute mess on defense. Tatum will need to pump up his passing significantly, ntm upping his scoring volume and efficiency while maintaining or improving his ball security before he can create an offensive advantage large enough to cover for KAT's inherent advantage on defense.

KAT's current numbers so far this year are 27.3 points, 11.5 rebounds. 4 assists, 54% FG, 53% 3PT, 63% FT.

His numbers last year were 24.4 points, 12.4 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 52% FG, 40% 3PT, 83% FT.

With the exception of his three point percentage (which I assure you, will not continue to be above 50%), and his extra 3PG (which likely come from those extra threes) his numbers haven't changed much at all since last year - when was constantly putting up glorious numbers in a horribly underachieving Timberwolves team.

So far this year the team is 3-1; I'd like to see if that continues (and how Tatum's progress continues) for at least a good 20-25 games in to the season before I'd even dream of making that move.  Because personally, I really don't care what Towns is doing on a raw box sheet if he continues to prove he is unable to lead a team. 

When you have great players who dont have that clutch mentality you end up with teams like pre-Kawhi Raptors and the Houston Rockets.  Teams that  post amazing regular season records and then get knocked out of the playoffs because their star players just can't bring it when you need it the most.   

It's the reason why it has traditionally been guys like Dwyane Wade, Kyrie Irving and Ray Allen who have been making the game winning playoff shots on Lebron-led teams.  When he hasn't had those guys he's been unable to get it done, because he as great as he is he just isn't that clutch.

Again I can totally understand why you'd be excited about the idea of trading for a guy like KAT, he's clearly a supermely talented player.  But one could argue talent alone only takes you so far.  When it's the playoffs and the game is on the line, I'd rather have Kobe then Lebron - even if Lebron is a better player.  When it's the playoffs and the game is on the line, I'd rather have Paul Pierce then James Harden, even though Westbrook is a better individual player.  When it's the playoffs and the game is on the line, I'd probably rather have Tatum then Karl Anthony Towns, even though KAT is the better player. 

When push comes to shove it's all about heart, and as far as I can see KAT hasn't got any.

I did say excluding from that game against Philly-I think the ejection shouldn't be viewed as a normal game from Towns. His averages in the three dimensions I mentioned (excluding the Philly game) are: 32.55 points and 5.1 assists per 75 possessions (elite passing bigs like Garnett peaked at around 6) on +11.1% TS. These are transcendent figures, and the eye test backs them up: he has a devastating scoring game that combines efficient volume scoring from all three levels with improved passing that can uncork high value passes. He's clearly improved his game this season, and I rate his offense (assuming that his stats stabilise to something like 27-30 points per 75 and 4-6 assists per 75 on +6-10% TS) on par with the two great centers I mentioned. I think he'll be able to drag this Minnesota team to the playoffs this season, and possibly lead them to a deep playoff run if the ball bounces their way simple based on how devastating his offense is after his recent maturation.

I also don't believe in the "clutch gene" at all-basketball is a high variance game that is affected by factors that one player can't control. What I do rate is how "resilient" a player's offense is, namely how does their offensive game hold up against playoff defenses. I think KAT's current offense will hold up well against playoff defenses-it's incredibly hard to take away efficient volume scoring from all three levels of the court, and KAT's improved passing ability allows him to make things even harder for defenses since he can now take advantage of double teams and find high leverage passes after warping the defense with the threat of his offensive game.

I love Tatum but I'd take KAT over him every day of the week and twice on Sundays. His offense is reaching transcendency to go along with his improving defense.

Btw I meant KAT with my comment on defense. Tatum is a positive on defense, but his defensive value as a wing will always be lower than a passable defensive big due to the inherent ability of big men to alter high percentage looks near the basket that usually hold the highest offensive value, as well as provide valuable help defense to blow up plays.

I certainly see what you are saying about KAT, though I defintely do not agree with you around the "clutch" argument.  There is plenty of statistical information out there to show that some guys simply make more clutch shots (and/or shoot ahigher percentage in the clutch) then others.  Some guys savour the big moments and excel in them, while others fold under the pressure. 

It's something even NBA GM's and coaches are well aware of.  Danny Ainge during an interview (I think it was in the postseason) made a comment about Carson Edwads something along the lines of "he lives for those moments and makes big shots, and that's definitely one of the things you at when scouting players".  It's unquestionably a thing. 

Now you can argue that it's often irrelevant, because if you are good enough to dominate your opponent, then you will never need clutch shots.  But how many games did Boston in the Big-3 era win games because of the late game heroics of guys like Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett - even when matched up against better players?  How many games did we win a few years back because of late game heroics from Isaiah Thomas?

I also think leadership is huge.  I think the whole scenario with Kyrie last season proved that.  I think KAT's talent is undeniable, but I just don't think he has the mentality to carry a team to a championship.

Maybe it could work as a Lebron/Kyrie type scenario, where KAT is your best player but Kemba is your closer - possible that could work.  But I just don't like the idea of relying so much on a guy who simply hasn't proven he's capable of winning, and a guy who has been exposed by other stars in the league for being "soft". 

As for the argument over bigs vs wings, I do understand your defensive argument.  At the same time though, the league does seem to be dominated by wings rightn now.  Most of the title winning teams over the past decade have been led by great wings or guards.  Most of the most dominat players in the league are wings.  Giannis, Kawhi, Lebron and Durant have arguably been the most dominant and game changing guys in the league the past several years.  Those are the guys you need to be able to contend with if you want to compete for titles.  Jayson Tatum, if he realises his potential, could well develop in to the type of guy who can compete with those players. He has the physical gifts for it and the talent.

As for bigs - the only bigs in the league I can think of that we really need to worrya bout are Anthony Davis in LA and Joel Embiid in Philly.  Neither has proven themselves as being winners yet,and both are hugely injury prone. 

There's also someting special about the fact that Jayson is our guy - we drafted him, we developed him from the ground up.  He's been a Celtic from day one, is a face of the franchise, and I feel there's something special about thst.  .

I also just really love his personality.  He's modest, yet has the confidence to take the big shot every time.  He's smart, yet still eager to learn and highly coachable.  Prideful, yet still has immense respect for his his opponents and those who came before him. He seems like the type of personality that other guys around the league would just love to play with and coaches would love to coach.  Not saying KAT isn't (as he seems like a nice guy too), but in KAT's case that niceness seems to come at the cost of some other important trats (confidence, leadership, toughness) while Tatum doesn't seem to have same weaknesses as far as I can see.

Either way I totally get your reasoning and dont blame you at all for feeling that way, I just personally don't feel the same way  

Also here is a nice little link that I enjoyed reading:
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/jayson-tatums-biggest-moment-came-after-his-first-career-winner